General Discussions
General Discussions
Glenvale offering changed?
Doesn't really matter I'm just curious why?
Comments
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Thanks
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I don't get why they changed the noose offering but there's a guy hanging dead from a noose here - mixed messages.
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That's very clearly not related to suicide though.
That's lynching. Something that's still abhorrent, but not at all related to self-harm.
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I was going to leave this alone but since you brought it up......
Hanging oneself is a tactic, but according to this website, https://sprc.org/scope/means-suicide the top 3 are firearms, poisoning, and suffocation. Which across all age groups represent 87-93% of all suicides.
The noose hasn't been culturally relevant for close to a century in the USA.
Ultimately I find it odd that, an object so seldomly used for suicide, to be removed for that reason. Especially from a company based in a country who's government actively brags about the number of assisted suicides performed since legalizing the practice.
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Well, no. It isn't lynching either, it is an execution, hence the gallows.
My point is, if the image of a noose has possible connotations to hanging by suicide, then an image of a man being hung to death by a noose, can share those connotations. So if they have removed one, it seems odd to leave the other (one which I consider much more graphic)
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That is not lynching, it is a public execution in the wild west, he is on gallows.
If they removed the offering, it seems odd to leave this person hanging in the game.
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Ngl, I thought execution by hanging was called lynching.
My point still stands, though. Execution and extreme self-harm are very, very different things.
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I think lynching is more death by hanging by a mob or citizens then by the government or authority. Or in lesser words unlawful execution.
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Yup
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It makes thematic sense, almost nobody refers to it as the gallows map, almost everyone calls it the saloon map, so a broken bottle from a barfight is more relevant to the map than a noose from the gallows.
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I agree with you on that. A broken bottle makes a ton of sense. I was just curious why they changed it.
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It's because the offering doesn't have any super obvious context in its imagery, the gallows themselves give contextual proof that it wasn't a suicide
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Ever heard of that thing called "search bar" or that other thing called "Google"?
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The difference there is that is an execution and self-harm is inflicted upon one's self.
Self-harm and being killed because you are a criminal are two completely different things.
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I feel like now would be an excellent time to point out that that data is exclusively for the United States of America, and more countries exist in the world and play dbd than the USA.
Edit: After all, if we look at the UK (as reported by the Office of National Statistics), hanging is the most common form of suicide, accounting for ~54. 2% of all suicides.
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Look into Canada
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Good point.
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Why is this such an issue? Literally who cares? They changed an image to avoid a trigger. Idk why people need to complain about that.
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Rather unfortunately there isn't a big government body that collects all of the relevant information and presents it neatly into a simple document so the data is rather scattered and outdated, but during the 80s and 90s hanging and firearms were almost joint for first place, and almost 90% of all suicides were from firearms, hanging, poisoning, gases, and jumping (in that order).
Meanwhile, a study conducted on all suicides between 1990 and 2005 found strangulation and suffocation (presumably via hanging) to be the biggest cause.
According to the Canadian Vital Statistics Death Database, hanging was the leading cause of suicide from 2000-2009, accounting for 44% of all suicides.
This was published in 2017, and there isn't a more recent version that I can find.
All I know for sure is after researching this I'm currently on a watch list.
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I wasn't complaining. Just curious.
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On the other hand, it is weird some of the interesting stuff you discover researching random topics because of an internet forum about a video game centered around murder and torture.
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Wasn't directed at you. Just always see people on these threads like "they should've left it as is"
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Did anyone with BHVR ever mention why it was changed, or are people here just speculating?
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Yes, one of the devs made a statement on the PTB forums.
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It's interesting that they would remove an image of a noose in a gory serial killer game in the name of mental health, yet they perpetuate negative stereotypes and misconceptions of mental health treatment. ECT is the one of the most effective yet stigmatized treatments in all of medicine. Negative depictions of ECT further marginalize those who receive it and contribute to the stigma surrounding the treatment. It's a great disservice to a vulnerable group of people.
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If you’ll want to argue that, I’d use a similar argument Pixel Bush cited as to how Hellraiser does not reflect negatively of BDSM culture, despite its very heavy allusions to it.
Replace Hellraiser with Dead by Daylight, and you got yourself an argument as to why nobody will see Doc as proper representation of what ECT is like. He’s well beyond the natural, and is an unapologetic psychopath through and through. Nobody’s gonna go “oh so thats what ECT is like” and refrain from it entirely.
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Show me one person in this post right now claiming it should’ve been left the way it was, c’mon I’m waiting. People are calling out BHVR for being hypocrites, why did they remove the noose offering for being associated with suicide and self-harm while keeping the guy that has been literally hanged to death ingame?
It makes zero sense, you either remove all noose and suicide related things in the game or none.
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You can spend an entire match and not be forced to go to the gallows, you can also not choose to go to that area for personal reasons.
The noose offering was thrust in your face, the game goes: "Here, have a noose!"
It should be obvious to anyone why the offering was changed. You cant avoid the offering popping up, but you can certainly have a say in the areas of the map you approach and point your camera to.
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sweetie did you read my comments in this thread
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Suicide and Lynching Iconography is why.
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I looked it up for Germany and hanging (in combination with strangulation and asphyxiation) was the most common suicide method in 2021 aswell.
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Was that hanging a voluntary willing excursion of that man or, given historical context and the ability to put 2 and 2 together, do you think that specific example was more of a public execution and more of a personal unaliving?
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I thought they changed it because they didn’t want people to confuse it as an offering for the Borgo or whatever Vittorio/Knight’s realm is. That one also has gallows, and they’re actually more prominent than Dead Dog’s.
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Kind of contradicting yourself? Saying nobody is complaining then literally complaining about it. And nobody has said it directly, but a lot of people are questioning why it needed to change when the gallows is there, implying it shouldn't be changed.
It's a bit nitpicky but the gallows is a whole structure set up for execution, not suicide. Noose on It's own is a pretty strong symbol for suicide.
My real point is I don't see why people need to question or complain about it. They changed to picture because it could be harmful or bring back unpleasant memories for certain people
Good enough reason for me. They could've changed it for whimsy for all I care. But people always gotta complain at change.
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Does anyone have evidence from the devs to confirm the reason is actually linked to any of this? I haven't seen any statements from them and I feel whether it's a noose or a broken bottle, either could get the job done.
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The type of people triggered by this are pretty unlikely to be triggered by people obviously being executed, so meh.
I do find this change annoying because it's very restrained and token. I know a bulimic person who always instantly DCs against plague because the constant puking sounds are very unpleasant, but BHVR's unlikely to do anything about that despite it being a common mental illness along with general emetophobia being common. Plagues high kill rates may unironically be buffed a lot by people just DCing lol.
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While it may be true that the doctor and his "shock therapy" is not an accurate representation of what most doctors or ECT is like, research shows that media representation influences public perception and attitudes towards mental health and mental health treatments. Negative depictions of mental health treatments still contribute to the already existing stigma surrounding mental health and can impact public perception and attitudes towards these treatments. Even if someone recognizes that a character in a video game is not an accurate representation, they may still internalize negative attitudes and stereotypes about it.
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If an image like a monochromatic icon of a rope triggers thoughts of self-harm, it may be worth considering avoiding certain types of media. A gory horror game filled with scenes of mutilation and killing may not be the best choice for individuals who are especially sensitive to such content.
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They can judge that for themselves
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"seldom"
its 23%.
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The CDC data on suicides lumps hanging, asphyxiation, strangulation, and other means of suffocation all together. Firearm is by far the most common. Time to ban the Gunslinger's bullet add-on, I guess. Also need to take a look at all the pills/poison add-ons, as these are very common methods.
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Yes, and no. Peanits said it on the PTB forums, but not sure how to pull it up now. I'd tag them, but not sure of the protocol for tagging developers in threads like this.
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I mean if you look at the logic for most games these days;
Acceptable - murder, cannibalism, Satanism, dismembering, torture, bombing, sex and nudity, etc...
Not acceptable - self-harm, bad words to others (though in game profanity is acceptable) and in this games case, flicking a flashlight too quickly.
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I recognize it doesnt remove anything from my game experience, but on a side note and very respectfully I don't think things should be tailored to the needs of a few
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Basically this. If anyone is struggling with thoughts of self-harm, perhaps DbD is not a game they should be playing altogether, for obvious reasons... Seems like a very weird and minute change to make in a game that has so many other things going on in regards to harm and even self-harm, such as literally being able to off yourself on a meat hook.
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yes
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Except that these are also some extra statistics:
- you are seeing firearms in movies etc a lot more common, they are considered a normality in most people's life to have seen.
- pills, also a normality, most people will have seen or used pills for medication
- Nooses? most likely to be seen when personally thinking about it or finding someone yourself who did think about it, absolutely not a standard encounter in someone's life.
So that is not just only people dealing with heavy depression, but also a PTSD trigger for the loved ones they left behind.
Context matters.
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I think the noose is a more potent symbol for sure. Doesn't mean other images of more commonly used methods cannot be triggering and harmful to individuals who are prone to self-harm. But this was mostly hyperbole. I don't think BHVR should ban the Gunslinger.
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Interestingly, I came across a study from Vietnam that had some interesting tid bits.
I'm that region, poisoning is the preferred method for suicide. Followed by asphyxiation.
They found that for the most part, guns and hanging are used by those that really want to go as they are almost 100% fatal.
They also suggested that the preferred method is based on the most available tool. For instance, in America where a huge number of people own firearms, firearms is the most common, with poisoning hardly ranking.
In Europe where guns are banned for everyone, hanging is the top means with guns hardly ranking.
And in Vietnam, poisoning is the most prevalent because of the high agricultural society. The fertilizer and insecticides apparently make really good tea.
(sorry if I seem glib. It's a coping mechanism when dealing with dark material. I mean no offense to anyone.)
The study decided that removing the tools from people is the way to prevent suicide, but that's not my takeaway. My takeaway is that people are going to commit suicide regardless of what tools are available.
Removing guns and rope won't stop people from killing themselves. They will just switch to some other way. Epstein used a bed sheet wink wink.
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I'm just sad that this probably cements that no more maps will come to this realm, as the addon now only has to do with the dead dawg saloon and not the wild west in general :/
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