Is dead hard balanced? Or why people still complaining?
I believe Dead hard is much more balanced than before, but why people still complaining about it? I don't think it needs another nerf. Is it?
Best Answers
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It's still unavoidable in many scenarios, completely negates some killer powers, forces people to play around it even when the perk isn't in the current match and even one successful Dead Hard can outright win the game, so yeah, people are still complaining.
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If you assume DH was nerfed sufficiently, sure it's balanced.
I disagree though. You get more distance from a successful DH than before. So yes, it's not as "braindead" as before but people saying "It's nerfed, it's not strong anymore" are simply lying to others and themselves.
The pick rate of DH is still through the roof. All you need to know. People don't pick bad perks consistently.
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"It can win a game"
Buddy, even No Mither can win a game, doesn't mean it's too powerful.
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I think dead hard is mostly fine. Maybe increase the time you can't drop pallets or vault anything by a few more micro seconds but other then that nothing else. Way better then what we have before.
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Still can buy more time than any other survivor perk can provide.
There's a reason a ton of people are still using it. Its not immunity like before, we can see that, but that doesnt change the fact that nothing compares to Dead Hard.
You can Possessed Chains the possibility of Dead Hard away, or just One Shot them while healthy, but there's a lot of circumstances where you dont get the opportunity to avoid Dead Hard from being in play.
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It's got a bit of the Eruption-Syndrome. DH being too strong is besides the point just like it is with Eruption. Though, both are extremely strong. The real problem is that people hate to get hit by it, so they need to find a way to counter DH. That counter is waiting behind the the survivor and watch them run in circles until they finally use it. That's not fun. The killer wants to end the chase when they get 2 hits (just like it was intended), not playing around a perk that might or might not be there, forcing them to wait for X seconds. A survivor doesn't want to stop doing gens because the killer kicked this one earlier and might or might not get a down in the next X seconds.
TL;DR: DH has very unfun counterplay and will never be anything but a nuisance to go against.
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Still very unhealthy for the game, needs a rework to something entirely different.
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It is a balanced perk indeed.
After the rework survivors adapted to it while the killers did not, because it is easier to ask for yet another nerf
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Killers have adapted to it.
The problem is that the counterplay is just as ridiculous as being screwed over by the old DH for distance was. Not got a way to inflict Deep Wound? Sit on someone's butt and hope they don't have something safe to go for. Or resume the silly game of waving your screen around or fake-charging a power (if you can) to try and trick the Survivor into thinking you're attacking.
But all of this puts us back in the same stupid scenario of having to assume everyone's running DH even if they're not running DH.
And you still have like half or more of the powers in the game that give a big "LOOK AT ME COMING!" warning and whoops, don't use your power if you want to bait DH! (Also not counting that some things, like Billy, encourage people to stay injured and therefore entirely counter the point of having an instadown power)
All the things that made Killers hate old DH also make them hate new DH.
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Comparing No Mither to DH. Just lol.
You know exactly what he meant or you have never played Killer ever since DH change.
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Oh no, I know exactly what he meant, but you evidently don't know what I meant.
Loads of games are balancing on a string, doesn't mean the ability to swing it one way or another is any argument for anything to be classified as OP or not. Even the trashiest perks can sometimes turn a game around.
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I don´t like these endurance "take a hit" and glow white things all together. The old dash looked way better.
I would have preferred the old Dead Hard Dash but only a one time use. I think a one time perk would have been fine.
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because it's a skill based perk and as such it relies heavily on a perfect scenario power budget. it has to be a valid tool in beginner level play while also not exceeding balance in high level play.
dead hard (along with other perks like decisive strike) will always be a point of contention between survivors and killers. they basically make it so you're able to escape when you should have been dead.
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i think its fine atm. has counterplay and can be strong when used correctly.
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Nah I understood what you meant.
Trash perks can sometimes do something so therefore, DH is not "winning games" anymore than say, No Mither or This Isn't Happening. Doesn't make it true, but I understand!
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Adapt to it. If survivors managed to adapt their mindset to pain res(popular killer perk). They can with dh.
Post edited by JocelynAwakens on1 -
Its skill expression has been moved up the MMR ladder, but an argument could be made for it being too strong. It's popularity would certainly support the claim.
My only gripes are:
- All the goddamn waiting
- How script kiddies can mercilessly abuse this perk
Edit: And having to treat all survivors like they have it. Someone else already pointed it out but that's still some nonsense.
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If it was actually balanced, chances are it wouldn't be the single most picked perk in the game bar none, in the highest percentage of builds for either side.
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What, are you claiming adapt to it means "enjoy the way it changes how the game is played"? Because that is an utterly ridiculous view on 'adapting'.
DH is creeping back up to its old usage rate, everyone knows how to play around it (or to just eat it). That's more than enough to realise how strong it is, and hate the way it changes the game.
Also, seriously, why are we comparing DH to Pain Res? Pain Res doesn't even do the same revealing trick it did when it was first released, and the counterplay to it costs all of a second on a gen with no other downside or way it can fail (and then it can't even force people off with DMS because you weren't on the gen when the hook happened). <_>
Post edited by JocelynAwakens on4 -
Im comparing it to pain res because most survivors are already trained in letting go of a gen before someone gets hooked. Not only is pain res is counterable but dh is too. And both do have times where it may be unavoidable. Pain res-get a skill check as soon as someone gets hooked so u cant let go. And dh-pallets.
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But this is missing the point: people know how to counter DH. And that the counter is stupid.
- DH gets value when it's not even in the game or your perk load out. You get precious seconds whilst the Killer waits to see if you have it (which can then get you another loop). This was one of the biggest complaints about old DH, too.
- The lose-lose scenarios around pallets and loops, where DH allows way more greed... or you get hit and then get to the next loop. Either way, this buys more time in chase than any other perk, at all.
- A lot of powers have obvious charge times to give Survivors time to react to what's meant to be a strong ability. This makes timing DH for such things super easy. "Don't use your power because this perk exists" is not an encouraging thing given that the powers are what differentiates Killers.
- As a perk, it can negate all sources of Exposed or instadown powers; despite being nearly ubiquitous, DH counters entire builds.
- It still gets some value even when countered, because countering it forces the Killer to waste time. Or maybe you'll get to a loop, and if they swing too early because of that... boom, third health state and now you have a loop to play around.
And then there's the subjective "this is utterly ridiculous" of a perk making Killers too cautious to go for what should be a guaranteed down and instead having to sit on the Survivor's butt for another ten seconds to bait it out. Nearly every chase of every game.
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There are many more factors that go into a pickrate, so pickrate itself is not a foolproof gauge for balance.
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Of course, but if it it doesn't fall into "noob trap", "easy to use", or a regular comfort pick, then the balance has to be in question.
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Nerf for dh anf it now shows who has it like no mither does? But sometimes actually waiting too long id not best option if you m1 in close range they can't react it does not have I-frames anymore. So they're just quessing exactly when you're going to hit.
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Any perk that gives an extra health state, and any perk that affects gen times is always going to feel unfair
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Having a chance to escape from getting downed every time that you're injured always seemed odd to me, especially when compared to other perks like DS. Both perks work in the exact same manner. They both require very specific situations, and precise timing to pull off, but unlike DS you can keep using DH over and over. And with there now being base kit BT to coincide with other perks like off the record, makes the need for DH to be multi-use seem rather redundant.
Post edited by SweetTerror on3 -
Like all things complained about, it will continue to be until it's no longer useful/used.
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Im not going to type multiple paragraphs. But what you wrote down is still the same mindset with pain res. And you cant change my mind. Even if they change dh again, ppl will adapt and killers will complain. Crazy cycle
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Ah, yes, because pain res has so many different advantages and nuisances. A non-directional scream or having to stop working on a gen for an utterly insignificant amount of time. That can't happen every hook, relies on the Killer getting hooks to do anything, isn't in every game, and can't be targeted or used on demand.
About the only relevant point is that you can get penalised by weird skill timings, but that's not even related to the perk!
If you said Eruption, you'd have more of a point. But that means actually admitting that DH is problematic in its current state.
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Even if the game were perfectly balanced people would complain. DH is still strong and the counterplay to it is not fun for the Killer so it's a natural target. Using it is fun for the Survivor though which is why it's so defended. I don't believe that the fun of the other side is an overriding factor for balance though. The crossmap snipes and downs I get on Artist with aura reading perks probably aren't fun for the target but they're definitely fun for me as a comparison
The real test as to if it's unbalanced or not is if equipping DH over Sprint Burst or Lithe gives a statistically significant improvement in escape rates. Old DH did that beyond a doubt which is why it was rightfully nerfed. I don't think current DH does.
So, unless data is released that shows DH is significantly better than SB or Lithe (which is not the impression I get) I'm straight in the DH is fine category.
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I wont admit anything because there is nothing to admit. But glad you admitted eruption which is problematic. But thats why devs outright said they are gutting it soon while nothing on dh including pain res yet. So the tides are in my favor. Not yours.
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Read what you wrote outloud.
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I've been saying that Eruption should just be entity blocking since I picked the game up after a break. That's nothing new. And also that going from "old DH was everywhere" to "new DH was everywhere", having skipped over the actual brief lull after 6.1.0, does not actually feel significantly better. No chance to fool myself that things have improved because of the period where people weren't using it every game. <_>
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Like a villain monologuing their master plan.
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Regardless of whether it’s balanced, it feels TERRIBLE to play against (much like Eruption). It’s actively anti-fun.
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It’s like Bubba facecamping. He’s gonna get a 2k at most. It’s “balanced” but it wasn’t fun for the ones getting facecamped. That’s how DH feels.
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Even if DH wouldn't be ridiculously strong, which is obviously is, the amount of hoops Killers have to jump through to play around it (even if the Survivor doesn't even use the perk) and how unfun and counterintuitive they are alone justify a fundamental change.
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As long as he become self aware I don't care how he does it.
But he needs to do it.
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Don't underestimate survivor altruism.
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I don't think "being injured" is a "very specific situation" tbh. For most people it happens every game, and it it doesn't, you're totally dominating the killer anyway so you don't need it (and obviously no second chance perk would trigger, you'd have to use your first chance first lol) But yeah, it's a second chance bonus health state perk you can use an infinite amount of times with almost no requirement for activation.
Also, I think you meant BT, not UB.
They definitely didn't "outright say they are gutting it soon" lmfao. DH is a problem and I think you know that.
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Definitely doesnt take a rocket scientist to know if they mentioned changing eruption, they will rework or nerf it. No way they will inadvertently make it stronger. And once again, dh isnt a problem. Unless u make it a problem.
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dead hard shouldn't be in the game. period.
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There are some instances where new DH can be better than old DH (such as it resetting bloodlust), but It is absolutely more balanced than before. It lasts less long, can't be used for distance, doesn't counter a variety of killer powers outright anymore and instead is actually countered by a variety of killer powers, as well as clashing with various survivor perks/mechanics. They even "nerfed" server validation for DH for some reason.
That said, while DH is one of the most fun perks to use, I do think it's unhealthy for the game. Not even necessarily because it is too strong (which it however is too, in the right hands anyway), but because it prevents people from using most of any of the other Exhaustion perks. Without DH, we would be seeing a lot more perk variety because not only would people use the other Exhaustion perks, but those other Exhaustion perks have yet other perks they synergize with that we would in turn also be seeing more of (think Sprint Burst with Vigil, Smash Hit with Parental Guidance, Overcome with Lucky Break, Lithe with Dance With Me, Head On with Quick & Quiet).
So yeah, I think actually just "deleting" DH would be good. Although I guess maybe making it so DH only protects against ability hits would be a way to keep it essentially like it is now and yet still make it not be used nearly as often anymore.
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4 DH games are so brutal!
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It's still a strong perk. Is it too strong? I don't think so.
I have ways to play around it now, ways to express my own skill.
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The problem isn't Dead Hard per se, nor is it Eruption or any other perk. The problem is these perks combined with the current game mechanics, the incredible speed with which the generators are repaired, the totally unbalanced maps, some absolutely weak killers with a thousand problems. If the maps were balanced, if the killers were all Wesker's level, if the generators didn't complete in 30 seconds, Dead Hard (and other perks) wouldn't be a problem at all.
If for example, in an atrocious map like Decimated Borgo, a killer like Clown or Trapper or another m1 is against 2 or 3 or 4 dead hard, it is also useless to continue playing, the game is over even before starting.
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Balance doesn't correlate to the pick rate. Pre-nerf BBQ was the most picked perk.
Same deal with SQ survivors using Windows of Opportunity to avoid dying bc teammates depleted map resources.
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Yes you are correct I meant BT not UB, so I'll correct that. And I was simply comparing how both DS and DH both require their own specific situations to pull off.
But I do agree that there are a ridiculous amount of second chance perks in the game now. Between base kit BT, regular BT, DS, DH, OTR, styptics, etc, playing as killer is painful these days.
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I made a thread about this awhile ago. I still feel DH is far too strong and far too common. I'll repost my old post:
"I'll preface the whole thing by saying I have about 6.5k hours in the game. Most of those hours have been on killer, most of those hours have been on the Hillbilly. I play on NA West servers at nighttime, which is referred to as the "demon hours" or "juicer-hours".
For those unfamiliar, it's when all the sweaty SWFs, God-tier solo-queue survivors and literal comp teams get on to destroy late-night killers. I have a few problems with Dead Hard. Firstly, I will address: yes, Dead Hard was nerfed for bad/average players. The people who used E for distance promptly dropped this perk and picked up something that was easier to get value out of. But for those who always used DH for the ability to dodge attacks, this perk HASN'T changed.
Some of the issues I have with the perk are: the passive deterrence it grants, the fact it's now the obvious choice for an exhaustion perk again, the immense value one-usage of Dead Hard can grant, and the fact it is ping-reliant. When I know a player has Dead Hard, I now have to play around it when it comes to pallets/windows. This means this survivor now gets even more time before I can lunge at them when they are looping structures. The standard lunge-distance is effectively shortened against anyone who is using DH. This is a passive deterrence that the existence of DH has on the game.
Having Dead Hard will indefinitely grant you maybe an extra half second or so around EVERY pallet or window. This effect is exaggerated if the survivor is using resilience or doesn't have an item (watching an item disappear when a survivor commits to a vault is how you can be certain to swing at a survivor and avoid their DH.)
If a survivor is looping a pallet, they are able to, rather easily, time their DH effectively enough to where you either hit their DH, and they get to run off to the next tile. Or if you don't swing, they get to pallet stun you. In these situations, survivors can be exceptionally greedy with little repercussions. They can choose to pretend to drop the pallet, and you respect it, now they get even more distance for perhaps another loop. Or they do a spin, run right at you, but you wait it out, and then they do it once more, but this time they actually use their DH. Either way, this enables the survivor to get an extra couple loops out of a strong pallet.
It is also now the obvious choice perk all over again. DbD has tons of perks where the option is "I can bring this off meta, kind of niche perk that could be super handy, or I could bring the safe perk that always gets value." Because Dead Hard is the best exhaustion in the game, the other exhaustion perks don't matter. Kind of like how Deadlock is a fine slowdown all on its own, but doesn't compare to eruption/brine combo.
When I go up against the God-squad Seal Team SWF who I know is here to ruin my night, do gens in 5 minutes and leave, you bet your ass 3 out of 4 -- if not all 4 -- of those survivors going to be bringing Dead Hard. I don't mean guys with 1.5k hours, I mean literal 3-6k hour survivor-mains who are deadly with Dead Hard. Those guys will very likely get value at least once -- if not multiple times -- every game.
As a killer, there are few things more miserable than when EVERY survivor in a match is running DH. I will pull off some crazy-bump logic on Blight that took my hundreds of hours to master. I'll line up everything beautifully and the survivor presses E and it doesn't matter that I landed a frame-perfect hit on them. Or if I managed to land a sick chainsaw curve on a survivor, they'll just tank it and keep running while I sit there fatigued.
Another issue is that some killers Dead Hard will work nearly all the time on, because their attacks are predictable. Plague's red vomit, Trickster's knives, Huntresses' hatchets, Blight's rushes, Nurses blinks, Oni's kanabo, etc. This is honestly one of the biggest issues with the game I can think of right now. As a killer, the meta of the game encourages you to whiff attacks on survivors. As Blight, I have to rush past them the first time, to bait out their DH. As Oni, I have to glide off of them, stop, turn around and slam, as plague I have to fake a puke. The list goes on. Dead Hard encourages killers to not use their power. If you're thinking about Legion/Slinger, okay. There are two killers in this game -- 3 if you include Pinhead with Original Pain -- who can completely ignore Dead Hard. That's 3 killers out of 30.
And now let's get into the biggest issue: dead hard is now even stronger than before when activated. Old Dead Hard got consistent value. New Dead Hard gets less consistent value, but when activated is FAR more useful than any other exhaustion perk in the game. One usage of Dead Hard easily outweighs whatever 3 Lithes, Sprint Bursts or Balanced landings might buy you. The killer is now forced to sit through a weapon-hit animation, slowed down movement, while the survivor gets an maneuverable boost of speed in ANY direction they'd like, not just one straight line like old DH.
If I could pick any one perk on the survivor-side I'd like to see get re-worked, I would pick Dead Hard again. I hate Hyperfocus /stakeout as much as the next killer-main. And those do need to be addressed, but DH is still the best exhaustion perk in the game. I'd definitely take an eruption nerf in trade for a DH nerf.
Ping is also an issue with Dead Hard. If you have high ping, or the killer has high ping, your perk is now useless. That's not a good design and it rewards those who have low ping -- something the game already does naturally with vaults. The argument that "Well, I suck with it anyway. I can never get it to activate." is not useful to the conversation. I'm bad at Nurse, she still got nerfed.
What's my solution? No more third health stage. DbD has come a long way in the last 6 years and the community has gotten good enough where having a third health-stage on command is too much. It's not viable, it doesn't need to be in the game. People have had 6 years to master this game, they have THOUSANDS of hours invested in it. If you set a new level of mastery for them, they will reach it eventually. Ex. Nurse.
I have some ideas on possible rework ideas, but I know they'd not be a compelling alternative to how strong Dead Hard already is, and it would just anger those reading, so I'll leave them out of this post. I've heard a common complaint that feels necessary with new STBFL in the game, and if it would make the transition easier, I'd be all for a nerf on STBFL. Dead Hard is a problem for the meta of the game, and it has been a problem since its release."
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unless you make it a problem by trying to down anyone at any point in the match you mean?
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