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Eruption Nerf kinda reminds me of the old DBD Balance

Malkhrim
Malkhrim Member Posts: 989
edited February 2023 in General Discussions

Remember when Freddy got released, newer survivors complained about it, and in the next patch almost every aspect of Freddy's power was nerfed?

Remember how it took the devs a long time to acknowledge OG Decisive Strike needed a rework and, when they finally did, they spent about a year looking and testing for the best way to change it without ruining it completely, to the point it STILL remained the top survivor meta perk after the rework?


Sure, Eruption's nerf wasn't as fast as Freddy's nerf, but it's hard not to notice DH's nerf was far less extreme. Again, after YEARS of complaints from killer players, the devs looked for a way of nerfing the survivor-favorite perk in a way that is still useful, and succeeded. Meanwhile, a perk rose to the top of the killer meta, was targeted by survivor complaints for MONTHS, and every aspect that made it good got nerfed to the point of making the perk useless.


I'm not saying the devs favor survivors when making balance changes. To be honest, I used to say that way back in the day for good reasons, but their way of reacting to the community and balancing the game improved A LOT through the years. I really liked what they did last year on patcj 6.1.0. Even though I disagreed with some specific changes, they made stuff both sides of the community had been asking for a long time, some of which they had outright denied to do in the past. They also avoided completely butchering some of the killer meta perks. Among these nerfs, I believe Corrupt Intervention got the best one. It's still really helpful on early game, just doesn't make strong killer early games even stronger (and THAT is the kind of nerf Eruption should have received instead of being gutted).

But when I look at perks that were even higher on the meta, it makes me think some double standard still exists when it comes to reacting to complaints and nerf requests. The Ruin nerf I actually liked because that awfully unreliable perk was even used as an excuse to not buff gen regression in the past. But it wasn't the only major nerf: Pop was gutted too, Thanatophobia became quite good for Legion and Plague, but then it was nerfed so hard it became useless for every other killer, even worse than old Thana. Now, Eruption joins the other three.

Sure, survivor perks were nerfed too, but the only perks that got nerfed to the point of becoming borderline useless since 6.1.0 were... Spine Chill? Self-care? These weren't even that good to begin with and can still fit in specific builds. Other perks like BT and IW only fell into disuse because other survivor buffs outshined them (BT was actually buffed, lol). I can only think of ONE survivor perk in this game's entire history that went from hero to zero due to a single nerf, and only because it was the most obviously broken perk ever (MoM).

Sure, killers got lots cool buffs and the reactions to community requests have been way more fair than they were back then (that's why I don't really think "devs are survivor-sided" is the right thing to say), not to mention how more balanced the game has become overtime, but seeing DH is still going strong and even DS is still somewhat relevant after the nerfs, it's not too far off to think some difference still exists (I was sure this kind of statement was completely wrong until a while ago, but it doesn't seem that crazy anymore)... at least when it comes to being careful when nerfing perks or reacting to a great number of complaints from each side of the community, probably because one side is far more played than the other.


TL;DR: the way the devs react to the community is way better than back then, but they still seem less careful when nerfing top killer perks than when doing it to top survivor perks.

Obs.: when I talk about "sides of the community" I'm not ignoring that people play both sides, but I'm talking about requests to nerf something from a specific role or buff the other one... and let's be honest, there has always been some warfare going on the community.

Comments

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,784

    "DH is useless to a large portion of the Survivor playerbase"

    I did NOT say the perk was useless. That was intentional.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,459

    I like this post. Of course its a sort of rant but it's nuanced and layered with some well thought through points.

  • NewPlayer100102
    NewPlayer100102 Member Posts: 515

    I'm dumb.

    How is deadhard useless to a large portion of the survivor playerbase?

    Anyone, please explain

  • VikingDragonXii
    VikingDragonXii Member Posts: 2,885

    Here is the bigger issues with Eruption. Yes we do t have the same numbers as the Devs have about stats and yes maybe Eruption was increasing the Killer rate too much......but they made changes that no one even was asking for and nuked Eruption into the ground. Making it such a low Regression going off of Current Progress is mind boggling because you'll need a Gen be at like 70% for it to make any notable difference.

  • Malkhrim
    Malkhrim Member Posts: 989
    edited February 2023

    How highly the perk affects kill rates should affect the decision to nerf it, but doesn't necessarily dictates how hard the perk needs to be nerfed. At the point you nerf a perk, a reduction of its results in data is already expected, so how can you know nerfing it for a certain amount won't be enough? Also, they nerfed it so much they made it clearly worse than its old version (the one that was so bad it needed to be buffed according they're own data) and other regression perks that aren't that good today, like Jolt (which got buffed multiple times) and Pop Goes the Weasel.

  • Omans
    Omans Member Posts: 1,081

    It took years to nerf the best addon from the best killer (Nurse's purple range addon).

    It took years to nerf moris which were so hilariously imbalanced. (and keys).

    Blight's OP addons have yet to be touched.

    It took a long time to fix Legion when he first came out, while so many killer users were exploiting him.

    Both sides have things that are not taken care of by the devs.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,784

    Most people are NOT good enough to get value out of DH. They will use it and it won't do anything for them besides take up a valuable perk slot.

    That is why I said that the perk is useless to a large portion of the Survivor playerbase and why I did NOT say that the perk was useless

  • NewPlayer100102
    NewPlayer100102 Member Posts: 515

    Thanks.

    Its the most used perk(From some guy who counted).

    And I agree, not everyone gets to score with it.

    They would be better served by WoO + Lithe.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    Killers time is not 4 times the survivors time. That's one of the most silly things i've ever seen go around on the forums and there have been a lot of silly things here

    It's more realistic to say the killers time is times the number of survivors on gens time as if those don't get done the killer wins by default

    If that number is ever 4 beyond the first 20 seconds of the match you are doing something horribly wrong

    Not to mention that if blast mine didn't trigger in a certain amount of time it will dissapear and you have to build it up again where eruption had a joke of a cooldown and sticked to a gen forever untill you get your down

    Thinking blast mine and current eruption are even remotely in the same ballpark is the real joke here

  • Malkhrim
    Malkhrim Member Posts: 989
    edited February 2023

    Nurse's Purple Range add-on wasn't her best add-on at all. Her multiple blink add-ons were, and they got nerfed a long time ago. If you see when the community started complaining a lot about the purple range add-on specifically, it was far more recent.

    Moris were still nerfed almost a year before keys did. Also, don't forget they used to be even stronger in 2016 but had gotten nerfed a long time ago.

    It's still questionable what are the nerfs the Blight needs, but multiple killers the survivors complained about have been nerfed in the meantime: Spirit (twice), Deathslinger, Nurse.

    When Legion first came out, survivors got buffs just because this new killer existed. The deep wound mechanic was put into Borrowerd Time and made it must stronger than it used to be, even though it was considered a fine perk at the time (since the game was way more survivor-sided back then). The Legion was only not changed early because they needed a full rework, but it only took months, they STILL got reworked before Freddy, for whom the community was asking for buffs A YEAR before the Legion even came out. Again, Freddy was nerfed to the ground IN HIS FIRST PATCH.

    In Legion's rework, the deep wound changes buffed BT even further, something that wasn't even requested, and the Pig was nerfed alongside them.

    A lot of your examples are from things there were far from being that much complained about in the past, while the devs were nerfing other killer stuff that raised more complaints, like old bloodlust, Freddy, other killers that got nerfed and some specific iri add-ons that were quite disliked.


    But if there's any doubt the devs listened far more to survivors than killer back in 2018, you know the famous "play something else" line? That wasn't the only time a killer request got dismissed. The same game director once read comments about survivors being overpowered in Dead by Daylight's stream #114, in november 2018, right after a Halloween event where survivors were just farming nectar instead of doing gens and then killing themselves on hook. He then interrupted what the other devs were saying to call attention to those comments, answered by outright dismissing them, insinuating survivors had a harder time based on INDIVIDUAL SURVIVAL RATES. Kill rates, which are based on the amount of deaths per match, weren't shown in that stream, nor were matches with different killers considered. For some reason, the only data considering different killers was "mori rate" (really low because moris were used quite rarely). Despite that, he treated the data as "hard facts", asked "have you not been following" to the commenters and while saying survivors died most of the matches, even laughed a little.

    And if anyone still thinks that data was really that reliable, kill rates were shown again a few months later, after the DS rework and some others, and they were actually higher this time.

    I don't remember ever seeing a dev answering survivor requests or complaints by saying "you're wrong, the other side has more trouble than you, have you not been following?" and laughing about it. So yeah, hard to believe they listened equally to both sides at the time.

    Again, I do believe this has become more fair over the years, I just think today there might still be some double standard while back in the day it felt obvious.

  • ButterFlee13
    ButterFlee13 Member Posts: 271

    Remember guys, Boon Circle of healing.

    After months of compliant, they reduce heal to 75% to test the water.

    and nerf to 50% last time, its like every survivor perk, they need to not anger their big player base.


    Yeah by logic, is 80 percent of your gamers is on survivor side, they need to treat it with care without losing revenue.

  • PrincessCalla
    PrincessCalla Member Posts: 139
    edited February 2023

    DH is kinda fickle...my ping is like 32ms, I always ways hit the button properly, yet I die with exhaustion lol.

    I have plenty of videos of this happening too. It's ridiculous. I also vault and die like 6 feet from it...something needs to be fixed. I've Verizon Fios and a wired connection. It's solid. It's something to do with this game. If they have some weird letancy issue then they need to extend the time or do something about it.

    Reminds me of FFXIV all over again.

  • foods
    foods Member Posts: 73

    yea ops got the receipts. its clear how they devs think the game should be balanced.

    survivors constantly treated with kids gloves.

  • katoptris
    katoptris Member Posts: 3,180

    Actually both sides complained bout og freddy before his big power overhauled.

  • JustWhimsical
    JustWhimsical Member Posts: 590

    Iron will is amazing in no exhaustion builds, countered by certain perks, but the 75% does make you really hidden, what I use is distortion, lightweight, iron will, and clairvoyance so I can window tech. Easily helps me extend chases while being off-meta.

  • Unam
    Unam Member Posts: 118

    Arguing, that Killers disabled time only counts for Survs on Gens is a bit hyprocritical.

    Therefore, Surv Incapacitated time would only count if the Killer would chase all other Survivors that are not incapacitated, bcs otherwise the Objective would still be progressed.

    If the Killer wouldnt chase or hook, Survs would Auto Win.... WHat stupid argument is that? If the other side doesnt play the Game, you win. Oh yeah cpt. obvious, tell me more!

    Oh yeah there is always the "skill issue" argument. Why is there no "skill issue" on Surv side? Every Argument towards balance is the same. Survs suffer under bad perks, toxic killers and unfun gamedesign but Killers just need to learn to play better. Same ######### every time!

    Btw. no one said we couldnt argue about the duration of incap on Eruption or a timer on how long eruption stays on gens. But the fact that The core argument of "not being able to play the game" is BS for incap but TRUE for Blastmine (Bcs it COMBINES two effects). One is ok, the other is not.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    How on earth is it hypocritical? It's simple math

    a combined total of 450 seconds of work (by base) need to be done to complete all gens, If you as killer chase a single survivor for ~150 seconds then 3 survivors can finish all the gens. Every second you spend is 3 seconds gen progress they can get. baring travel time ofcourse

    If you are chasing a survivor for 30 seconds and one is on hook and another has to go resque them then only 30 seconds worth of gen progress can be made. At that point of the match your seconds are equal to the survivors

    If you have 1 survivor dead, 2 slugged and chasing the last one then you can't lose cause nobody can work on gens, even if you chase that survivor for 6 minutes. Your time is infinitly more valuable then the survivors at that point

    Bein hooked, chased, slugged, etc. all stops survivors doing gens. That are situation you can create. Survivors can't stop you from chasing them. It's not about not playing the game

    Again, comparing a 4 second stun of a perk that needs to be reactivated again if it doesn't trigger vs 25 (!) seconds of a perk that's pretty much up all the time is non-sensicle

    Now that's ofcourse easier said then done, espacially with the weaker killers vs optimal survivors it's a uphill battle to say the least. You're right that some killers don't stand a chance to create said pressure

    But the statement of killers time is always 4 times survivor time is plain wrong

  • Malkhrim
    Malkhrim Member Posts: 989

    But it took years for any change that made him better, while making him much worse only took one patch.

  • Malkhrim
    Malkhrim Member Posts: 989

    Honestly, I love Distortion and Lightweight. Their buffs were among the ones I liked the most when playing survivor.

  • JustWhimsical
    JustWhimsical Member Posts: 590

    I honestly agree, lightweight and distortion have saved me so many times. Forever be a staple part of my builds, I am quite addicted to them.

  • Steakdabait
    Steakdabait Member Posts: 1,280

    Eruption was genuinely a problematic perk, it needed to be changed or nerfed to reasonable numbers. BHVR decided on making it more of an info perk like COB is than a hard slowdown.

    Which on it's like older dbd balance not really tbh, Old dbd was a complete mess balance wise for BOTH sides Nurse was (and still is lmao) a problematic killer despite almost 7 years of being in the game, Moris let you kill without hooking for a year (and then 3 more years of being able to kill after 1 hook), etc etc.

  • Malkhrim
    Malkhrim Member Posts: 989

    Except that the new info it provides is useless most of the time and we already have perks that do that better, as I stated above. In general, it was reduced from one of the best killer perks to a useless one that isn't even worth bringing.

    Nurse remained the best because her power is better to counter survivors by default, it covers the distance between you and the survivor and it goes right through the objects protecting them from your approach. Still, she was nerfed many times through the years.

    Survivors might not have gotten exactly some perfect attention from the devs in the past, but they still got way faster and better reactions and responses than killers. Every major perk nerf had to go through some careful planning and testing to still be useful after a nerf, and most of them took years to even be changed. Killer perks got nerfed before they even went live (Surge/Jolt is a good example of that) while even Mettle of Man went live untouched for some reason. Killers had requested changes outright denied, like gen speed nerf, while some survivor requested changes were discussed on the streams even if they weren't in the current plan. Hell, even the first reworked map was Badham (sure, it got changes when Freddy got reworked, but later it got a full rework, before any other map), which was one of the statistically worse ones for survivors, and it actually became a greatly survivor-sided map, while Haddonfield wasn't reworked for years, Red Forest STILL didn't have its size reduced, and when Fractured Cowshed, Gas Haven and other survivor-sided maps were finally reworked, they remained good for survivors. Hell, Cowshed is actually worse now than it was before its rework.

  • Paternalpark
    Paternalpark Member Posts: 663

    Half the population( the southern hemisphere) can't use it proficiently due to ping from servers being too far.

    Not to say half the playerbase is from there.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,516

    Yeah I suck with it too but good survivors can just use it so well and get constantly value so it's not useless. But when killer baits it out from me every time it does feel so. I do get value agains't killer who don't wait so still useful for me but I also suck with the timing.

  • DyingWish92
    DyingWish92 Member Posts: 776
    edited March 2023

    Getting off the killers shoulder will never be useless. Why is it useless because it doesn't give the survivor half a map of distance after the stun anymore or give free escapes at the exit gate?

    Post edited by EQWashu on
  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,784
    edited March 2023

    It literally doesn't get you anywhere.

    It exists to give you Stun points at the moment.

    Post edited by EQWashu on
  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,459

    The trick is to plan ahead. If you know that you'll go down, try to go down in a gym or structure with a window. Vaulting a window will get you a lot of distance