We have temporarily disabled The Houndmaster (Bone Chill Event queue) and Baermar Uraz's Ugly Sweater Cosmetic (all queues) due to issues affecting gameplay.

Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
The Dead by Daylight team would like your feedback in a Player Satisfaction survey.

We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.

Access the survey HERE!

Tunneling can never be solved

Heytherebigguy
Heytherebigguy Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 226

Fix the maps, make more safe loops unsafe, give base kit BBQ, give anything.

Killers who usually tunnel - will tunnel. why? cause it's the easy way, if it's the most easy way to win. even having no pallets at all in the map - some killers will still tunnel someone to death, which will break the game since then with the nerfes maps and loops for survivors, 5 gen tunneling will be literally uncounterable.

The only way to fix tunneling is to make the survivor unhooked trade an health state with the unhooker.

Comments

  • Dbdfan398
    Dbdfan398 Member Posts: 184

    Tunnelling is worse now than its ever been, and its the hardest to do now then ever.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,671

    Giving the unhooked survivor permanent zero collision until they perform a conspicuous action or until the killer hooks a different survivor would solve the tunneling issue. Not active after gens are powered of course.

    However we can’t implement something like this until tunneling is no longer required.

  • ARTRA
    ARTRA Member Posts: 938

    Unless Bhvr change somehow killer win condition, lets say hook survivors X times in total so all survs win and lose as a team(random example), tunneling its going to happen.

    3v1 its easy than 4v1 and there is no reward for spread hooks.

  • Steakdabait
    Steakdabait Member Posts: 1,294

    Can you explain more on how making unhooked survivors not have collision will prevent tunneling? I do believe that unhooked survivors should have no collision during their BT timer but that idea isn't meant to prevent tunneling

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,671

    The killer can’t even touch them much less tunnel them with zero collision. IE as soon as he’s unhooked he could literally just stand there and the killer couldn’t do anything to them.

  • Steakdabait
    Steakdabait Member Posts: 1,294

    So by "no collision" you actually mean invincibility? I wouldn't go that far. You shouldn't be able to body block or be blocked but you should still have your hitbox active.

  • MrPeanutbutter
    MrPeanutbutter Member Posts: 1,586

    I play both sides and when I play killer I’ve found tunneling to be the most effective way to deal with SWF squads. Most of the time they will all try to body block and/or hook sabo, taking them all off gens and slowing the game way down to my advantage. Why would I stop doing this?

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,671
    edited February 2023

    Think of them like a ghost. They can’t do anything, but you can’t touch them and you even walk threw them so they can’t body block you. If they can’t do anything to progress the game or prevent you from getting others why does it matter if they have a hit box?

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,522

    To be nice... There is no other reason it's usually best play you can do to win. But if you dominate the game and get downs quickly it's not neccessary. Few times it might even backfire and you get looped 5 gens if you chose wrong target. It's important to know when to use it.

    Personally reason why I avoid hard tunneling because I don't find it fun. I play both sides so I hope to have good games to earn bp and if all I do is to tunnel as killer all I should expect as survivor is getting tunneled... So my mindset is first just try get hooks and debending how the gens and chases go I might use strats if needed.

    Also I don't want to sweat always as I have noticed that only getting 3-4K will put you agains't sweatiest teams and agais't them you have to tunnel to even have chance. So personally I go for 1-2K and 9-10 hooks mostly. Occasionally I still take 3-4K.

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437

    Tunneling is not necessary on maps smaller than 9000m². Therefore I have to ask why do maps larger than that exist?

    What is different on a small map? During chase you find people on gens naturally and can often partially interrupt people multiple times per game.

    Only the fastest killers or teleporters can play large maps. You just dont have time to go to a generator and have the survivor pre-run early b/c their SWF team told them you dropped chase.


    Tunneling can be ended very easily. You give the killer a reward better than removing someone form the game. For example : imagine if base kit the killer got a permanent 8% stacking penalty to gen speeds for each unique player hooked as long as no one has been removed from the game.

    Or you give the killer the ability to kick completed generators. The generators are everything and all you need to do is make sure the important ones don't ever stay at 100% completion.

    Or you give killers generator regression/blocking for each hook. Imagine for example if hooking a survivor made the gen with the most progress regress as if the killer had kicked it and prevented any survivor from working that generator until the hooked player had been rescued. Obviously this would only work if the killer is 16m away from the hook (starts immediately with a grace period to leave the hook zone) and would only work for one generator/hooked survivor not multiple.

  • RaSavage42
    RaSavage42 Member Posts: 5,566

    Yes it is Maps... Spawns for everything need to be looked at

    But it's also base Gen regression VS. base Gen progression

    Base Gen regression is .25 charges per second and only Call Of Brine and Overcharge change that

    Base Gen Progression is 1.0-2.2 and Prove Thyself, Toolboxes ETC change that

    How about they fix those things before introducing new things

  • Rudjohns
    Rudjohns Member Posts: 2,216

    It can be solved

    By giving the unhooked survivor invincibility for a period of time

    Not endurance, flat out invincibility

    They cannot get downed by any means except being grabbed in a locker

    And of course, conspicuous action still applies, and the effect stops when the exit gates are powered

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 5,848

    I agree it'll never be gone. People have been tunnelling for as long as I've been playing. It will always happen. IMO though, best thing BHVR can do is just implement more perks to help counter it. So that way, killers still have the option but it becomes a lot riskier because they dont know if the survivor theyre focusing on has certain perks up their sleeves. Plus then it's ultimately up to the survivors to choose how important to them it is to counter it and whether to dedicate part of their build to it.

    I honestly don't see tunnelling a huge amount in my games, so for me it'd be a waste of perk slots. But I see alot of people claim they get tunnelled multiple times in a row, so for them it'd be worth it. And on the plus side - more builds with perks addressing strats like that, means less gen speed perks being used. So win win.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,884

    I'd be fine with the unhooked survivor loosing collision (at the expense of the ability to use items because an invincible survivor running around doing flashlight saves isn't exactly fair) until they touch a gen or heal or until someone else gets hooked, if the killer had any incentive not to tunnel. But right now, how is a B-tier killer (and below) expected to keep up with 4 medkits / toolboxes with the strongest addons and perks plus map offerings every game? What once was the exception is now the average game.

    I just had a game as Wraith with a more gimmicky build around Hex: Face the Darkness and lost 2 gens in 53 seconds. I literally started to stop the time for my matches because it's that ridiculous. When I had one person dead with one gen left to do I could finally start playing the game. If I hadn't tunneled that match would have ended in 4 minutes with me maybe getting 4 hooks? These survivors weren't even amazing in chase. They just outpaced me.

  • Dbdfan398
    Dbdfan398 Member Posts: 184

    Except you ignore all the genrush perks now in the game, and basekit BT, OTR

  • kottonkhandi
    kottonkhandi Member Posts: 15

    Like, what if BHVR changed it, so that when you are 3 hook sacrificed, you stay in the match as a ghost, and there are secondary objectives(that only the ghost survs are able to see/complete), that when completed open the exit gate in a quicker time than the "alive" survivors doing gens could do. Kind of like how Among Us games are. I believe something like that would help incentivize hooks over kills, which would possibly help tone down tunneling and camping from killers(albeit gen eff. would have to be adjusted, however it would also give those that have been sacrificed something to do to gain a little more bp/help their fellow survivors) Thoughts?

  • Thusly_Boned
    Thusly_Boned Member Posts: 2,981

    Not only is it the easiest/laziest way to win, it's also the most instinctual, lizard brained thing to do. Just secure your kill; it's probably the base instinct for anyone dropped in the game.

    Add to that the fact many people just get tilted and decide that even if everyone else gets out, you're not going to.

    For those reasons, tunneling is never going away. It's more a player issued than a game design flaw.

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,534

    But if gens go slower then it is easier to tunnel 1 out and still win?

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,884

    You're not wrong. However it's not like you need the best survivors in the game to absolutely stomp half the killer roster. Especially weaker killers can never be as fast in progressing their objective as some survivors are. Take Freddy for example. There are groups that will relentlessly gen rush you and end the game in under 5 minutes. How can a Freddy ever hope to compete with that? Tunneling could MAYBE make it a bit easier but at the end of the day these survivors don't even need to be incredible in chase. Simply holding Shift + W and pallet camping would buy them enough time to win.

    My point is that these 'Low-Mid skill survivors' can easily beat half the killer roster with their preset loadouts. It doesn't matter, if the killer is played by a new player or killer veteran. They simply have no right plays to make (other than hoping to defend a 3 gen).

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266

    Assume 1 survivor should be always in chase and other 3 are doing Gen. 1 survivor dies early mean the Gen progression cut down at least 33%. There is no reward as good as cut down 33% Gen speed.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,884

    That's pretty creative. Though I'm not sure how the devs would balance that. You'd have freshly unhooked survivors throwing themselves at the killer every game in the hope the killer 'tunnels' them out.

    I like the idea but from a balancing point of view this would be a nightmare (I think).

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,537

    Tunneling can be ended very easily. You give the killer a reward better than removing someone form the game. For example : imagine if base kit the killer got a permanent 8% stacking penalty to gen speeds for each unique player hooked as long as no one has been removed from the game.

    So you can get a max of 32% slowdown for 4 hooks, or, what, 50-60% slowdown for 3?

    People need to really stop talking garbage about how killers just need to be buffed out the wazoo to compensate for tunnelling. It's not going to work. It is never going to work. You've got people crying their asses off about how unfair the game is to killers when killer has never been easier than it is now, and yet tunnelling is at an all-time high.

    We -know- that killers are just going to drop the bar for what they consider 'viable' and demand more buffs 'or else we'll tunnel'. It's the killer's beatstick. It's just something they pull out of storage to mess up talks of balancing and demand easier games. "Just make the game literally unwinnable for survivors, and we -might- tunnel a bit less"

    Except everyone knows that as soon as you screw up anything in your game and a single gen gets done, you'll go straight back to tunnelling.

    Tunnelling needs to be nerfhammered into the ground. It needs to be a garbage tactic that feels as terrible for the killer to employ as it is for the survivors to face.

    And we -know- DS is a good deterrent, so all we need is for that to be basekit (And the stun cut reverted), with perhaps the tweak that you have no killer collision while it's up. Make it only usable against tunnellers and you'll seriously push that tactic back down.

    Basekit BT accomplishes nothing. OTR doesn't work if the killer tunnels hard enough. Genrush perks do nothing against tunnelling. In fact, the only 'genrush' perk that sees any consistent use is countered by tunnelling.

    DS actually made tunnelling suck, before it got a random 50% nerf.

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437
    edited February 2023

    -"killer has never been easier than it is now, and yet tunnelling is at an all-time high."

    Killer is not strong right now. The hud changes massively tilt the game if everything else were fine (it's not). The 6.0 patch caused Otz to start tunneling and right now Truetalent is playing killer by request and otherwise plays survivor.


    -"Tunnelling needs to be nerfhammered into the ground."

    Let me guess - you are one of those players that think it's fine for survivors to tunnel generators but bad when killers do it? Tunneling needs to be removed from the game for BOTH sides. Most people don't consider the killer's fun. It's not fun to lose 2/5 or 3/5 of your objectives in the first chase.

    Why do killers tunnel?

    1. Because survivors tunnel gens.
    2. Gen speeds are too fast relative to chase speeds when we look at high skilled play. Only Nurse/Blight really have much of a chance.
    3. Base kit borrowed time encourages more tunneling. I know that doesn't make sense but that is what happens.
    4. Map sizes overall are unfair unless you are playing Nurse/Blight.
    5. Because you get nothing for going for 4 different people as part of the base kit.

    It's not some narrative it's very simple.

    Consider what do you get if you get 33% of a generator finished? You get nothing if the generator resets. Imagine a killer asking the survivors to get all 7 generators to 33% before trying to get one generator before 66% progress. It's ridiculous right? Well it's foolish to ask the killer not to tunnel.

    You need to give the killer something better than tunneling to discourage it.

    Post edited by Rizzo on
  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,537
    edited February 2023


    Killer is not strong right now. The hud changes massively tilt the game if everything else were fine (it's not). The 6.0 patch caused Otz to start tunneling and right now Truetalent is playing killer by request and otherwise plays survivor.

    Killer is at its strongest, and tunnelling is more prevalent now than ever. This proves that this idea that folks like to spout on the forums of 'Killers only tunnel because they can't win otherwise' is nonsense. Buffing killers does not decrease tunnelling at all, yet you still want to cling onto it.

    And 6.0? 6.0!? That's the Dredge release. That did nothing for the overall game balance! If Otz started tunnelling there, then that proves that tunnelling has nothing to do with how strong killers are. It was just a random moment!

    Unless you meant to say 6.1, you know, the big perk overhaul that also gave killers a ton of compounding buffs. In which case you're smashing your own windows even harder.

    It's not fun to lose 2/5 or 3/5 of your objectives in the first chase.

    Then don't play killer. because the reality is that you are going to lose those difficult to pressure gens early on when the killer is at their lowest point. That is a necessity of balance. Plenty of games stall out really badly once the survivors only have one or two gens left to do. Not to mention that (And I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time) you leave out the exit gates and EGC.

    This also illustrates exactly what I'm talking about: You can just drop the bar. Because now you're not talking about having a fair match, now you're talking about how survivors get gens done. What's to stop you from getting just as upset and 'muh tunnelling' over survivors getting 1 gen done in first chase? Or getting 3 gens done over the entire match? It's shameful how often it happens that killers complain about something survivors can accomplish in matches that the killer wins by a landslide.

    Gen speeds are too fast relative to chase speeds when we look at high skilled play.

    You're not at 'high skill' play. None of you are. If even half of the people whinging about how they are 'forced to tunnel' were actually in 'high skill play', we'd have 25% of the playerbase somehow crammed in the top 5% MMR.

    Not to mention that if you DO tunnel, you're going to be pushing your MMR above where your chase skill is, so you're creating that problem for yourself in the first place!

    Well it's foolish to ask the killer not to tunnel.

    Congrats. That's why tunnelling needs to be beaten down into submission. No amount of asking nicely, no amount of 'dangling the carrot' is going to fix it. So stop advocating for a 'just buff killers' approach.

    You need to give the killer something better than tunneling to discourage it.

    Or you can -not- completely nuke the game by making regular gameplay as oppressive as tunnelling, and just nerf tunnelling instead.

    Besides, who's going to judge what's 'better than tunnelling'? Is it, perchance, the killer?

    What's to stop you from losing one (1) game and coming right back here to whinge about how you're 'forced to tunnel', and demand yet more buffs? After 6.1, I just don't take 'Just trust me, bro' for any kind of value.

    Post edited by Rizzo on
  • Rizzo
    Rizzo Member, Administrator, Mod Posts: 17,933

    Let's keep the discussion civil and constructive.

    Thank you.

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437

    -"Killer is at its strongest, and tunnelling is more prevalent now than ever."

    You obviously never played DBD when we had super bloodlust in 2018 .That was a pushback effort to make killers come back.


    -"Then don't play killer. because the reality is that you are going to lose those difficult to pressure gens early on when the killer is at their lowest point."

    If I lose 2 generators as a result of the first chase then the first survivor will usually pay for it with two hook states. And then I will tunnel them out of the game. This is the only way I come back form losing approximately half of my objective. Everyone knows this and that is why the best players that want to win are tunneling.


    -"What's to stop you from getting just as upset and 'muh tunnelling' over survivors getting 1 gen done in first chase?"

    Perhaps you should go watch some tryhard streamers who don't play Nurse or Blight all day. A lot of killer mains play with the intention to tunnel one player out on game start. Why? Because DBD stops being a fair game anything past mid level MMR (unless you are playing fully loaded Spirit/Blight).


    "You're not at 'high skill' play."

    My regular opponents are DBD comp tournament players. It's common for me to play against people with 5000-10000 hours more than not. But tell me more about how I'm not playing at high skill levels.


    -"That's why tunnelling needs to be beaten down into submission. No amount of asking nicely, no amount of 'dangling the carrot' is going to fix it"

    Tunneling is the most efficient way to play killer. Gen rushing with the mindset of gens before firends is the most efficient way to play survivor. But this too is tunneling. Survivors want to tunnel generators and not get tunneled out as a response. That is foolish.


    -"Or you can -not- completely nuke the game by making regular gameplay as oppressive as tunnelling"

    Which will it be then? One person gets removed every game by the third hook or the game is slowed down and you can't win in 4 minutes because the game is focused on chases not holding m1.


    Every comment you make has almost no consideration for the 5th player. It seems like the game would be a lot better for everyone if gens didn't get finished so fast. Then the killer would not feel the need to remove one survivor with the third hook. A base kit mechanic that makes the game harder but encourages keeping people alive would make the game more fun for all parties involved.

  • Firellius
    Firellius Member Posts: 4,537

    You obviously never played DBD when we had super bloodlust in 2018 .That was a pushback effort to make killers come back.

    Stop dodging the point: The situation has improved for killers past 6.1., and tunnelling went -up-, not down.

    If I lose 2 generators as a result of the first chase then the first survivor will usually pay for it with two hook states. And then I will tunnel them out of the game. This is the only way I come back form losing approximately half of my objective. Everyone knows this and that is why the best players that want to win are tunneling.

    That first chase has three survivors working on gens for a total of 300% progression speed. As soon as that first hook happens, that goes down to 100%, because you'll be chasing one, one's going for unhook/heal, and only one is left on gen. Stop getting hung up on the first chase.

    This is part of the problem: Competent killers understand that the first gen makes practically no difference. Neither does the second. It's the later ones that will make or break the game.

    You're making a stink over losing those two first generators, but how does the rest of the game progress for you? Because plenty of matches have one hook at 2-3 gens done, and then STILL end in a 4K. You're taking a tiny part of the game and going 'that's unfair', and you're throwing the rest of the picture out.

    Yes, you lose gens during your first chase. Everyone does. Yet somehow, everyone else is still getting kills, even without tunnelling, but you are the one struggling.

    Perhaps you should go watch some tryhard streamers who don't play Nurse or Blight all day. A lot of killer mains play with the intention to tunnel one player out on game start. Why? Because DBD stops being a fair game anything past mid level MMR (unless you are playing fully loaded Spirit/Blight).

    That's funny, because the kill rate is HIGHER at top 5% MMR than the total average. So it seems like -most- killer players actually outpace the survivors they're matched with.

    Just not you.

    Tunneling is the most efficient way to play killer. Gen rushing with the mindset of gens before firends is the most efficient way to play survivor. But this too is tunneling. Survivors want to tunnel generators and not get tunneled out as a response. That is foolish.

    Honeydoodle, if survivors are 'tunnelling' a generator, the killer wins. If they're all playing orbiter around a gen that they are desperate to finish, you have all the pressure and control you need because that gen is not getting finished while you're on top of it.

    This is the entire problem: Your demands for a 'fair game' are getting more and more outlandish as the discussion goes on. Survivors can't do gens during the first chase. Survivors can't finish gens. They can't be allowed to power the exit gates. You just keep dropping the bar for what you consider an 'unfair' game. No matter what you get, you will find something new to complain about, and we'll be right back here.

    Which will it be then? One person gets removed every game by the third hook or the game is slowed down and you can't win in 4 minutes because the game is focused on chases not holding m1.

    You know my decision. You know what I want the game to be aimed towards. The only difference between you and me is that you think survivors should not have any chance at victory.

    Every comment you make has almost no consideration for the 5th player. It seems like the game would be a lot better for everyone if gens didn't get finished so fast. Then the killer would not feel the need to remove one survivor with the third hook. A base kit mechanic that makes the game harder but encourages keeping people alive would make the game more fun for all parties involved.

    Here's the problem with everything you're arguing: YOU position yourself as the sole arbiter. You say I'm inconsiderate, but you fully disregard everything beyond your own limited experience. YOU think that YOU should be the one who, singlehandedly, gets to determine whether the game is fair, whether the game is slow enough.

    Say you implement everything YOU desire, and survivors get slowed down enormously, and you get in a chase with someone who massively outplays you, what's to stop YOU from failing to take the L on getting outplayed and instead just ruining the game for everyone else? Again?

    This is a gunfight. You and I are both tired of it, but whereas I'm perfectly willing to toss the gun out the window, you want to keep that gun in your back pocket, 'just in case'.

    No. We already know killers will just go back to tunnelling at the slightest inconvenience. Literally anything can be used as 'justification' for tunnelling, as you yourself are demonstrating. You need to be stripped of that toy, not just leave the entirety of the game exclusively in your hands with a half-hearted promise of 'I won't abuse it, trust me'.

    6.1. told me enough.

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,463

    Actually balancing maps will encourage more killer players to not tunnel.

    There is no way to "fix" tunneling, but the idea should be to weaken camping and tunneling as much as possible, while making fair playstyles of killers more viable. That's what DBD needs in the end.

    Right now, DBD needs nerfs to tunneling and camping, and better map balance, so killers don't have to deal with as many unfair maps anymore.

  • ad19970
    ad19970 Member Posts: 6,463

    I would argue that the BT basekit changes have definitely helped. They sure as hell haven't nerfed tunneling enough, but it definitely helped. Off the Record as well is a nice help against tunneling. But it' so frustrating that DS still hasn't been buffed back to 5 seconds stun duration.

    I would also argue that the solo queue buffs certainly have helped survivor, and have made killer, on average, slightly more challenging again. Certainly not the big difference that some people claim it has made, but it has made an impact for sure. This is also noticeable through queue times, which have become longer for survivor again.

    I do agree that tunneling and camping need to be nerfed, there is no way around that. If you buff killers in other ways, making their fair playstyle more viable, tunneling and camping need to be nerfed as well, otherwise there will always be people that will resort to those tactics because they give them easy wins.

    In the end we need both. We need nerfs to tunneling and camping, and buffs to killers fair playstyle. The most optimal way to do this is to balance maps properly, right now the game still has a lot of survivor sided maps. Though some early game slowdown would also work, however it would still require map balance, but now BHVR would have to look into both maps that would still be survivor sided, and maps that would become killer sided. Personally, I just hope BHVR starts looking at all their unbalanced maps and makes them fairer. And then, while doing so, they also need to implement more nerfs to tunneling and camping.

    Only nerfs to camping and tunneling without compensation for killer wouldn't work though, I am positive, considering queue times. Survvor queue times would become insufferable I fear.

  • Mr_K
    Mr_K Member Posts: 9,247

    Remove hooks and send down survivors to PH cages. There's your fix but you are trading a lot.

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437

    "-I would argue that the BT basekit changes have definitely helped."

    Base kit BT would have been fine if killers got base kit deadlock or corrupt. One said gets tunneling protection and the other side did not. That made the perk shake up reduce killer power overall vs SWF.

    BT also makes me feel like I need to tunnel more now because survivors are just that much safer.



    -"The situation has improved for killers past 6.1., and tunnelling went -up-, not down."

    It clearly did not because that patch made Otz start tunneling. Many killer mains went from I will tunnel if the survivors behave a certain way to: I will tunnel the first person hooked no matter what. You are not a killer main. You are telling me how my games play out with no knowledge of what happens in them.

    The Hud display made everything just absolutely gross. And then they gave survivors gen progress/heal percentages and it became absolutely ridiculous.

    SWF gives me somewhere between 4-12 perks worth of information depending on the team. Are we just going to say killer gets 8 perk slots now? I would be ok with this but you will hate how that plays out.


    -"Competent killers understand that the first gen makes practically no difference. Neither does the second."

    No this is how a survivor main thinks. You need to sit down and play a few thousand hours of killer. Then maybe you will actually play 500 games against extreme try hards and understand how terrible it feels right now playing killer.

    Breaking a three gen is the equivalent of killing one player. Tunneling needs to stop for both sides or neither.


    "the kill rate is HIGHER at top 5% MMR than the total average. So it seems like -most- killer players actually outpace the survivors they're matched with."

    The devs have always gathered poor statistics. I asked their stat guy two questions back in 2018 and his mind was completely blown. He said the answer to one of my questions would take a month or more to figure out. This was also a time when the devs said : swf gives no advantage. Bad data collection gives bad conclusions.

    We have never had data that looks at when downs happen vs when gens get completed. We don't ever really get to look at the "why".

    Stop projecting that I am bad at killer. I played three games last night and 2/3 were 4ks. One player got a hatch that spawned about 2m too close for me to punch him and pick him up before he could hop in. You cannot assume : the game is fine because I got 11 kills in 3 games. Multiple players from those games told me : I sucked at the game. This is funny because the people saying this were in games where I had an ironclad three gen that was never going to get broken. They didn't like how I played the game (forcing an attrition win) and wanted me to play the game on their terms where I would lose quickly.

    Simply put: the game was more fun back many years ago where we didn't have this gen before friends attitude.


    -"if survivors are 'tunnelling' a generator, the killer wins"

    I can't begin to explain how this single sentence shows how little you know about the game.


    -"Survivors can't do gens during the first chase."

    I never said that. Losing one gen in the first chase would be fine because that is the weakest pressure point for the killer. Losing two or three will always drive killers to tunnel. It's just a function of game mechanics because if you have one player dead, one player slugged/hooked then the gens slow to a crawl as you are chasing one player. The game pace needs to slow down. You want it to be fast for one side but want to make the other side pump the brakes. This is not logical or fair.


    -"you think survivors should not have any chance at victory."

    I think you lack some degree of reading comprehension if you think that is true. The survivors should not be able to finish a majority of their objective after one chase. It's far too easy to trade one hook state for one generator. You know this and that is why killers tunnel one person out.


    -"Literally anything can be used as 'justification' for tunnelling, as you yourself are demonstrating."

    The entire last portion of your reply is a nonsense rant. I want tunneling prevented for both sides. You want tunneling but only when it's generators and not survivors. There is no reason not to tunnel generators as a survivor. Knowing that - if the survivors tunnel gens then the killer loses if he does not tunnel a survivor. See the problem? It's ok I know you don't.


    I'm not interested in having more conversation with you because you want the game to only be fun/fair for one side. Killer should desire not to tunnel because there is a better reward. If you don't want that as a goal then you want the killer to continue removing the first player hooked from the game every time. It's really that simple. Make your choice.


    -"balancing maps will encourage more killer players to not tunnel."

    This is true but needs a caveat. Small maps generally speaking are more fair to killer because you can naturally find someone working on a generator while you are chasing someone else. This never happens on large maps because there is too much free space.

    Looking at the corn maps there is one map that is fair : Abattoir. It has a decent size at 8,704m. Does that mean small maps are fair? Sadly that's not true. The game is 9088m but it's only fair if you are playing a killer that can hit over pallets, instantly break them or ignore them (Huntress/Nemesis/Nurse/Blight/etc).

    Even coal tower is not a "fair" map (8448m) because there are too many resources in close proximity. It allows for too much looping before a pallet needs to be used. Overall Coal tower would be more fair if the resources were more spread out toward map edges so that running to a loop put you "away" from most of the other loops. Or imagine if there were more vault gyms and fewer pallet gyms. Imagine if the pallets were a valuable link that might allow you to chain from one gym to the other but those were the only regular pallets available.

    Overall DBD has too many pallets that completely shut off a killer's ability to get a hit. The idea : you must break this pallet or I can run around it indefinitely - should happen about once or maybe twice rarely on a map.

    Hawkins was a wonderful map. It was small and had mostly fair pallets with only a few god pallets. Why did we lose the ability to make maps like that?

  • Chaos999
    Chaos999 Member Posts: 869

    Agreed. Tunneling is the one thing that is nearly impossible to fix. It would require a fundamental change in the game that I wouldn't even know how to go about it.

    However, the uncomfortable fact is that tunneling is not without counter and can very easily turn a game into a 4 escape.

    Go ahead and try to tunnel a decent (not supremely skilled) player and see how it turns out.

    The issue is that a surprising number of players can't really perform well and against low skill players, any killer is overpowered.

  • Bluecat_OwO
    Bluecat_OwO Member Posts: 7

    "no way to fix tunneling" "no way to remove tunneling" "tunneling is unavoidable"

    what if you gave the unhooked person 5 stacked hit protections that each last 120 seconds, 50% speed boost, 3 decisive strikes, perfect stealth, body block immunity, & all of this base kit, but it goes away when conspicuous action?

    You could also make it so that when you hook the same person twice every other survivor gets a stacking action speed boost to everything.

    You could also make it so that killers that tunnel someone out of the match lose all their blood points IDK my point is you CAN fix tunneling but BHVR either don't want to or know how. You might say my suggested changes are overkill, you would be wrong, the only players affected are the players that tunnel. literally just dont tunnel people and you wouldn't have to deal with a 10 seconds decisive strike stun.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 3,203

    Tbh I think maps are largely why the survivor’s escape rate is at 38%. “Rebalancing maps” which is a buzz phrase for making them more convenient for killers always harms survivors.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,429

    Tunneling is more frequent than it used to be.

    That tells you that there was a factor of the game that dissuaded tunneling more than the current state of the game, that killers won't absolutely tunnel every chance they get, that it's a reaction to changes in game balance.

    Hooks over kills, is true, would disuade tunneling.

    Guess what used to encourage hooks over kills? The old BBQ & Chilli. Killers have often cited it as a secondary objective that they didn't minding losing the 4K in order to acheive four stacks of BBQ.

    Bring that sort of mechanic back, with other similar ones, and you'll see a reduction in tunneling.

    It's not an absolute.

  • Nick
    Nick Member Posts: 1,244
    edited March 2023

    The killers objective is to kill, going for the same person over and over will accomplish this the fastest. 3 hooks = 1 kill is faster than going the long way (the survivor rule book way) 8 hooks = 0 kills. Survivors doing gens= "just doing our objective". Killers killing people= "why? cause it's the easy way, if it's the most easy way to win"

    Changing the win condition to winning chases or getting hooks will require different playstyles. But making KILLING the win condition will make RUSHING kills the best way, get it?

  • hatchetChugger
    hatchetChugger Member Posts: 442

    As long as free will exists so will tunneling, stop complaining. (Not directed at you, tunneling threads are pointless)

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,568

    As long as the reward for killing a survivor is better than spreading hooks around, then tunneling will always be the best strategy.

    Tunneling will never be 100% removed, but if people actually want tunneling to not be the best option then the game needs to be rebalanced around not tunneling.