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I don't know how to play as killers anymore.

CookieBaws
CookieBaws Member Posts: 619
edited February 2023 in General Discussions

I was palying wesker with BW/NOED/HeadLock/SA. And i can't figure out wth i'm doing wrong. Regardles of what i do, i lose 2-3 gens before a single hook and the only way i got at least a kill was proxy and tunnel. I always pre-break doors, eat pallets etc. if needed, but there is so much wood to work with. I essentially need players who do mistakes and lucky tiles to get some kind of a fair play.

Comments

  • CookieBaws
    CookieBaws Member Posts: 619
    edited February 2023

    Agree, it would not be that bad if time to down a survivor wasn't that long, also while healing being soo free, In current meta it's so lose- lose.

    Chase to a down - lose gens, Drop chases - no hooks>no pressure>lose gens.

    Me: WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME?!

  • Gamall
    Gamall Member Posts: 487

    Try following some good content creators to see how you can improve, there are many that could help you. I think this can be a good starting point

  • Riski
    Riski Member Posts: 208

    I mean in many ways optimising your first chase is the most important part of the game. Wesker isn't a weak chase killer and many good Weskers can get downs on loops even if pallets get dropped (although it's difficult) so it's just a case of improving/un-rusting. Make sure the pressure and pallets are useful to you. Injuring people with medkits early isn't going to do much for you early so focus on people with flashlights and toolboxes, if the survivor is dropping a lot of pallets make sure it's an area you focus later so survivors are forced to play in an area with few resources or force survivors towards windows if you're more confident to get hits there. You can't decide where survivors go but you can force their hand, with your positioning, towards areas you like more.

    Finally for build, if you want to win more early game run less late game perks. Blood warden is inconsistent but fun and with NOED is cute, but if you're running multiple late game perks you will fall behind earlier and your matches may be stressful as a result as you're relying on a few plays to carry you. Deadlock is a good safety measure but a more early game focused could help. Corrupt is good if your first chases go slowly or lethal if you struggle to find people early, if you don't have these whisphers is the best free option although it's a bit worse on Wesker than other killers. I'm personally not sold on Superior Anatomy on Wesker but if you feel like it works on you go ahead, I find brutal a nice chase perk on him and I've seen others use I'm all ears as well.

  • Green_Sliche
    Green_Sliche Member Posts: 683

    Without perks that contribute well to gen defense and Deadlock it's normal to lose 1 - 2 gens per chase. Unless your build allows you to chase and down quickly, you will be losing gens for that reason. The build you seem to be using is end game build, which means until you have gens, you aren't benefiting from perks like Blood Warden and NOED at all. These perks also don't help you to chase in any way so you are essentially left with nothing but addons and skill to rely upon. Consider that not every map is good for your killer and you get those 50 - 50 games.

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,534

    Losing 2-3 gens is pretty normal on first chase and should realistically happen every game just like the killer on average gets 5-7 hooks per game

    Best you can do is play the 5 gens that you’re left with and focus on creating dead zones to lead survivors into especially if they predrop pallets

  • burt0r
    burt0r Member Posts: 4,163

    5-7 hooks per game on average?

    So 0-1k for every killer that does try to play in accordance with the general complaints about tunneling and camping?

  • Th3Nightmare
    Th3Nightmare Member Posts: 1,266
    edited February 2023

    This game works as follows (Edit: I am a main killer with 6200 hrs)

    As a killer you start the game, look for a survivor and start a chase, if that survivor is bad you will catch him on average in 20-45 seconds depending on how strong the map is and ur killer ofc, if he is a good survivor and knows how to play, it will cost you a little more, probably about 50 seconds approx, so 3 survivors should be doing gens, as a general rule if in your PERKS you don't have the corrupt INTERVENTION perk, forget about 2 gens at the beginning of the game, that's all I can I mean, on the other hand, even if it seems unfair, if you want to look for hooks, you should go for the bad survivors, although... good players are not going to sit idly by, so good luck.

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,534

    obviously with MM it’s hard to get an average but most games involve 1 getting tunnelled out so 3 hooks and then getting 2-4 extra hooks until all gens are done

  • wydyadoit
    wydyadoit Member Posts: 1,145

    Well… that’s a terrible build for one.

    noed is worthless if the gates are open. Blood warden is worthless if you can’t hook a survivor between the gates opening and the people running out. I have no clue what headlock is. If you mean deadlock then that’s a terrible perk on its own. And superior anatomy is worthless because you’re still giving up your chase advantage by using it unless you stack it with more vaulting speed - which you’ll never be able to vault pallets and you’re already defeating the purpose of the perk by opening walls.

  • burt0r
    burt0r Member Posts: 4,163
    edited February 2023

    I guess you didn't get my point. When survivor want tunneling and camping to be made impossible then an average of 5-7 hooks doesn't cut it anymore.

    Either we argue with the abolishment of those tactics in mind all the time or never.

  • JoeyDonuts
    JoeyDonuts Member Posts: 106

    Everyone focuses on "I lost gens before a down." Usually the fastest gens are on the outside of the edge of the map when a survivor spawns right on top of it. Losing a fast outlier gen shrinks the map, which will work in your favor.

  • H2H
    H2H Member Posts: 772

    I fee like I have way, way more control as solo survivor. Not perfect control (that wouldn’t be a game at that point) but yeah, more than as killer.

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,438

    Hard to say without a VOD to review. The forum really needs a coaching section for posts like these.

    Just in terms of your build: Blood Warden is a gimmick perk that rarely works against even semi-experienced players.

    Superior Anatomy is bad because you should be running tiles in such a way that survivors can't get fast vaults most of the time. You're going to teach yourself some awful habits trying to get value out of SA. Bamboozle is the better vault perk, but again, you need to be intelligent about how you're using it, and neither perk is a replacement for correct killer pathing.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,881

    Thank god someone understands.

    I don't know where the mentality comes from, but somehow people act like the killer lost the game if it's a 4k, but 3 gens got done.

  • ratcoffee
    ratcoffee Member Posts: 1,569

    OP, you're running a perk that only activates in the endgame and a perk that only activates when the gate is open. it's expected for you to lose a bunch of gens quickly and not perform as well in the beginning of the game, half of your build is tailored to endgame.

    comparing progress on generators with 5 gen completions being the end win condition, to hooks on survivors with 12 hooks being the win condition is bad math and bad game sense in a whole lot of ways

    -as survivors complete gens, there are less gens to do, meaning the killer has a smaller area to patrol and safeguard

    -even once survivors get all the gens done, they still need to open the exit gate and then run out of it. particularly since OP is running 2 endgame perks, it feels silly to miss this fact.

    -the killer doesn't need to get 12 individual hooks; they can get a 4k with 1 hook at end game and blood warden.

    -when killers get hooks, that forces survivors to stop doing gens to go for a rescue, slowing down the progression of the survivor objective

    i had a game not too long ago where i had 2 hooks with 1 gen left using an off-meta build and still managed to 4k without camping or tunneling (first sacrifice was at like 7-8 hooks) because there was a 3 gen in a dead zone; so no safety while working on gens. when i got Evil Incarnate, i gave up 3 gens before getting a single down, but i managed to get all 4 survivors with the mori before any more gens popped (without getting a single hook). if it's BS that survivors can get 3 gens done during one chase, it's also BS i was able to get 80% of my objective done while the survivors struggled to get their last 20%; that i was able to create such a swing after the survivors had completed a full half of their objective (or, we could admit that raw gen percentage vs raw hook state count is a bad metric. also tombstone is a bit broken)

  • rooCraah
    rooCraah Member Posts: 138

    Maybe it's just a skill issue. Maybe it's a build issue. Maybe you're doing just fine and have been conditioned by streamers with thousands of hours to think that you're not good enough if you can't get a 4k every match.

    Given you're running Blood Warden, gonna give a pro tip. Others have said you should probably stop using the perk, and yeah maybe it's hurting your kills, but I also like using the perk because it's fun, and fun matters more than winning. But instead of running NOED, I really recommend trying Terminus. It has a similar effect, particularly if survivors did the last generator while injured, it counters Adrenaline the same as NOED, and while it overall isn't as good at its job as NOED, its greatest selling point is forcing survivors to open the exit gates instead of 99%ing them, and that's absolutely what you want as a Blood Warden enjoyer.

    Best part is, since you play Wesker, nobody assumes you're running Terminus/Blood Warden. People are more likely to think you're running Terminus just because it's a Wesker perk and you haven't unlocked all the other perks yet, or maybe you're going for Adept.

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,985

    The funnest games for me were the closest, like where the last surv was downed with only one gen left. If this was accomplished without a hard tunnel I bet the survs enjoyed their game as well.

  • Anti051
    Anti051 Member Posts: 686



    At the start of the match everything is in favor of survivors.

    Yes.

    all pallets are available, everybody is able to hop on gens while the killer spawned on the other side of the map, there are 7 different gens they can contest, etc...

    Yes.

    The longer a match goes however the more the favor starts to shift towards the killer.

    Only if the killer still has a defensible gen setup.

    Survivors need to be picked up/unhooked, less generators become available meaning less for the killer to defend, pallets are broken creating dead zones, survivors need to heal or risk a snowball, etc...

    Less to defend, again, only if the remaining gen setup is actually defensible. Yes, enough pallets can be broken to create dead zones, but only if gens aren't done too soon for it to matter. Healing isn't that risky, it can be fast without a dedicated build.

    That first 60% of generators may go fast but once the killer gets their pressure ball rolling and the game shifts to their favor then the last 2 gens go a whole lot slower

    Again, only if the remaining gen setup is actually defensible. You could have 2 gens on either side of the map in which case you are screwed over unless you possess mobility.

    There is also the flaw in that comparison that survivors need to do 100% of their objective if they want more than one person to leave through the gates, while killers can secure a win way before they have done all their objectives.

    If the killer spreads his hooks between 2 survivors then by hook 6 only 2 are left. And in the majority of the cases those 2 don't stand a chance to finish the gens

    The killer has practically already won despite only 50% of their objectives being done.

    Just like survivors virtually already win if the last 3 gens are split up? Or again, if it's a killer with no mobility and 2 gens are on either side of the map? Not to say that it doesn't happen, because it does sometimes, but killers cannot reliably spread hooks betwixt just two particular survivors every match, only by happenstance.

    You can't really put the 2 objectives side by side like that. Asymmetric games don't work that way.

    My friend, in the specific case of DbD, it seems I very much can line them up and still be in the right. A game like 'Depth' on the other hand, you'd be correct.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,522

    That just unfortunately what happens when you play agains't good survivors. Tunneling is only way to win or even get one kill if you play weaker killers.

  • Anti051
    Anti051 Member Posts: 686

    comparing progress on generators with 5 gen completions being the end win condition, to hooks on survivors with 12 hooks being the win condition is bad math and bad game sense in a whole lot of ways

    -as survivors complete gens, there are less gens to do, meaning the killer has a smaller area to patrol and safeguard

    Only if the killer still has a defensible gen setup.

    -even once survivors get all the gens done, they still need to open the exit gate and then run out of it. particularly since OP is running 2 endgame perks, it feels silly to miss this fact.

    Right, one endgame perk that is always played around and barely works out and another that might get one exposed down before it's cleansed. The only silly thing here is missing how the OP said that what they were doing was not working out for them.

    -the killer doesn't need to get 12 individual hooks; they can get a 4k with 1 hook at end game and blood warden.

    That's right, they can.....and barely ever do.

    -when killers get hooks, that forces survivors to stop doing gens to go for a rescue, slowing down the progression of the survivor objective

    Or they pop 3 gens, wait for you to leave your one hook, use reassurance, then continue cranking on less than 2 gens left with most pallets still up, or worse, they could also save bnp's for the last 2 gens.

    i had a game not too long ago where i had 2 hooks with 1 gen left using an off-meta build and still managed to 4k without camping or tunneling (first sacrifice was at like 7-8 hooks) because there was a 3 gen in a dead zone; so no safety while working on gens. when i got Evil Incarnate, i gave up 3 gens before getting a single down, but i managed to get all 4 survivors with the mori before any more gens popped (without getting a single hook). if it's BS that survivors can get 3 gens done during one chase, it's also BS i was able to get 80% of my objective done while the survivors struggled to get their last 20%; that i was able to create such a swing after the survivors had completed a full half of their objective (or, we could admit that raw gen percentage vs raw hook state count is a bad metric. also tombstone is a bit broken)

    Exactly, the only reason you could affect change against that group and stop them is because you were fortunate enough to be left with a defensible gen setup for the killer you played (Myers). Had you not had that very defensible 3-gen (and the op addon), I'm not sure things would have turned out the way they did.

  • Zeidoktor
    Zeidoktor Member Posts: 2,065
    edited February 2023

    Depending on how fast you're getting your first down maybe swap out something with Corrupt Intervention. It'll slow down the early gen completion down while you work on your first chases/downs. If you reach a point where you can get your first downs quick you can probably swap to Lethal Pursuer.

    One early game tip that has served me well: Survivors never spawn within a 3-tile radius of you. Combine this with some map knowledge, maybe utilize Lethal or Corrupt to quickly identify locations outside of that radius, and it's possible to find someone very quickly depending on the map.

    Depending on how many hooks you're getting mid-game, No Way Out can also work as an alternative.

  • jinx3d
    jinx3d Member Posts: 519

    that should not be normal. Killer should just be expected to be losing from the start, but if killers are ahead on their objective, survivors give up.

  • ratcoffee
    ratcoffee Member Posts: 1,569
    edited February 2023

    i do thoroughly enjoy how most of your counterarguments rely on either pretending that a defendable gen setup is something that accidentally happens instead of being consciously played into by the killer, and assuming the killer has no capacity to adapt their game plan to the builds they and the survivors bring, or to the survivor's playstyle. anything that happens in the killer's game is just luck, there's no conscious choice to continue committing to, for example, keep chasing a survivor in an area with a good 3 gen setup so you can make that dead zone and make the eventual 3 gen unwinnable for survivors; there's no ability to consciously choose to go on a couple losing chases that will nevertheless grant you a massive power spike later in the match; you can't look at your build and analyze why it isn't working out, even. DBD is apparently just a series of uncontrollable events that happens to the killer, not a game that the killer has any level of participation or choice in.

    edit:

    this is also a great example of what i'm talking about. often you don't need to even worry about gens. i was able to get 5 bloodwarden kills across 2 games while intentionally "playing nice" (avoiding hooking the same survivor consecutively even if i accidentally found them healing) simply by prioritizing "get 2 hooks on everyone and make sure you're in chase when the last gen pops." am i saying i never get juiced and there are never games where i feel outplayed on every front? of course not. is it a tough process to learn how to keep up with stronger survivors while playing killer? absolutely. but pretending those don't exist or are out of your control as a killer player is a defeatist attitude

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    See I don't think you are in the right though. If the ratio really was 8.3% for killers to 60% for survivors then killers wouldn't be able to win ever

    And they do, there are 100s of streamers to prove that

    I keep seeing you refer to "defensible gen setup" and i think thats the problem you are facing. You're focussing to much on gens

    One of the best advices i got recently was to forget about the gens. It's not the gens that are the problem but the survivors fixing them.

    Focus on keeping them busy rather then focussing on defending an area when you are outnumbered

    If you down a survivor and see another one near, slug him and chase the other one. The slug can't work on gens, the one you are chasing can't work on gens and somebody who was working on gens has to stop to get the slug up. Two downs is better then one hook

    Very often the first person i down is not the first person i hook, and very rarely do i actually lose 3 gens before my first hook that way

    When chasing a survivor and you know on which gen the others are working try to zone the chase towards them. They either have to stop working on it or risk you peeling of to them.

    Things like that.

    I recently started playing Legion without perks and really focussing on chasing and keeping survivors busy and i've been doing way better then i was with full gen slowdown perks. To the point i thought perks were tied to mmr

  • RainehDaze
    RainehDaze Member Posts: 2,573

    Thing is, that's not really sound when we consider what the balance goal is: a kill rate a bit over 50%.

    On average, all gens should complete or be nearly complete, then.

    But on average, if we also don't want a game dominated by tunnelling and facecamping, that should actually be a spread of like, 8+ hooks. 5-7 hooks would be a 0k, and obviously--no matter how snowbally the game--an average state of 'everybody gets out or it's a 4k' isn't the desired goal.

    2-3 gens going first chase can, on the right map with the right gens, make it indefensible from the get go. And if you drop it to pressure those gens with the wrong Killer, that's 0 hooks before gens start popping, right?

    But if we're trying to balance out a Killer's expected hooks, the gameplay we don't want every game, and how fast gens go, the game potentially being won after the first chase and games that regularly end after three hooks are both undesirable.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,522

    Killer is definetely harder and more stressful to play. Maybe easier on pc but on console survivor is clearly the easiest role. Only disadvantage is you can't 360s as fast but otherwise there is hardly difference compared to pc. That's why im survivor main. I mostly only play killer when the bonus is up as it makes killer bearable.

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,534

    It should be expected for both sides to get at least some of their objectives done every game. You have to remember that gens get harder to repair the less there are left

  • Piruluk
    Piruluk Member Posts: 995

    For me is more stressful if I dont have any control, and for SoloQ it is true, I have 0 control, sure it might be relaxing for some that, your skill and input barely matter, and always can blame teammates, because in the end its mostly luck.

    While killer requires skill and cant blame anyone else, everything on you. However you are rewarded with complete control how the game flows, you have several gameplay tactics available. You are in full control.

  • Carth
    Carth Member Posts: 1,182

    This was one of the most complained about things with killer prior to the 6.1.0 "buff" that lengethed gen times by 10 seconds, nuked most of the meta regression perks into the ground(ruin, pop, CI unless you're a setup killer), and gave killers fractions of seconds off of actions that amount to deltas of sub 5 meter chase impacts. The buffs to regression perks that were given have mostly been made even worse than their pre-6.1.0 state(thana is worse than before, eruption is worse than before, overcharge actually gives you worse than .25 regression until 13 seconds in). Both ends of the spectrums are way too swingy/snowbally. Having 4 survivors alive at 3 gens left with 1-3 hooks is basically a death sentence, in a similar vein killing a survivor at 4-5 gens is basically a death sentence for the survivor team. I think in an ideal world, both situations should have the impacts lessened.

    If you are trapper and 3 gens pop before you get your first hook or as you get your first hook, you are going to have an awful game, even if you win it is going to be extremely stressful and probably involve hard camping a 3 gen which even though people in this thread are saying it's a tactic that enables you to win, it is probably one of the most complained about things outside of camping and tunneling, "why can a killer sit in a 3 gen and auto-win or delay the game by x minutes".

  • Anti051
    Anti051 Member Posts: 686


    Well bud, I'm speaking from the POV of a Ghostface main, #4 in the world for exposed downs and #5 for marked downs (dbd.tricky.lol) I have a lot of experience at this point, so I feel like I actually have got a pretty good idea about what's up when I start talking about this weird game.

    And yeah,

    3 out of 5 is, in fact 60% and no, it doesn't really slowdown very much after that point (especially if they save items for the last 2 gens)

    1 out of 12 is, in fact 8.3% and the survivors can/will finish well before you can hook anybody to death.

    And at my apparent MMR level, 4-5 minute games are an unfortunate reality.

    You're lucky if you can get 3 hooks before everything is over.

    You are not going to create an effective dead zone in time, it's over too fast.

    You are not going to stop the progression unless there is a tight 3-gen or you can achieve lucky, strategic slugs with knockout and melt gens in the meantime with COB/Overcharge.

    If you commit to chases, you typically lose unless the survivor catches their big toe on a corner or dedicated servers decide to express themselves.

    You'll mindgame into dead hard all the time because you can only hold W and M1 and the survivor will be too far to wait it out before the pallet drop. A single instance of this can create enough time for you to lose.

    I stopped using eruption over a month and a half ago because the trigger kept getting countered by 'dead hard @ pallet' and it would lose the game for me.

    Unless the system can't find suitable people for me and I get stuck with lower level folks, the string of events in a typical match is a short list indeed before everybody is slugged or all gens are gone.

    Most of my matches are either very frustrating to lose (because of the gen speed/DH nullifying any mindgame), or very exhausting when I win (stalking to expose and chaining slugs as fast as possible with 'GF caught on tape' + Knockout mostly)...frankly it's very binary, there is barely any contest in either case, the fun is minimal and it doesn't feel like any horror movie I've seen.

    But my friend, I swear upon our immortal souls, it is not cap when I say

    novice - intermediate: speed is fine

    expert - master: speed is bogus

    ( ^ also feel free to substitute "speed" with "deadhard.")

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,671

    This is why we're seeing a large increase in tunneling the first guy out asap.

  • jinx3d
    jinx3d Member Posts: 519

    it shouldnt be expected. sometimes killers have games with no hooks, and survivors have games with no gens. One side can ragequit without a dc penalty in a fraction of the time

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    Ouch, yeah being a ghostface main i can understand your points more clearly.

    Imo that's more Ghostface desperatly needing some love then a overal game problem but fair.

    Legion also is just a m1 killer but atleast they can say no to dead hard a lot of the time

  • MrPeanutbutter
    MrPeanutbutter Member Posts: 1,586

    Meanwhile, people who are too cowardly to play killer will tell you to “git gud” and that you can easily win with no camping, no tunneling, and equally hooking every survivor in perfect rotation.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,522

    You have 3 hooks already and still 3 gens left that is far from death sentence... That can mean 1 survivor on death hook and other one hooked once so just take that 1 survivor out if you need to. Death sentence is when you have 1 hook or none in that situation.

  • Anti051
    Anti051 Member Posts: 686

    What can I say, It's a mess

    You do get nightvision monocular, which can shut off deadhard mid-chase, but that's dependent upon the person you're chasing turning around and revealing you

    /shrugs

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,522

    Most killers do not have full control over match even playing dirty does not quarantee anything. In the end you need survivors to make mistakes to get control if survivors play perfectly it's game over. It's very hard to try control match the way that you can pip or in bad match safety pip if survivor slam gens like they're actual life debends on it.

    My survivor matches are lot more chill. It's lot easier to quarantee safety pip and that does not even matter as I play that side more so I get my pips eventually and can even get them while losing. I run prove thyself and coh to get me bp a lot usually. Well if killer decides to tunnel me then I just loop him as long as possible. Usually they give up or chase me all 5 gens. Ramdoms yeah sometimes throw the game and you can't control them but at least you know you did everything you could.

  • Carth
    Carth Member Posts: 1,182

    And be accused of tunneling since you just killed a survivor on hook #4?

  • Orochi
    Orochi Member Posts: 183

    Please don't listen to these doomsayers that act like tunneling and camping are your only ways to win. I see so many Killers try to go straight to tunneling/camping right from the start...and what happens more often than not is that the Survivor team gets one good rescue mission and the strategy just flops entirely because the Killer still can't win chases consistently. So when what they were told was the best strategy to win fails, get even more confused and just blame the game instead of themselves.

    Just practice your mind games and your abilities to get downs and you will get better over time. Test out new builds. Don't be afraid to camp or tunnel when need-be but try not to rely on that as your only strategy or you will never really improve. You will just be padding your win rate which will land you in higher MMR and match you with players you just aren't actually ready for, making it even harder to learn. It's okay to lose sometimes.

  • DyingWish92
    DyingWish92 Member Posts: 793

    I know who you are. I watch your stream. I hope the game gets balanced better, I enjoy watching you play killer.

  • cinge
    cinge Member Posts: 6

    1.keep playing and you ll find out how to play better, being mad wont help thats for sure you need to be calm while playing

    2.stop relying on the other side to make mistakes because that doesnt means you did something good or you getting better

    3.try playing survivor for some time so you can understand what to do with a killer better

    4.tunnel/camp sometimes is the optimal play but sitting near a hook afk wont make you better at chases you better let it loose and just chase and interact with survivors, you ll learn faster and personally i find it more fun

    5.stop using perks other people say are good, find something that fitts in your gameplay and you have a good time using and go with it, because if the perk doesnt fit your gamestyle its as good as a burden

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    If you let your opponents tell you how to play then it should be no surprise if you end up losing