General Discussions
General Discussions
If a killer is only decent with *one* specific add on, would you class them as a good killer?
I was doing a tier list and knight came up.
Without map of the realm (a brown add on that increases guard detection ranges by 4) he is easily the worst killer in the game as it's mathematically impossible to use his ability to catch people. An addonless sadako would do better.
But with map of the realm he's relatively alright.
Would you classify a killer as being decent/good if they have an add on like this? (and when does it become disagreeable to consider certain add ons like MDR?)
Comments
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I don't run add-ons, so for me personally any killer that requires add-ons can't be considered good.
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I don't think I understand your question. Are you asking if a killer's strength should be gauged by taking addons in account? Then the answer is obviously yes. What kind of question is that?
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Sort of.
But where does someone draw the line at which add ons should be considered?
If we were considering all add ons, spirit would be better than nurse as she has MDR and amulet. Same with blight and C33.
Billy would be A tier as we'd be able to consider both Doom and lopro which combined pretty much quadruple his base kit strength.
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If a killer depends on addons to even be functional then no, they arent ok, like you mentioned, Knight heavily relays on Map of the Realm to use his power properly, without it, he becomes considerably more inconsistent and unreliable.
Could even mention Call to Arms as well.
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I disagree, I don't think he's the best killer by any means but I feel like knight has a very situational power for example if the survivor is around mid map and it's a open map then he's at a disadvantage with his power but at the same time on any map if you have them in a corner area of the map or anywhere near edge map its pretty much a free down if the knight player doesn't mess up and they're injured already, I feel like he's about a high c tier killer or depending on the map b tier but he's not the worst
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Just look back at the older killers for your answer.
Demo & Pig have gotten their browns (atleast 50% of their effect) added basekit and Nemesis got his best addons nerfed because his were yellow.
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I would say it depends.
For example, to my, Knight with and without "map of the realm" (wards see further) is day and night.
For nemesis i dont feel i need an addon to play it.
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If it’s easily available then I think it’s okay to still call them good. Knight has call to arms and map as well as dried horse meat
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I don't understand how people call him the worst, he is like artist. Place his power survivor is forced to leave and usually get a free hit. Compared to Freddy and onryo I don't think he is close to the worst at all
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Yeah, no. Addonless Nurse is still stronger than Spirit and Blight with their best addons. I get what you meant but that was a bad example. Billy, A tier? Well if you agree that there is an A+ tier as well then sure. At the low end of A tier though. Anyway, taking in account killers' addons inevitably is the way to determine their peak strength aka their real strength. There's zero restrictions when it comes to addons you can use in this game aside from being able to only pick 2 of them, why would anybody ignore this fact?
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No, killers should be valued at basekit.
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With map yea, but without map its mathematically impossible to get a guard to chase a survivor if they run away and don't be dumb, and if they either stick to the centre of the map or utilise chained loops he basically has zero chase power like skull merchant. You would have to be on an insanely situational map like the corner of lerys in order to get an 8m range guard to chase someone (jailor my beloved).
So he has mediocre gen defence (esp without Call to arms) and a chase ability that only helps you in 1/50 situations or camping. At least onryo has a short height and flickers this man has zero way to secure a down in a 3 gen without map.
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I would say If the addon is brown or yellow it's passable because you would have them pretty often
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I play a lot of knight and agree 100% that without "map of the realm" you feel soooo bad, soldiers are blind even in front of the survivor.
I dont think is the worst without map because trapper exist.
Its not going to happen but i would love for knight.
-Base map of the realm, turn map of the realm into a meme addon if devs want.
-Summon in your spot not 1 meter in front of you.
With those 2 changes knight would feel better to play. At least in my humble opinion and not asking for something crazy.
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I'd say two things about this:
- Firstly you don't need map of the realm, many players play without it. Map makes landing you guards easier and and allow you to cover multiple options but smart decision making and tracking while placing can also achieve this. To avoid sounding rude you don't need map of the realm, you need to get better which is hard to see if you're use to using the addon as it's one that changes the way you learn the killer if you learn him with it as it does hold your hand a bit.
- Secondly, if you do think the addon is needed I'd say you'd change consideration on a few factors. You'd consider the killer as having one addon slot not two, if the addon is super transformative, like tombstone, you may want to disregard it as you're basically talking about a different killer and if the addon is brown/yellow it's reasonable that someone could bring them every match but higher they will have to play matches without that addon which should counted against them. I also personally value diversity in builds as it forces survivors to play around more options which makes them play safe or take risks playing into the addons you have and allows you to run more unexpected options to catch people off guard or fit your playstyle better. If you think map of the realm is need I'd dock a few points, you can bring it every match and knight can have a lot of build diversity with just one other addon slot and perks, although I think it holds your hand it doesn't massively change how you play the killer even if it does value some playstyles over others so I wouldn't call it transformative.
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I disagree that he doesn't need it. He literally cannot land a guard without it assuming you
Assuming you land the guard on the exact spot of the survivor:
Spawn time: 1.5s, so the survivor has ran 6m
Vision expansion: 1s, so the survivor has ran 10m by the time the vision has expanded fully.
This isn't even taking into account the fact that guards move on the path, making the expansion slower depending on the angle survivors are running at.
He mathematically cannot use his power unless you only zone (which is very situational for knight) or verse people with the reaction speeds of a 60 year old snail.
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Nope. Michael is awful base-kit but a couple add-ons make him really good. Blight is perfect base-kit but a few add-ons make him op.
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Yes, if the survivors react frame 1, perfectly move away in a straight line, you place the guard directly on top of them and there was 0 input lag then yes, it's impossible. No player can react frame 1 with no input lag. The base range is 8ms so if the survivor takes 0.5 seconds to react, have inefficiency in their pathing or have to run around walls then it still can hit. Saying good survivors take half a second to react, assuming perfect pathing, isn't unreasonable it's pretty natural.
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No.
If the killer seems to absolutely require an optional addon in order to be good, that means there is a flaw in their core design. That would be the same as saying a killer is bad unless they take a specific perk that makes them good. It's not the killer that is good, it's the added benefit filling in a serious hole in their basic design.
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It's highly subjective but if you consider all add-ons you get weird results like A tier Myers and Clown and obviously nobody thinks either of those killers are A tier. But at the same time pretending add-ons don't exist is silly when they're a part of a killer.
I personally average it out and only consider everything up to greens ignoring purples and reds since that's when you get to you're almost playing a different killer territory where as browns to greens are base stat buffs usually.
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i think you can make a tier list with best add-on on each killer in mind. your entitled to have your own opinion on what you class as strong. I think the problem with a lot of tier lists in dbd follow popular opinion over their own personal opinion. its likely because of appeal to authority and fear of being lift out. If you think MDR spirit is #1 best killer in the game, then it is fine opinion to have. others may not agree with it though. part of having opinion is dialogue to disagree with others. if you always agree with everyone else, then you fall under sheep mentality.
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I would say no. No killer should have required addons. However if the addon in question is brown, then it at least pushes the problem into not an emergency territory. Also judging their power assuming they'll have the brown equipped is reasonable.
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No. Any addon-dependent killer is worthless in my book.
What, you have to farm to make it usable? Hell no.
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This.
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