Approaching eruption nerf
Comments
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Exactly!
I often use non meta perks. Because the others don´t expect it.
We have great perks with good value. But because famous streamers don´t use them. People consider them crap.
Right after the meta shakeup, there was a great time where everything was possible. Everyday streamers tried new crazy builds and people tested them. It was wild and fresh and exactly what this game needs. Not the same 5 perks that come every match. Real variation.
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Well i can say the same for Eruption then, i'd rather bring other slowdown but they are awful so..
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Or be me, play Pyramid Head with IamAllEars/LethalPursuer/AwakenedAwareness/NowhereToHide and mercilessly ferret them out and hunt them down before they can get all their gens done. This is gen slowdown the fun way. The Chad Killer way.
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Oh that really was the best time, no questions asked. You saw all kinda perks, everything was wild and new and fun and crazy .... and if you cornered a survivor or got to them in tje open ... you could just swing. No second guessing. No baiting it out. No questioning your lifes decisions. No indecisions. No "if you outplayed them, but they DH to safety, did you really outplay them, anon? *smirk* "Just swing and down. Ahhhh ... but of course, it wouldn't last.
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If you pull it off..Old DH was universally good , no ifs no conditions,all you needed was an E button on your keyboard
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but the old dh won much less time
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Yeah but it was also used much differently,,it was used to guarantee reaching a window or pallet mostly,,and while it didnt offer a speed boost there was nothing the killer could do about it ,at least on current state there's some counterplay
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People "pull it off" in the majority of my killer games. Stop pretending like this is some sort of rare thing.
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- 40sec of gen regression on a single succesful activation
- 30sec CD for the previously 40sec regressing effect
- Can be used on multiple gens
- Has no other cost than the time you spend kicking a gen
- Synergises extremely well with other meta perks
- Uncounterable for the mayority of players not using comms.
- Has the means to produce +30min long games.
- The only perk that produces a debuff usually reserved to killer' powers (incapacitation)
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What can i say..maybe you got god survivors more often that the rest :) good for you,,you probably are in the top mmr :)
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No, only that sometimes, usually when I'm half asleep, I write as a reaction to the text and without thinking much about the details. You can see it akin to being drunk. (Although I've learned to never go as far as getting hallucinations anymore.) In these cases, I usually admit my mistake and move on. (Which I did, before finally falling asleep.)
Note that in this specific case, I've never been in a situation where any of these points was an issue.
- I usually try to be alone on my gen (parallelism is key)
- I usually drop the gen when I feel or know a survivor is about to go down (among other expected other game "events" unrelated to this perk). If I misjudge, I usually move away or go for an unhook (depending on how close the hit happened). I don't run so the 25 seconds aren't an issue to me.
- If I'm not alone in my gen, I'm in a chase or going for an unhook.
In essence, Eruption seldom has any effect on me.
It's a puzzle so many seem to be unaware of the state of the match so often as to be bitten. (Or it's like these player who pretend they only go against god Nurses and Blights and that's all the killers they verse ... a slight exaggeration)
Maybe the new survivor indicators will help in some extent.
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I actually sandbag the bejeezus out of my MMR. I play for lulz, not to sweat. I'm the guy that lets the No Mither go and spares any survivor that remotely entertains me.
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Yes, but when DH extends a chase by 25 seconds the killer and survivor are still playing the game afterwards while eruption leaves the survivor doing nothing for 25 seconds. If the killer is kicking gens instead of chasing survivors then you remove player vs player interaction in the PVP game and because eruption can be used once per gen per down.
I won't argue DH doesn't have its issue for game health but while it may be unfun to play against you are at least playing the game when it wastes your time, instead of sitting around doing nothing. There are other perks that encourage killers to go around kicking gens like call of brine and overcharge but those perks also encourage the killer to chase survivors off the gen after kicking it to get the regression, instead of going to the next gen and repeating; they also don't stun for 25 seconds. Eruption's problems are most not unique but they're a unique combination of problems that make it stand out as an issue. Balance aside, if you can show me someone who loads into the game with the intent to play it and then enjoys being stunned for 25 seconds for trying to play the game please do but I do not believe anyone finds the effect of a 25-second stun interesting to play against when it's a punishment for the thing you're supposed to be doing.
Finally, ruin undying wasn't healthy IMO although was healthier than eruption, assuming we're talking about release undying. I liked the fact it did encourage killers to actively chase survivors and that part of the game played out as normal but the fact survivors had to cleanse a random number of totems means even if you could find all the totems quickly because you're skilled and know all the totem spawns, you'd lose because spending time to cleanse 5 totems while ruin is active does lose you the game regardless of efficiency and not cleansing ruin would usually lose you the game against a competent killer. Just because eruption came after ruin undying doesn't mean that every meta will be worse after eruption, that's an absurd extrapolation based on no good reasoning. Looking at it it could be fair to assume that pain res could become meta or maybe no way out and deadlock which are generally considered to be fine to play against, at least in my experience.
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-(a) It removes a player's ability to play for a significant amount of time. That is not healthy game design
-(b) It disproportionately affects one group more than the other (solos vs swf). That makes it frustrating for the group that's affected worse and makes it harder to determine if balancing is required.
-Reworking it into a blocked gen effect instead of giving the incapacitated status would still leave the perk strong
There's a very simple fix for eruption.
- Increase reset timer to 45 seconds
- Remove incapacitated status.
- When the perk triggers make the generator(s) not be able to be interacted with for 45 seconds
- Now using Eruption will trigger a soft "reset" on that generator
- It affects solo and SWF equally.
Blocking gens is counterproductive to generator regression. Eruption is a regression perk not a blocking perk. We need a new "status" type for generators where they cannot be interrupted. Just as an example we could call the new generator status : overloaded.
On this note I would suggest kicking a generator with Overcharge should apply this new effect that prevents a generator from being interrupted for 20 seconds.
Instead of removing the player's ability to act you give them a choice knowing they can't do the generator that they want to do.
(BHVR you can hire me at any time to fix all the little problems in your game).
"The problem with dead Hard is that it gives you a third health state. "
So why doesn't the mend from DH actually take 45 seconds like an "Actual" full heal from self care? Since Dead Hard is giving you a third health state you should need to mend as if you were healing a third health state - not a mend. Note : Legion hitting you with his power would still be a 15 second mend but if you DH a legion swing then you would have to heal the DH deep wound for 45 seconds.
We could just change dead hard with the following text: Using Dead hard makes you take 100% longer for ALL heal actions performed on you.
This is more simple and would make DH "save" less time as you lose time healing repeatedly. Now you are unlikely to heal and just play the game hurt.
This would give you a third health state AND make you pay for that extra health state by requiring more time investment.
DH before was not able to be countered when you used it to make distance to a pallet/window. When It got changed it did NOT get nerfed. DH is still being used by the most skillful players to make chases last much longer.
There is no "penalty" for having a third health state. That part needs to change.
If healing took 100% longer with DH then people would use Adrenaline/Resilience and play the game hurt. They would have 2 health stats without healing. It would kill the "third health state".
Have you noticed by the way that nobody is using Borrowed Time anymore? Survivors just have 5 perks now.
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Overcharge is useless against swf because playing in a team magically grants the ability to hit skill checks to players?
Also as @edgarpoop mentioned, the best teams in the world get hit by eruption, and it's considered a problem by very high level players too. Let's quit with this (false) narrative that eruption is "meh" or "useless" against swfs. Because it's not
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Ya cuz that 80 seconds you spent on the gen that just blew up in your face wasn’t valuable time, as well as it being part of a 3 gen where one of them has to get done for you to win the game
if they have no hex perks totems are a waste of time and pretty sure you can’t even do them while incapacitated
this as well is a bad take, obv you can do it but many scenarios would make it a bad idea and waste of time
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any average dbd player will be able to make skill checks even with their eyes closed, for the sake of testing, I recently played Merciless storm + build for skill checks through the doctor, in 5 games only twice people failed the skill check
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That’s not how balancing works in games, nerfing one sides perk doesn’t mean you HAVE to nerf a perk on the other side too. Eruption and DH are not comparable at all
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I'd want DH's speedboost to be only 1s instead of 1.8s
It granting the same amount of injury speedboost when you're already injured is the one reason i'd say it's a third health state.
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in my opinion it would be better if it slowed down the healing, so it will be more often 2 than 3
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I swear, there was once a fantastic rolling eyes emoji that I can't find anymore.
But...sigh. Okay, let me explain this one as simply as I can and hope that I can substitute for a bit of common sense.
- When I'm saying 'an SWF' I'm not talking about a group of brand new players all having to play with their feet because of a coincidental treadmill accident. I'm talking about at least an intermediate group with a fair bit of organization. Not necessarily a comp squad, but can hit skillchecks.
- If I, at maybe 100 hours of survivor, can hit maybe six Hyperfocus 'greats' in a row, then outside of skillcheck builds, almost nobody is having problems hitting Overcharge, and those that are - are so new that they can't really be balanced around. No, you cannot balance your game around brand new players, and if that's what you're proposing then...yeah, that's silly.
- 'Meh'. Mediocre. Not useless. Slightly better than most of the other options, which are worse - aside from CoB. Which is why these are paired together.
- How exactly are organized groups getting hit by this? I can anticipate it about half the time in solo queue.
- Okay, let's say that 1 player in the match gets Erupted because the SWF had a brain fart and nobody called out that 'hey, this guy is kicking all the gens, anticipate Eruption and call it out over voicecoms before you go down'. That perk is still meh. That perk would still be meh if two people get erupted. It's only oppressive when you're...basically already winning.
- Why are we even having this discussion. The perk is going to get nerfed - devs confirmed this. Almost certainly going to get Thana'd.
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Couldn't care less what high level SWF players have to say about how Eruption is unfair and still works on SWF. They just want to 4-man escape every game. Comp Nurses get 2 hooks on Hens team and she needs to be gutted though. These teams want to 0 hook every killer each game
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As far as organized teams getting hit with it: an inner monologue is a lot quicker than verbalizing "I might go down here" on top of reacting to the call out. If you get into killers like Huntress, then it becomes an issue of cluttered comms. Are you calling out every time she winds up a hatchet? "I'm going down/I'm fine/I'm going down/I'm fine/I'm dead". Other stuff has to be communicated in an optimized setting like that. People are talking about saves, positioning, gen progress, etc. Being too granular on Eruption call outs can come at the expense of everything else that has to be communicated. But if you're too broad on Eruption call outs, it's like guessing in solo queue: players might end up standing next to a gen for the equivalent of 5% of gen progress, and it's almost not worth playing around at that point.
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I'd rather just throw the whole thing out of the game instead of trying to "fix" it.
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The only part where killer has no real options is in a pallet,,,and even then they can walk through and try to swing if they read you correctly about having DH stop pulling things like " no choice" out of ur head ,
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Name checks out I see.
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Funny once again:
The Devs will change some perks = good
Any hints? of course! Here we show you that you have succeeded by crying loud and multiple times! Eruption get nerfed.
Here is an Idea: If you spoil a perk-nerf on one side, how about doing the same on the other ( Deadhard ! Circle of Healing ! )
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EXACTLY this is how it feels.
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Yes, you dont know if the survivor in front of you has deadhard, so just walk through the pallet, assuming he has it, get stunned, because you waited a Ghosty Deadhard out, dont get the down and the hook, couldnt defend the gen etc.
Snowball with 1 incorrect assumption.
Survivors gets all the infos in the world: Here my Tip: Give Killers the information if the guy in front of you has Deadhard or not. Unfair? Well, seeing Gen-Progress in the HUD is unfair (current "Known Issue").
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Survivors gettin info has nothing to do with your skill / chase time as killer ,they are two different things
what they can and should do is buff weaker killers as a unit ,not universal killer buffs
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should be both, m1 killer is a joke in itself
m1 killer even without the ability should be a threat
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I mean if that happens it's your own fault
If you actually get stunned while waiting out dh then they can just do the same thing on the next pallet.
If a survivor vaults a window you also wouldn't not go around it just in case they have lithe
The real trick with dead hard is to be unpredictable. Don't always wait it out, survivors expect that. Sometimes swing right away, sometimes wait a bit
If the survivor keeps getting it right swing at the other side of a pallet to see if they are cheating.
IMO the only nerf dead hard needs is that there is a small timeframe before the endurance kicks in to avoid it getting scripted. Like you press e and 0.25 seconds later you get endurance for 0.5 seconds.
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dead hard can't hold a 3 gen for an hour tho can it lol
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Roadmap indicates more meta shake ups. Which sounds almost to good to be true.
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Dead Hard can counter an eruption proc and win the game.
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- requires that survivors repair the kicked gen at the exact moment of the down.
- CD isn´t the issue here.
- Means that the killer probably breaks multiple chases to kick the gen.
- having several seconds of a head start often means that a chase takes (much) longer than without said head start. SB for example often leads killers to just break the chase. Because a survivor could get to a safe tile in time. This isn´t any different. So it clearly has a cost.
- whats wrong about synergies?
- Eruption has no effect for the first 2-3 gens. The remaining gens require progress to be kicked. Progress means that survivors are nearby when the killer kicks the gen and starts the chase. The other survivor have then the option to either do a different gen or to pay more attention to whats happening around them. The killer usually will be downing the survivor in line of sight and not at the other end of the map.
- how exactly? Killer needs a down to get the effect. Down usually means a hook. In order to have 30+ minute games the killer would need to get over 25 downs. No one ever complained about the old Pop allowing for 30+ minute games. When it gave a stronger regress.
- unnerving and overwhelming presence have entered the chat.
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Survivors affected by Eruption can still get healed. Either by survivors that are not affected or by perks like Inner strength. Affected survivors can still run around and get closer the the hook, a better positioned gen and by the time they reach it, the cd is over.
Undying Ruin was a extremely healthy perk combo. For the simple fact that it encouraged killers to constantly switch targets (aka not tunnel or camp). Survivors could cleanse hex totems in order to get rid of it, but were not forced to. As Ruin simply has no effect on gens that are being worked on. Most of the time i simply ignored the Ruin effect. As it made no difference. Ideally the killer chases one and the others repair gens. Even when that means that a previously almost finished gen is regressing. As the 200% regression timer is still 1/2 the speed of a single survivor repairing.
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We were promised by BHVR that we could anticipate the new dead hard, but that never happened. Some survivors are using dead hard ON REACTION to a killer lunge or certain killer powers. That means we can't anticipate dead hard in those situations. Literally waiting for the survivor to use dead hard before making an attack isn't anticipation. That's not what that word means. Telling certain killers to stop using their special attacks, and walk into point blank range of the survivor, then waiting a few seconds in point blank range, then tapping M1.... that's not anticipating dead hard either.
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Wait, it's guaranteed now? Last time I tried using it, it went off, didn't count, I was dead with exhaustion up as if I used it because of how bad their servers are.
Also my ping is always the lowest at 30, and I absolutely hit the button properly, it's not my problem the killer has bad internet. But never in my life had DH been guaranteed.
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What about shorter pallet break, shorter hit recovery, survivors getting less distance after a hit, 2,5% instant regress after gen kick.
You suddenly forgot those things.
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- And? Are you implying that is rare for a survivor to be repairing a generator that has been kicked? The problem with eruption comes the fewer gens are where it is likely that all gens are kicked.
- How is not CD a thing? I already wrote that you have 10 less sec of CD that one single succesful activation, meaning that you'll probably be never affected by Eruption's own CD while playing normally.
- Not really, killers can just make a stand in an area with a built in 3-gen and kick gens as they are being repaired and only commiting to chase when all 3 are kicked. Remember Eruption does not deactivate even if the gen regresses to 0.
- But for a potentially 40sec of regression the mere 2sec you are kicking the gen is a great trade off. Plus, if you are using the current meta builds you are probably also using Brine to know if that gen was touched and Nowhere to hide to reveal nearby survs, so the cost is really small compared to its pay off.
- Means that not only Eruption is severely overtuned, it also synergises well with other strong current meta perks. This makes it the more frustrating to play against.
- First, the first 3 gens are usually not affected by eruption, true. The problem comes with the last two that will be spammed over and over with this. (Remember 30sec CD).
Second, The decision of repairing another gen or "pay attention to your surroundings". Would you leave your 50% gen or 30%gen to regress to 0 because you dont want to be hit by Eruption just to start on another gen that you also dont know if it has been hit with eruption? (Remember Eruption does not deactivate even if gen reverts to 0).
And the killer is usually downing a survivor in line of sight is a fairy tale. Really. Being generous, Like 90% of chases you will never see the full extent of the chase while repairing. Indoor maps exist, walls exist, main builiding exists, rocks, trees. You are delusional to believe you can consistently see the chase while at the same time repairing an eruptioned gen.
- killer protects gen A, B and C. Surv tries gen A, killer hits surv and kicks gen A, killer return to gen area and survs escapes injured. Another surv tries gen c, killer hits surv and kicks gen C, and so on. Whenever a surv overstays on a gen, the killer downs him and all 3 gens explodes.
- what?
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Yeah I'm stealing this.
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- realistically. How often does a survivor get hit by eruption in a match. I don´t know about your matches, but i´ve never been hit more than twice.
- still not an issue.
- in that situation it could be considered that both sides (or none) keep the game hostage equally.
- you trade information for a head start. In your example, the killer would take a quick look around and lose even more time to the head start. Have you considered taking Deja Vu?
- frustation is subjective. People found Undying Ruin frustrating, when it was actually the least frustrating thing we had in a long time. You are only seeing the bad things about Eruption and refuse to see the advantages for survivors.
- can be solved with Deja Vu. Like completely.
- so the injured survivor goes back to the 3 gen area while the killer kicks all gens? Like... really?
- unnerving and overwhelming presence are both perks that apply a debuff to survivors. Eruption isn´t the only debuff perk.
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No I said it went FROM guaranteed 3rd health state (before perk rework) to guaranteed against m2s which I should reword to most m2's. Now its a lot more fair to face agaisnt m1's which was a bane of their existance before the rework.
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Have u ever played killer? These changes do nothing for the chase. The next pallet is there as before. I would trade this unbelievable 10% of kicking anything with love into Toolbox- and Medkit-Nerfs.
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Sure let's talk about those values!
Shorter pallet break: .26 seconds faster
Survivors getting less distance when hit: .2 seconds shorter
Cooldown on hit: .3 seconds faster
Mini pop: 2.5% = .025 * 90 = 2.25 seconds of gen progress removed with a 1.8 second animation of kicking is bad. I have yet to see a single case where a gen is at 90%, it gets kicked, and the survivor player says "oh man I really shouldn't tap that gen...I might lose 2.25 seconds of progress!"
So fractions of seconds are super impactful and good right? Did that apply to base kit BT that was given to survivors as well? We went from the perk only providing 13 seconds of endurance to the base version lasting 10 seconds with a 7% haste and the buffed perk version lasting a staggering 20 seconds with haste, did STBFL/brutal strength(the most comparable perks on the killer side) get a buff on that level?
Being real, the only impactful 6.1.0 changes were the DH change and the +10 seconds to gens along with the eruption change. I would imagine any killer would happily trade any of the above insignificant values for old pop/ruin/CI/thana back. We can even try to explore and see how big of an impact some of the above are. Let's take a look at the .2 second sprint burst nerf and try to see how big of a physical meter distance it is
old sprint burst on hit: (4.0 * 1.65) * 2 = 13.2 meters gained from a hit
new sprint burst on hit: (4.0 * .2) + (4.0 * 1.65 * 1.8) = 11.88 meters gained from a hit
so the survivor will get 1.32 meters less than before, now this isn't accounting for the hit cooldown as well, but I promise it is just as minor as the sprint burst reduction. Am I saying that the changes did nothing? No, but I am saying that they also suddenly didn't impact every single chase in the game or have even a large impact on killers overall, using the math above I can say that unless you were within ~1.32 meters of a vault/pallet when you get hit while in chase from healthy -> down then the change didn't do anything.
Since all of these changes dropped at once we can't really isolate and point at any one thing being the cause of the kill rates increasing but if I had to guess a real cause it was the nerf to DH(50-80% perk useage across mid and high MMR survivors), extra 10 seconds on gens, and the eruption buff. I doubt it was really the 1.32 meter delta change in chase that suddenly made killers feel extremely strong when 6.1.0 dropped.
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eruption isnt a fun toy its a "Hey, you had no idea of knowing for sure when someone could go down, you can now do nothing for 30 seconds"
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I want to add: reverse the Pharmacy and Botany Knowledge nerfs too
Yes, BK nerf. 33% of speed was enough and it didn't ruin medkits.
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There is never a "no other choice"
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