my solution to camping and tunneling
hi,
i have got a good solution in my opinion to prevent camping and tunneling or to at least make them totally unattractive.
the following changes could succeed on that:
- make decisive strike basekit for every survivor,
- make off the record basekit for every survivor,
- make reassurance basekit for every survivor,
- make kinship basekit for every survivor,
- increase the usage range of reassurance from 8 to at least 16 meters
IF some killers think this is too overpowered also add the following:
- make no way out basekit for every killer encouraging them to hook multiple survivors
these changes should all make camping and tunneling no fun for killers abusing these mechanics while still not being too overpowered because all of these perks either are a one time use, if a person finds themself in an unpleasant gaming situation or they deactivate on conspicuous actions like healing, repairing a generator, cleansing or blessing a totem, unhook a survivor or open an exit gate. in addition to that decisive strike and off the record deactivate once the exit gates are powered making them less abusive.
if you want to camp 5 seconds to ensure the hooked survivor hits stage 2 that would still be possible. on the other hand survivors don't have to waste a perk slot for these perks that ensure a healthy gameplay experience. it's totally frustrating dying 1st hook having to hang there three whole minutes on the hook without being able to do anything in that match. it's also extremely frustrating being tunneled as the only person right after being unhooked.
these changes should be cool for every survivor and also for every killer who isn't camping or tunneling i would say. on the other hand if that would be too strong for some people behavior could encourage killers to hook every survivor at least once in return and therefore giving them basekit no way out. this would also guarantee a way healthier match in return to these anti-camping and anti-tunneling perks added for every survivor as basekit.
mytea
Comments
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Someone is living in fantasy land...
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ok, but now base killer speed is 20.0
and to repair the generator, the survivors need to spend at least 40 years
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If you really want to make tunneling/camping less appealing then make spreading hooks worthwhile. 3 survivors with 1 hook each is far worse than 1 survivor with 3 hooks.
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It's not "wasting a perk slot" if it does something you want to counter.
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This is a game design issue that can't really be fixed without seriously reworking the nature of the game.
These changes would need to rework a ton of perks and perks that can be paired to avoid survivors abusing these new base mechanics. Secondly like all second chance perks, if not used by endgame, they will be disabled.
On the killers end there is glaring issue of ignoring "nice guy" playstyle. Generally in more serious lobbies with good survivors, killers who don't tunnel and don't camp lose more often then they win because they refused to tunnel and camp.
It's a viable strategy, that's just the way the game is designed and is sometimes necessary to secure a win which most people want.
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that's exactly what basekit no way out would be for. encouraging to hook multiple ppl.
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it's wasting at that point when it blocks a perk that could help me in the game whereas these perks prevent certain killer actions that shouldn't have to be prevented in the first place. so ultimately they are wasting a perk slot.
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If this would be added gens will have to be increased to 120s as well.
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it's true that it's a game mechanic, but everything can be addressed and also changed. they devs should need to do something about that and not ignore it. there would nothing be to abuse. the only thing that could be abused which is already abused at its current state is ppl with off the record blocking the killer from going after other players...especially paired with ds to ensure these killers waste time, but this could also be addressed by something a content creator has already suggested...remove collision for players who have just been unhooked until they perform conspicuous actions. then you don't have to deal with these annoying survivors who want to abuse such mechanics just to ######### you up while you can still keep a layer of protection for survivors who don't want to abuse these mechanics and just keep them for their own safety like it should be.
if ppl had basekit reassurance, kinship, off the record and ds face camping or tunneling wouldn't be a valid tactic anymore. therefore would have to go for other players. i can't count the times i have been face camped at 1st hook til i died after boring 3 minutes hanging on the hook or being tunneled out of the game being the only person hooked. i have just had such a game today or rather multiple games like that. my teammates showed themselves and weren't hiding, but the killer still went for me all game long. the result was 4 ppl leaving the trial and me with 2 hooks states as the only survivor in that trial. so was it really worth it trying to tunnel me out of the game? i doubt it and it's no fun for both sides i'd say except for those bullies that are already in the game enjoying to torture other ppl, but these will remain in every game no matter what.
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yeah i wouldn't have a problem with that. when i play as killer i mostly feel like survivors are gen rushing their way through the trial even when i have strong gen regression or protection perks. i mean prove thyself wasn't addressed/nerfed at all, but perks like pop goes the weasel and now eruption have been.
just to clear things out i play both survivor and killer. so i can speak for both sides on a fair base.
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enough base Ds to stop tunneling
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well with the current nerfed ds it wouldn't even stop tunneling, but it would be a step into the right direction. additionally just ds wouldn't address the excessive face camping problem in this game. you can't do anything at all if a bubba face camps you in basement or stands right in front of you with his chainsaw. you can't do anything if a doctor face camps you constantly shocking the people who want to unhook. you can't do anything about an artist camping the hook while shooting birds across the map with dead man's switch to pressure gens and the hook at the same time. all the above has to be basekit. ds is nowhere near enough to prevent tunneling and camping in this game.
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Here's my solution to tunneling.
Quit the game and turn on something else.
Tunneling will either always be an issue or the game will end up being so survivor sided that kill rates will drop too close to single digit percentages.
Not because tunneling is the only way to get kills supposedly, but because survivors will use every safety net they're given in the most offensive method possible.
Case in point, BK Borrowed Time. How often will rescued survivors go out of their way to take a hit and then complain about you refusing to swing at them until 12 seconds pass? ESPECIALLY when they stand still in a doorway.
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A Better Solution of Camping and Tunneling is to:
- IF the Killer Camps to Gens, dont unhook.
- Dont pull Survivor off next to killer, then the Killer can tunnel.
- Dont pull Survivor off if the Killer can come back is relative time, then the Killer can tunnel.
- Dont loop the Killer near a Team-mate on the hook.
- Unhook when safe.
- If you must Unhook next to Killer take a hit for them, it makes you a target and not them.
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This is such an idealistic thinking so removed from reality...
Like sure there are survivors that make these mistakes. But these things will solve absolutely nothing against decent killer that wants to just win (I am not blaming killer for this - I am blaming developer's design. Each side should try to win, but devs should make sure most optimal strategy is not the most problematic one).
Because any such decent killer will proxy camp and tunnel immediately and there's nothing you can do about that one. There will be no safe unhook. There's no point in taking hits. Even downs will result in nothing, because such down would be trade where tunneling one guy out is more optimal. And devs should make sure that this is not the case. Instead we got DS nerf so NO KILLER EVER respects it (because why would he? It usually prolongs the chase by 6s anyway if said survivor even brought the perk at all).
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This just in, using common sense tactics is too idealistic.
The number of tunneling incidents would reduce if people waited for the killer to be out of ear shot, or at LEAST wait for someone else to provide a distraction.
It's not hard.
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I'm glad we understand each other, YES Survivors not doing not smart actions is quite idealistic, but that's not the Killers problem.
Don't nerf Killers because survivors are being not smart. Its not my problem.
Fix the MMR instead so the bad survivors can end up in Low MMR, where the unwise survivors belong instead.
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My point was it doesn't matter if survivors make this mistake or not (and in my experience survivors don't do that - at least not often). Killers will capitalize on it anyway if they want to play optimal game. Because the game design just dictates that most optimal strategy is to zone/proxy camp and then hard-core tunnel. So if killer plays optimally (aka boring), then all 6 of your points are totally meaningless. And again - I don't blame killers for this - they just play optimally. This is something devs should actually fix.
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Survivors have multiple perks to deal with tunneling and perks to deal with camping and they can do gens and get out.
But they rather Dead Hard, and twerk, its their funeral.
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1, DH is also anti-tunneling perk.
2, there are no GOOD perks against tunneling now. DS got nerfed. It basically works now only as 1x 6s chase extender and bleeding-status remover (so in combination with DS, now it's much riskier version of old DS, but takes 2 perk slots). OTR helps only against killers that don't really tunnel (making it especially bad, because it disproportionally punishes killers that don't tunnel by survivor getting healed and then having 3 guaranteed health states for about a minute). Against real tunnelers it's basically just old Iron will for 80s and that's it (because you will get hit within first 10s of your BT anyway).
So again. Current design with OTR and nerfed DS is just pure bad. Most of killers do tunnel but still survivors don't bring anti-tunneling perks that much, because they plain suck at their job. If they were good at their job, they would be used a lot (and killers would complain again that most of lobby have THAT anti-tunneling perk on most of survivors). Tunneling is just too good strategy and there are too few good counters against it in the game as is. Meaning it will remain to be the problem and it will be even worse so long as there are fewer ways to combat the strategy.
We would need just 1 good anti-tunneling perk and the problem would be fixed to quite some degree (with exception to said killer complains about how many people bring the perk) - this was already done with reassurance to combat hard/face camping. The opposite was done to combat tunneling (and yes basekit BT helps, the chase didn't last less then 1s if somebody didn't bring BT and killer was tunneling, but it did nothing to prolong the chase above 30s (disregarding survivor being much better looper then killer) - which was killer's win every single time - it's impossible to do gens quickly enough for other survivors to power the gate before last survivor gets "tunneled out" like this). So the only way survivors can win is if single survivor can loose killer or loop him for 2+ gens every time - which means killers will say maps are OP and it's too easy to loop killers (something mentioned in these threads all the time).
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there are no GOOD perks against tunneling now.
False. I use them myself and while I know how to evade a killer it helps still. I see a lot of Survivors whine because nerfed DS wont help them against sweaty Nurse or Blight, but they still do work against those. But ofc they are not the free escape which Survivors want those perks to be. Face reality. OTR and DS are not bad at all.
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By my count, you've added 4 perks as base kit for Survivors but only one for Killer. So why not keep going and make 3 more killer Perks base kit that rewards not camping and tunneling?
Base kit BBQ and Chili
Base kit old Thanatophobia
Base kit old Pop Goes the Weasel
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STBFL, brutal strength and thana were basekit from 6.1 on killers. And I see only BT on survivor. What do you mean?
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Firstly, I'm talking about this proposal so changes in 6.1 are irrelevant to this discussion.
Secondly, even if they were... killers never had base kit Thana. They got 50% of Brutal and 25% of STBFL. Survivors also got the post unhook movespeed bonus from Guardian/Babysitter base kit.
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1, I don't think it's irrelevant. It's recent change and it fully applies
2, 10s longer solving of gen?
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Your ideas are to : punish killers more.
This is wrong.
We need to reward killers with a built in base kit bonus objective that is more rewarding than tunneling. It's really that simple.
Example : every time you hook someone for the first time every survivor gets a -8% speed penalty to generators, totems, healing actions, chests, doors, etc. This stacks up to 4 times and is only available if no one has been killed yet.
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I have a solution to stop genrushing. Pain res is basekit, corrupt is basekit, deadlock is basekit, call of brine goes up to 600% regression, eruption blocks gens for 30 minutes, and BNPs make the survivor holding them Broken for the rest of the game.
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1. It is irrelevant because we're discussing how to make tunneling and camping less desirable. Something the 6.1 changes actually did the opposite of. OP suggested to buff survivors massively to do it and I suggested we massively buff both. That way we both have a better stick to punish tunneling and a better carrot to entice not tunneling.
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you don't have to tunnel in order to win. you can also only hook two survivors in exchange constantly. that's no tunneling and still will give you a win if you are good enough or the map god is on your side. if you get bad map rng or toxic survivors you will almost always lose. besides that basekit mori shall be in the game anywhere in the future. if you get all downed u just have to kill one person and all others die if you downed them. so it doesn't matter what safety net they previously had. if you manage to down them (despite ds and off the record not even working in the endgame) you'll win still. the perks i have mentioned are there just to secure you don't directly go for the person that got unhooked and also that u don't stand there at the hook the whole time. kinship only works when a survivor is near and standing there without unhooking only makes sense if the killer is face camping. reassurance serves the same purpose. if the killer stands there doing nothing, but face camping then the camped survivor at least gets some points because u as killer could go for other survivors instead. ds would ensure that u don't go for the unhooked even though many killers still do it nonetheless and ds got hugely nerfed that with a strong killer you don't even get anywhere safe even if u stunned the killer with ds. off the record serves the same purpose of not being able to be tunneled. while your off the record is on you can't perform any conspicuous actions or it will wear off. all of these perks can't be abused in any way. they only serve the purpose for a healthy match and i have already suggested multiple times that all survivor items except for brown items should be removed entirely the same as all killer addons except the brown ones and then implement certain addons as basekit into killers. therefore one the one hand balancing would be a piece of cake and on the other hand there wouldn't be totally garbage killers and very strong killers with very strong addons like double range nurse (which got nerfed), tombstone myers being able to kill you right away even though they did nothing in that match just to name a few.
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no it doesn't. even when i get unhooked while the killer is all across the other side of the map i will get tunneled. they will just search for that one person and go for them only. nothing is solved with that especially if it's a very strong killer that can easily down you. even if you healed in safety and they come back at that time and tunnel you then what do you do? if you get tunneled u will be hooked again and then again.
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that does absolutely nothing about face camping or tunneling killers. even if the survivors are smart unhooking when i'm not there i can still search the survivor i have just hooked previously and hook them again. then i will repeat the process and they are out without having done anything in that trial. same goes to face camping. if i stand right in front of you as bubba with my chainsaw nobody can unhook you and you say that this is the problem of not smart survivors? how is that a problem of not smart survivors if i can literally stand right in front of the hook and there is nothing you can do. if u unhook u will go down and if you don't unhook i will face camp that survivor til they die on hook. is that your way of saying that this is fun and enjoying the game? being face camped to death or tunneled?
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which perk? name me only one that works efficiently against camping and tunneling.
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what purpose does ds serve if the killer doesn't leave ur hook and face camps you? correct! nothing! if a bubba face camps you with their chainsaw nobody can unhook you. period! oh and if i play blight or nurse i don't give a ######### if you have ds or off the record. i will shred through 6 health states in seconds. if i hit u once with otr u can't use dh so u'll go down easily. if u have got another exhaustion perk i will bump into 3 more walls and u r down again. then hit me with ur ds and i will down u again in seconds. with nurse it's even easier because u don't even care if there are windows or pallets. u will just teleport right through them. a good nurse doesn't care if u got ds, otr and dh. u will go down in seconds anyways.
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If the Killer is camping do gens, again in turn if the Survivors do Gens then the Killer will not leave with many points defeating the purpose of camping.
If you are not unskilled, you can use We'll Make It, Guardian, Renewal, Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike and Off The Record.
All of those perks will help you with tunneling.
For Camping, there are Reassurance and not getting Caught.
if you go down in 6 seconds to a Nurse then you should not be matched with that Nurse mate.
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Any decent nurse will down you again in 6s every single time with current DS. You can be anywhere. You just make no distance to hide behind something to actually juke her. Blight & spirit is in similiar position if slightly worse (yes - god pallet will help you in this case - but why would you die in that spot if you were next to god pallet anyway?).
Anyway - none of the mentioned perks will even help you if killer proxy camps into immediate tunnel. Not a single one of those.
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Again is like you are not listening at all, if Nurse downs you in 6 seconds the MMR is off. if you expect perks to help you about an off-mmr nurse that thats not intended and there is no way bHVR should buff perks to save you from an off-mmr nurse. There is no way that would be fair to actual balanced mmr.
But they will help you vs a fair mmr matchup. I have used them myself MANY times.
Perks are not designed to save you against people who have honed their skills with a Killer too much.
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this would kill the game
the solution to camping and tunnelling isnt to heavily deter it, but heavily promote going for different people.
sure, you could make all these perks basekit, but then what could killer do? they cant camp, cant tunnel, cant slug if basekit unbreakable comes, cant hit and run cause of coh, cnt play endgame builds because 99ing the gates + adrenaline + they cant camp so the pressure in endgame is non existant, and they cant chase the unhooker because they have 3 health states-why chase them over the unhooked who has at most 2? all they can do is 3 gen and stall the game until survivors give up, and be real, youd rather be tunnelled than wait 20+ minutes because the killer refuses to chase you and leave their 3 gen.
something like basekit pain res-but it only triggers when the survivor being hooked wasnt the last one being hooked. sure, killer can try to tunnel, but they wont get that free gen regression that would come from going for someone else. dont nerf tunneling, buff not tunneling
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ideally, the endgame should NEVER happen. this would be a fairly useless change
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one/two stacks of stbfl, weaker brutal strength, and thana was never basekit lmao. bt is way stronger than all 3 of those combined
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OR... they could increase base Gen regression
Some Killers Tunnel cause they don't have regression to match progression... and by taking a Survivor out as soon as possible it slows down the match
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My friend.
The killer finding you a second time
is not tunneling.
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Matching regression w progression is the reason survivor genrush-at-max meta was born. It makes 0 sense and 0 fun to play 1hr match w killer, because killer is able to match survivor's progression and stall the game indefinitely.
But I said so in previous threads. Base killer's regression is too weak. Buff it and at the same time nerf regression perks (so that no-regression builds would be quite stronger and at the same time 2-4 regression-builds would become weaker). This would actually make chase perks more meaningful.
No. You misunderstood. I was talking in a sense that I don't care who you are. Even if you are Ayrun/Sweh/whoever... Current DS against decent nurse will most often extend your chase by 6s (if not paired with DH/OTR which again makes DS just 1-time reset bleeding perk). The perk is IMO total trash. It helps only against weaker killers
Me and raised kill stats highly disagree with you.
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I'm not saying to make it even... all I'm saying is too increase base Gen regression at least a little bit
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doing gens only helps the rest of the team, but not the person being face camped => leading to the point depipping should be removed entirely. in addition to that camping killers don't care for points. so only the camped survivor actually loses something precious besides the fun for that game.
we'll make it only works if the killer doesn't tunnel right away. if you don't have time to heal the unhook person we'll make it does absolutely nothing for these two purposes. guardian also doesn't do enough to prevent tunneling. the killer must be extremely blind if they can't find a person who got protected by guardian. renewal doesn't help you if you get tunneled right after being unhooked because you will go down within that time span not to mention that renewal doesn't even trigger when you're already broken and i guess it doesn't even heal you if you are in deep wound due to basekit bt or even off the record just like adrenaline. bt doesn't prevent tunneling...it just delays the inevitable. strong killers don't even care if you got off the record. why would they care for bt? ds is a joke with its 3 seconds. by the time the stun ends especially strong killers would have downed you not long after that. off the record also has its downs, but is probably the best anti-tunneling perk at the games current state. it's still not too good though because you wouldn't be able to use dead hard for example and sprint burst/lithe/balanced landing are easily counterable by strong killers. also even if you got healed while off the record hid your aura you can still be tunneled afterwards. you again just delay the inevitable. reassurance does ######### about camping. you can't even use it if a bubba camps somebody in basement. how is this perk good then? furthermore players who face camp don't care if you run reassurance. they will stand there no matter what and don't care about losing. i have had it many times. the nerf to reassurance made it worse and the limited range doesn't help at all. you have to come so close to hook that you either go down or the killer just doesn't care about you. "not getting caught" is also a dumb way of saying things. i'm not the best player, but i'm far from being on beginner level. i can prolong chases quite long most of the time even for 5 gen chases, but there are times you still get caught no matter what and as stated previously hiding your aura for the moment with off the record just helps momentarily.
i can clearly see that everybody will go down to a very good nurse in 6 seconds. if you know how to play nurse there is nothing survivors can do. you will hit 99,9 % of the times and you can easily close the gap. i rarely see even good survivors last long against a very good nurse and you will go down for sure. it's just a matter of time and how much time you can buy for your team.
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a nurse, blight, spirit or even oni can easily snowball. so you can easily pain res between two survivors. go for the unhooker get another pain res. then chase after the unhooked get another pain res. go back to the now unhooked and previous unhooker to get another pain res. that's not a solution to tunneling or camping. you have to give killers a reason to leave is always mentioned, but the killer has a reason to leave. there are 5 generators to defend and 3 other survivors that could be chased. there is not a single reason to face camp or tunnel somebody out of the game. the only valid reason to proxy camp would be if there are 3 remaining gens in close proximity to the hooked person for example. why would i leave these 3 remaining gens AND the hooked person? that's why i also said that basekit no way out could be in consideration. rewarding to hook every person at least once to get a longer end game is not a bad deal imo. the mentioned perks in my initial post all prevent camping or tunneling though, but not enough to block a perk slot. ds for example gives u a 3 second stun whereas many killers can easily catch up after such a short stun and even after the initial 5 seconds catching up wasn't a hard thing for strong killers.
camping and tunneling shouldn't be a tactic that is needed by killers in order to win. killers already got improved kicking speed, a low lvl stbfl and even reduced stun time if i'm not mistaken. that's a good thing to make weaker killers stronger, but also makes stronger killers even stronger. perks like reassurance or kinship only do something if the killer stands there doing absolutely nothing whereas they could go search and hook other survivors or defend the remaining generators. if there is only 1 generator remaining and you got no hooks then of course camping is the only option, but that's not a thing i take into consideration here.
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you're wrong. with a patch not too long ago the speed of kicking things and the recovery from hits was reduced for killers entirely over the board. bt just gives u 10 seconds longer protection. a strong killer doesn't care for that. they will catch u within seconds even after hitting you into deep wound.
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yeah or the time it takes survivors to complete generators. that would also be an option on the killer side, but only if the named perks would be basekit for survivors.
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it's tunneling the moment the killer ONLY goes for you. the time span between that doesn't matter at all. if they ignore other survivors intentionally and only go for you then it's tunneling. it doesn't have to be right off the hook to be called tunneling.
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They just did increase the Gen times... so no
They need to increase the Gen regression and adjust the Gen progression
Why make more perks basekit??? and why just Survivors???
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If the killer is throwing the game to the point that they attempt to track you down across the map instead of going after other players, you start hiding and avoiding generators like the plague. If the killer is explicitly abandoning or not even interacting with other survivors, then he's doing the bare minimum if even that for gen protecting and your undisturbed teammates will do the work for you.
Any survivor with basic knowledge will realize what's going on and attempt to make themselves a target and hinder the killer and will realize why you're spending the rest of the game doing a Blendette impression.
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