Kill Dead Hard already!
It took 6 years for this perk to finally get a nerf with the big meta shake up in patch 6.1.0. That patch pushed Ruin and Pop out of the meta as well as some other perks. BHVR nuked Ruin and Pop so hard they're arguable pretty weak right now. Yes, you can get value out of them but both are too weak to even be worth a perk slot when there are so many better alternatives, which is why killers use different perks. Not to mention you don't need to heavily adjust your gameplay to these perks.
Why does DH get a pass? It's been in the meta for 6 years. We got a rework and now the completely uncounterable DH for distance is gone. Only this didn't remove the perk from the meta at all. At first we saw countless arguments about how useless DH was, however now it's back in every game on multiple survivors. The game is still Dead by Dead Hard. The perk defines the killer experience. You (as an experienced player) will not go into a game and not play around DH.
Killers became CONDITIONED to play around a perk that they don't even know is in the game yet. You cannot tell me that this is a good design. We see countless complaints about it because the one thing that really needed to change was having to wait every single time before being allowed to hit. It is disgusting, boring, not skilled in the slightest and very tiring after a while.
By the way, Eruption had the exact same counterplay. "JuST WAiT iT OUt" and it is (will change soon) pretty much the most hated perk on the survivors' side. Also, if waiting wasn't a big deal why would 25 seconds of Incapacitated be a problem, then? It is boring, non-interactive and wastes time that you don't have. Just like DH.
It doesn't even matter, if DH is strong or not. What actually matters is that killers will always have to counter it because if they don't, they will need 3 hits per chase, which is obviously something that 90% of the killer roster simply can't handle. Mind you BHVR stated they balance around 45 seconds chases. A survivor with 3 health states will easily exceed those 45 seconds.
It is especially punishing for newer players as well. How do you explain to a new player, that they will always need to wait for the survivor to use it before being allowed to swing? I was in that situation before. A friend of mine, who at the time was fairly new DBD played one of his first games as killer. 3 survivors had DH. I could see that these people weren't a professional comp squad and I probably would wipe the floor with them but my friend, who was happy to get a hit after 40s of chase also had to account for DH. Of course he failed to do that. He would have lost the game anyway but going out of it with only 2 hooks because three survivors would simply waste extra time by pressing "E" adds insult to injury.
Isn't this the whole reason why some things don't get the buffs they desperately need to compete with good players? Because then newer players would have a horrible time going against them? It's not only a matter of balancing, it's a matter of quality of life at this point. This has gone on long enough. It's time to put an end to this misery.
To the people, who argue that DH isn't even that good and that the killer will simply wait it out every time; Why is DH still in every game, then? If you can't get value out of it, then just use a different perk already! Nerfing the perk to obscurity wouldn't affect you anyway and it might be the only chance for this meta to ever truly change. Don't just nerf it. Nuke it! Let it burn in hell!
It is unhealthy for the reasons I listed above and it shouldn't go on any longer.
Comments
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Deadhard is a hail mary, if you are losing because of dh you are a weak killer. DH works as intended maybe 30% of the time? Maybe less. That means well over half the time when you play against someone using DH you get a free down and hook. In my most recent game I went down 3 times in the same game using DH. First time I used it and timed it correctly, it never activated. Next time I used it one second early, it never activated. Next time I thought, "Ahah, I will use it a second and a half early," it activated immediately. One game, three different random timings for dh, it is impossible to use in a consistent manner within a single game, let alone from one match to the next.
Everyone who complains about DH is actually saying they are getting by on bad hits and lag.
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I agree, everyone is using it. I see it in EVERY GAME. The Perk Rework was supposed to reduce its prevalence, but it has not done that to my recollection. I'd like bHVR to share numbers on the usage rate, if it really is such a success then they could show it.
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If it works 30% of the time only, then it's still a badly designed perk. A perk that you use should work 100% of the time (not saying it should give you the value but it should work as intended). As I said, this whole argument doesn't affect you in the slightest. You get no value out of DH anyway, so why would you care if it gets completely demolished? Just bring a different perk and we're all happy.
With this "hail mary", as you call it, out of the way we could finally look at the actual issues this game has because then the killrates would not be depending on how well you can pull off the DH.
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because it's fun when it does work. (at least i gather, i never run it but i sympathize with people who like it)
not sure how taking the skill expression out of the game would fix it?
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While I do agree that Dead Hard could use another few small nerfs to curb its problematic elements, like forcing a hit into it at pallets and in a more general sense just to lower its pickrate, I have never understood the argument about how killers have become conditioned to respect it before it's even in play, because... if you don't like respecting it before you've seen it, just don't?
You don't have to wait. You can just swing on your first chase and see if they use Dead Hard, you're not gonna lose the match on the back of that unless you're already doing absolutely terribly and the first chase has lasted like four generators. Even if you do choose to wait and see (or more accurately, choose to bait and see), how is that different to survivors letting go of a generator as a hook happens to check for Pain Res? It's a slight loss in efficiency to check what your opponent is bringing, and to deny them the full value if they do have it.
If it's not bad design there, I don't think it's inherently bad design here, either. The ability to respect it before you see it is clearly fine, and there isn't anything actually forcing you to do so. If you don't wanna respect it, don't; swing instantly on your first chase, and then if they use DH, great, you know now and can play around it. If they don't, you've got a down, no harm no foul.
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Killers don't have to wait out DH. Absolutely. You know what else killers don't need to do? Mind game in loops, use their powers and bring perks and addons. Killers can just go into a match ready to lose. That's the issue with DH again. If you don't wait it out and swing, the survivor will use it and here you go giving them a third health state, which will make you lose the game if it happens frequently. If you do wait however and complain because it sucks (which, let's be honest, it does) you get told not to wait it out.
Your argument basically is: "A third health state doesn't matter anyway unless you're losing already." I'm sorry but again, BHVR want chases to go an average of 45 seconds. Assuming MMR works somewhat correctly the killer should not easily get a hit on you in 15 seconds and if they do that tells me everything I need to know. That the killer plays much better than you. Even I can do better than that and I'm far from being a good survivor. Most killers would be more than happy to get a hit every 40 seconds. Now let them all need 3 hits for every chase and see how that goes. Especially since you typically lose 2 gens for your first chase anyway, considering that you first need to make your way across the map and find a survivor before chasing them on a map that still has all its resources and after that pick them up, walk to the nearest hook and go through the hook animation. For the killer, the game typically begins a full minute after the survivors' (with very few exceptions). Having a perk that will cost them even more time is not helping.
See the problem here? The killer is basically being told to make the game harder on themself, which really only replaces one issue with another. Sure, I can simply lose every game just by eating every DH until I play against survivors that barely know what their objective is but when exactly am I allowed to have fun? Because this isn't fun.
Simply nerfing DH does not remove the issue. That's why I really want to see it nuked. That and to see the meta truly change, obviously.
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That's a false equivalence and you know it, come on now.
There's a giant chasm of difference between "you don't have to bait out DH in the first chase every time if you don't want to" and "don't use your power". I never said you should eat every DH, I said that you don't have to play ultra safe respecting DH before you've even seen it. If you swing and they do have it, obviously at that point you start playing around it, but the argument is about needing to respect it before you've actually determined if it's in play, and you do not have to do that. It isn't intentionally setting yourself up to lose and it's barely even playing worse, it's a question of how safe you want to play.
Dead Hard isn't a guaranteed third health state, and that's the entire point of the perk. It's a potential third health state that should, in theory, only actually work if the skill expression breaks in the survivor's favour and they time it correctly. Removing the awful pallet play would already go leaps and bounds above where we are in making that statement actually true, and there are a number of other small tweaks it could get to bring it more in line with that vision + lower its pickrate as its versatility diminishes. If not, fair enough, rework it entirely- but there's only one reason to ever nuke a perk, and it doesn't apply here.
Side note, we already had the meta shift. Still seeing one or two perks doesn't invalidate that.
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Why do people keep assuming every killer wants to swing as their attack? Some killers want to use their power, but their power is so telegraphed that survivors can dead hard it on reaction. With some killers, we are being told we should just completely stop using our power, and walk into point blank range so we can quick M1, but wait, because we're also told not to swing in point blank range because we're supposed to step back so we don't get 360'ed. So we're supposed to simultaneously be in point blank range, but also step back so we're not in point blank range.
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The only killer off the top of my head who can't do anything about Dead Hard in a mechanical, bait-it-out way would be... Huntress, right?
And sure, maybe there's something to be said about a killer needing to dedicate parts of their loadout to it if they want to respond to Dead Hard, but it's not as though it's a widespread problem. Every other killer can either bait it, get the follow up hit super quickly, or is struggling for unrelated reasons- like Twins.
This is also why I've come to support giving Dead Hard less of a speed boost, too. That change would both bring it in line as the aggressive, stay-in-chase perk, and prevent it from being as damaging if a long-range killer like Huntress gets an attack blocked by it.
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My point still stands though. Don't wait it out - Get Dead Harded, fool. Now, have fun catching up to me and fighting for the hit all over again. Wait it out - Get screwed anyway. If you don't wait, you give that survivor an easy DH. Period. You're assuming that there aren't that many people who run DH anyway. When it's multiple DHs in every game. If your lobbies aren't like this, I'm 100% happy for you. But most of us see way too many DHs to risk it. If you can't get at least another 15 seconds (3x15 seconds=45 seconds on gens) out of a successful DH, then that is a skill issue that. The first down needs to happen as soon as possible or the killer will not be able to slow the game. A bad early game for the killer typically means a bad game overall for the killer. You can't win against 3 people on gens and one in chase. Pretty sure I don't need to do the maths for you on this one because that should be obvious. The only option to win as killer is to slow down the survivors so that you can actually progress at a much faster pace (making up for the time you lost earlier) than the survivors do. If that happens too late it doesn't matter anymore (besides DH could still get the survivors out of a pickle in mid and end game) because the damage is already done.
Sure. It's only Huntress. Let's completely ignore there are killers like, I don't know.... Trickster, Twins, Demogorgon, Wraith, Hillbilly (yes, many people actually stay injured so they don't go down in 1 hit), Myers (same issue with T3 lunge), Nurse, Blight, Knight, Hag, Spirit (many people do hit their DHs perfectly against a phasing Spirit), Pig, Oni, Pyramid Head, Nemesis, Artist and Wesker.
Apart from all the M1 killers that are screwed anyway because lunging is a no-go and waiting is also a no-go. Also have you counted how many perk slots each side has? 4 << 16 I'm pretty sure about that. If you need the exact mathematical proof I could probably provide you with that as well. Dedicating one perk to POTENTIALLY counter DH means you have only 3 perks left against the survivors' 12 (assuming everyone has DH or a different exhaustion perk). This also assumes they can't use their exhaustion perks at all, which, let's be real, never happens.
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...Wait, why are you screwed if you wait it out? If you wait it out, then it doesn't do anything. There's no way you can get screwed by waiting it out unless they're at a pallet, and that's the area I agree it needs a nerf.
I'm not gonna go through that list and point out all the tricks and tools some of those killers have at their disposal, but rest assured they aren't all entirely screwed no matter what. Most of them would be equally screwed facing most of the other Exhaustion perks too, and that's why a lot of them have Exhaustion addons and access to at LEAST one anti-Exhaustion perk. If you're struggling with Exhaustion perks, and it's not a guaranteed lose/lose like DH at a pallet, there are tools for dealing with that.
That's not to say Dead Hard doesn't need any changes at all, of course. On top of the pallet interaction, I also personally feel you should get a severely diminished speed boost from a successful use of Dead Hard, so that it's most useful for staying in a loop and taking more risks rather than holding W and speeding away. That'd help most of the killers that can't avoid hitting into DH immensely too, even the ones that don't struggle as much as-is.
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Eruption working as intended is fun for the killer. Eruption gets nuked. Dead Hard doesn't.
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If you wait it out, the survivor you're chasing will hold off on the DH as well. That is until they spin a few times and then they either:
- reach a pallet to DH there (which we both agree shouldn't work in the way it does)
- get out the DH the moment you hit
- don't get the DH and you still waste extra time just because of DH's existence
Besides, then we're back at square one and everything I said in the opening post still holds. I don't want to be put in a situation where I either have to accept they'll just DH my lunge or my power or wait it out. "Waiting it out" is not the experience that any game should provide. This should not be a thing.
The difference between waiting out DH and waiting out Pain Res is: What happens, if you don't wait it out? Then DH = 3rd health state and Pain Res = you scream and that's it. I'm assuming you're talking about the whole Pain Res + DMS combo though. In that case the difference is that you can actually react to it. You see the aura of the survivor getting hooked before the Pain Res procs and with the next patch this will be even easier because the hooked survivor will scream sooner than Pain Res activates as well.
Of course, you can always miss your power just so that the DH will not go off but how is that acceptable counterplay? Mess up, so you don't give your opponent an even bigger advantage? It's not hard to react to most of these powers (respect, if you can pull it off against Spirit though, that's seriously cracked). You have more than enough time. If it was that difficult, we wouldn't see so many successful DHs against killer powers. Most powers give you a sound clue that you can use to time it. Faking your power works on the same people that would fail their DH anyway against a lunge or killer looking up and therefore these people shouldn't be unhappy with DH getting butchered. Simply switch to a perk you get value from for crying out loud.
The thing about other exhaustion perks though is, nobody is as triggered by them. Lithe doesn't come at the end of the chase and chances are, if it does the killer is doing really well in that chase. On top of that how many times have you seen survivors getting while activating Lithe. It happens fairly often, which again softens the blow. SP as well and it requires way more skill and thinking than DH does. Overcome isn't exactly nice to face (mainly because it promotes Shift + W gaming but that's an issue we'd need another discussion for) but it's far better than DH. Balanced Landing only works, if the survivor can make it to a part of the map where they can activate it. The other exhaustion perks I hardly need to make an argument about. Only DH is this giant middle finger that rewards a survivor that got outplayed by the killer by even getting into position to hit them in the first place.
Remember when everyone hated on NOED because it was "rewarding the killer for losing". How is DH any different from that? You screw up and have a crutch to get you out of this position. Great. The only reason the complaints about NOED stopped is because it was nerfed considerably and because of that isn't used as often anymore. DH on the other hand? Some people will never let this perk go as long as it isn't complete trash. The one perk that stood as the pinnacle of DBD's meta for 6 years with the highest usage rate by far, creating more controvery than anything else in this game, and that even made some players quit the game (look back at the survivor queue times right after the latency change) was not pushed off the throne and worse yet has the same horrible "counterplay" it had before, while getting even stronger in some situations.
All I want to see is this perk nuked. We tried nerfing it. Didn't work too well. Time for some more drastic measures.
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Okay, I wasn't sure up until this point if you meant literally waiting it out, or you were being hyperbolic in referring to baiting it out. Neither's bad, I just wasn't sure which one it is, until now.
So: You don't just stand there and wait. You flick your camera upwards if that's all you have, or you fake your power animation if that'd work- Wraith is the best for this, but there's a number of other killers that can do some kind of animation in addition to the camera trick that'd bait out Dead Hard from twitchy survivors, and that show non-twitchy survivors you'll try and bait it out- which means you can then hit them earlier to take them by surprise.
That's why I don't really like the idea of even reworking Dead Hard, let alone nuking it. There's actual interaction in the way this perk functions after its rework in 6.1.0, and I don't like the idea of taking away depth from the game like that. If DH is being used outside of the scenarios where it's actually a problem, the ones we both agree on like the pallet game, there's actually some back and forth in the way both parties engage with the perk. The only other Exhaustion perk that's true of is Head On, and that perk is basically just a meme.
I do remember people complaining about NOED. They were wrong then about it rewarding bad killers for losing, so it's not super relevant to this discussion.
We tried nerfing it. It worked out super well and downgraded the perk from "blatantly overpowered monstrosity" to "strong in general and really annoying in some scenarios". I'd like to see that trajectory pushed forward so the perk can actually be considered "pretty healthy overall".
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and i think the eruption nerf is overkill and they should bring it back to the on-release numbers
turns out "but what about x" isn't a good argument
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If I didn't make myself clear before, I apologize for the confusion. I meant waiting for the DH to come (hyperbolically baiting it out) not waiting until you see the survivor use it as that doesn't work all that great either. Many people don't fall for that and simply wait with the DH themselves. Going for the hit immediately is risky against survivors that don't wait and useless against survivors that can literally react to your attack.
You pointed out Wraith, who to be fair would catch a majority of survivors off guard, however he does give the survivor a very audible sound clue first when he fully uncloaks and again when he swings his weapon. You can use this sound to time the DH. Looking up and down doesn't cause a sound, so you only catch people that as you said are "twitchy". These aren't the problem. They don't get value out of DH because the killer gets it out of the way first. Again, these people shouldn't be too unhappy with DH getting stomped or reworked to do something entirely different because they don't really lose anything.
The reason why baiting out the DH doesn't work that well is because there is an audible indicator for most killers for when they actually attack. Billy will roar, Huntress and Wesker will grunt etc. For the killers that don't have the audible clue it's still easy to see when the actual attack animation begins for example Demogorgon. You can make an argument that the survivor did something skilled and should be rewarded for it and you wouldn't be necessarily wrong. However, if someone can guarantee themself a third health state every chase this becomes a problem because most killers don't have the time to deal with that. And that is disregarding the fact that the killer did something skilled as well to even get into the position where they can hit the survivor. The perk DH by nature just isn't healthy. I get that it's fun to use but a third health state per chase is impossible to balance. Some people will fail at using it and only be a annoying because they force the killer to wait when the chase should actually be over. Others guarantee a successful DH. For which one do you want to balance? Option is what we have now. Hoping that survivors aren't that good with it and will mostly fail so the killer only loses a few extra seconds baiting it out. A killer stacked with full regression perks can probably deal with it for the most part. But otherwise this still puts the killer behind schedule and we're currently seeing how well that goes. Option 2 is balancing for 3 health states per chase. This isn't something I'd like to see either because then running and hitting DH becomes mandatory.
The point about NOED is, that it got nerfed considerably to where people don't use it anymore (seriously, I haven't seen a single NOED in months). And I'm not unhappy about that. They solved the major issues this perk had:
- 1) The community hated it.
- 2) The perk was overused.
Both of these are true for current DH as well. That's why something needs to be done (besides the balancing issues I pointed out earlier).
I mentioned it above but I'll repeat: DH can never be healthy a perk by nature as long as they don't completely change its very core. That is extending the chase when it should be over or forcing the killer to run after the survivor like an idiot and hope they'll mess up, which is still horrible because of how boring and stupid that feels.
Which brings me to the next argument: "Hoping the other side messes up is not actual counterplay." We had the same issue with Nurse and had to explain over and over again why breaking LoS against her was hardly sufficient to balance out her power at the time. Nurse got nerfed as well and I am not unhappy about that either.
The DH nerf was simply not enough and never will be unless they either kill the perk or reimagine it from the ground up. At least one issue will always remain. Wether it's the perk being unreliable, disgusting to face because of how you counter it or DH being too strong. These are all major flaws that no perk as prevalent as DH should ever have.
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Dead Hard is probably the only exhaustion perk that legitimately feels unfair to go against.
If I see a survivor boost away with Sprint Burst, Balanced, or Lithe I'm like "aight, that's fair." But swinging into a Dead Hard always feels like I got cheated out of a victory in a chase.
...not that I actually have too much trouble with the perk in general. The mind-games around baiting it out can be fun, but doing it like ten to twelve times a game makes me really hate going against Dead Hard.
There's actually nothing you can do to make Dead Hard more fair or balanced, short of complete redesign. The concept of "you can parry a hit / become invincible for half a second" in a game where you fighting tooth and nail for something as meager as half a meter of distance is simply too strong.
Honestly? Dead Hard should give your allies a speed boost when you take a protection hit. It fits thematically, and would still be a strong perk.
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I hadn't considered something like this before but I love the idea. Another anti-tunnel perk that would even be strong and probably hard to abuse because you throw yourself in harms way.
I support this.
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Eruption is more fair than dead hard
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Flicking your camera doesn't work on some survivors, because if you aren't in point blank range, then they are waiting for the audio cue that happens when you start a lunge attack.
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But DH gives killer more downs and hooks than the killer's own perks. DH needs fixed, but the current mindset at Behaviour is we want more killers, we want less survivors getting points or escaping. DH needs fixed, then we could actually see how it effects games.
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How do you figure? Extending the chase by pressing "E" puts the killer behind schedule, hindering them to get a down and slow the game so they can go for more chases. Meaning longer chase times = less time in game = less chases overall = less downs.
The only situation where I'd see DH ending chases quicker is when survivors get cocky because of their favorite exhaustion perk. This is also a situation that these people's teammates should be more than happy to see removed.
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I find it pretty fun how every main killer laughed at the DH rework, but now here we are.
I think people here are just considering the fact that "most used perks" are basically a 100% guarantee of winning so it needs to be killed - other exhaustion perks are not fun to play with and literally takes 0 skill to use them. What kind of skill takes to use SB? You literally need to run when you know the killer is coming to you so you get some distance - same goes for Lithe and BL.
The reason DH is so popular even if it does not work 100% of time, it is basically because it is a fun chase perk to use unlike other perks.
The example that Otz showed on Twitter is just when two experienced players' worlds collide - the experienced survivor knows you won't M1 right away cause you're an experienced killer, so sometimes the "wait it out" will happen. It is not even 100% effective, really. What kind of nerf people here want to DH? Why can't address toolboxes, BNP, hyperfocus, useless perks and so on?
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Speak for yourself. At the time I said I was happy about DH being looked at but I still felt (and openly said so) like it was the final boss of DBD, so killing it once would only reveal its true form. That is what we're seeing now. The true form of DH.
DH is only fun for the survivor. The killer that has to play around it every single game on most survivors doesn't have much fun dealing with it. Even when you pull off the most "skilled" DH play of all time it doesn't change the fact that this perk alone is the reason you can extend the chase in this way. After all you wouldn't DH, if the chase wasn't technically over. SB comes at the start of the chase or the survivor has to be completely insane to manage it mid chase and use perfectly. Balanced Landing is way more situational. Lithe can be forced out of the way and you can still hit a survivor during the vault, which makes the extra speed from Lithe much less valuable.
The argument that DH adds another layer of skill to the game is very weak. What the about the killer's skill? They outplayed the survivor before to even get into the position where the survivor has to use it. Now the survivor uses DH and all of a sudden that skill is meaningless. A perk that can be used in ways that have no counterplay whatsoever (DH on reaction), which isn't all that uncommon anymore, is not fun to go against and never will be. Neither is losing the game because you have to deal with 3x12 health states.
Otz's example is something that happens in nearly every game, mind you. The majority of killers is back to waiting and baiting out the DH in the hopes that the survivor can't DH on reaction, while survivors will spin and hope to bait out a hit. How is this acceptable counterplay? Both hope that their opponent messes up and that's it. Maybe if DH was only seen in the top 5% of MMR that'd be true but DH is everywhere. Even in low MMR.
The reason why so many people despise DH is simple. It's the perk that defines DBD. It has been the most used and strongest perk in the game for 6 years (with a short period of DH usage rate dropping to 3rd place). You might as well call the game Dead by Dead Hard because that's really what it is. As a killer, if you're power gives visual and audible clues to the survivor you shouldn't use it when they're injured or you're guaranteed to give them a third health state. That is one of the first things a new killer has to learn. Absolutely great.
Multiple things can be a problem at once, you know? BNPs, Hyperfocus etc. being problematic don't make DH any less horrible. Also with DH out of the way (something that heavily depends on the user) we might be able to better address other issues as well.
There is a suggestion in this post from @BenOfMilam that'd make DH a much more healthy perk while still keeping it strong and useful. I'd be fine with that as well. But one thing is for sure, DH should not stay the way it is.
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This is not true. There is no way to know when to hit dh or when it will activate based off of visual cues or animations, you get different results (if it works at all) every time. Even within a match the timing is different every time you use it. It is not dependable at all. Even when you time it right and get the points and the onscreen verification that it worked you go down about half the time.
I do not understand killer mains who complain. Killer is way easier than Survivor. I have a vision problem so first player perspective games make me motion sick. I have no perks and little experience with killer but the few times I've played as killer I get a 4k every time. Every time. Well one time I got a 2k and the other players quit.
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There actually is as long as you don't turn off your sound and your screen. For example: Huntress' and Wesker's grunts, Demogorgon's shred animation, Hillbilly's roar, Spirit's weapon manifastation sound, Blight's hit animation, Trickster's knive sounds...
I can go on. The only thing that influences the timing in an unpredictable way is latency. Most players have very stable connections so that that only changes around 0.01 - 0.02 seconds per match.
I repeat one of my opening arguments: A perk that you use should work as intended. If you can't time DH correctly, then don't use it and we're all happy. Any nerfs to DH would not affect you since you can't get value out of it anyway. Also note: How is a perk that even when used perfectly (as implied by the onscreen verification you mentioned) does not work as intended something you'd want to use and keep this way?
We had DH validation before and this literally made killers quit as implied by the survivor queue times at that time because you always got onscreen verification but didn't down the survivor. When that happens not once or twice, but in a majority of chases per game you can't blame the killer player to be fed up and leave. This is something that BHVR will most definitely not bring back. However the way you described it isn't ok either. A complete rework or players not using DH are the only ways out of this misery.
We've heard so many of these "Buhu, survivor is sooo hard but killer is always easy." nonsense comments before. If you're playing against potatoes any game will be easy. I even managed to 4k as no-blink Nurse without perks and I'm sorry but you basically can't lose against that because you're literally faster than the killer. I tried this douzens of times and eventually got matched with very unexperienced survivors that were on top of that trying to bully me. Play a few more rounds of killer, go against survivors that don't play with their feet and suddenly that all changes. Besides, if killers were too strong and DH was the only thing balancing that out, you should support this nerf all the more. Because then we could look at the actual kill rates, kill rates that aren't influenced by this god awful perk, and balance the game around that.
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Sorry hun. But dh is just fun to use. Its that high risk high reward playstyle that alot of ppl are attracted to. They can gut it even more but if there is a timed activation still attached to this perk, it will still be the most used perk. And its not consistent whatsoever as it entirely depends on the interaction of sirvivor and killer including ping which eruption is not. So there is a reason eruption is being touched as higher priority.
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It's fun for you. For the one using it, DH is fun. You know what else is fun? Completely annihilating your opponent. If we only care about how fun things are for one side, then we should remove every anti-tunnel and anti-camp perk as the killer has fun winning and these strategies make that much easier. Somehow I doubt the majority of survivor players would be happy about that.
I said I wanted this perk nuked, not nerfed. Meaning I want see DH gutted so hard that no one would risk running it anymore as it would be virtually impossible to get value out of it.
Another option, that I support 100% was suggested by @BenOfMilam in this thread. The idea is to make DH an anti-tunnel perk. That would make this perk useful, healthy and for the first time ever not a giant "F you!" that the killer has to endure in almost every chase.
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Ok, so because you suck with DH everyone else does too huh... DH is the biggest issue this game has and has been so for years. It is time.
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Dead Hard is a zero risk perk. In order for dead hard to be high risk, it would have to do something like root the survivor in place for 2 seconds if it misses, so the killer can easily hit the survivor during the missed recovery. Or it has to do something else that places the survivor at a real risk if dead hard misses.
The fact that so many survivors purposely dead hard towards a pallet, because they know they can throw a pallet very quickly even if the dead hard misses, shows the perk isn’t high risk.
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Im sorry, i stopped reading when u said that we should remove anti camp and tunnel perks for the sake of killers winning is their fun which isnt and should not be the case unless ur just entitled. You can win or lose and still have fun.
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Here's a video showing why you are dead wrong.
We have a ~7k hour streamer who is essentially powerless against DH repeatedly throughout this match.
DH needs to have a HUGE negative to make it good but situational. It cannot keep "the third health state".
Either this means : using DH once makes you broken for the match OR DH is a once per game style perk OR it means all healing events take 100% longer for you or when directed at you.
In other words : you would heal so slowly you would waste all the time you gained in a chase using DH. You would basically play the game hurt and not worry about healing b/c you would have two health states as a result of DH.
Another clever poster suggested : DH gives an endurance effect but no sprint burst. This would also work.
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Now, think about what you just said. You're 100% right that we shouldn't remove these.
Why though? The reason is that this would make the game overall less fun (apart from balancing problems, which I pointed out exist for DH as well). That was exactly my point regarding DH. It makes the game less fun overall. The one using it will either be frustrated because it doesn't work or they'll have fun using this perk because it does work for them. Killers on the other hand? How exactly is it fun to be forced to play around a perk that you don't even know is in the game yet? And then, you don't play around it once or twice but pretty much every single chase. If you risk going for the lunge and hit DH, you give that survivor the ultimate advantage in chase. A free health state. This can easily cost you the game, if it happens repeatedly. Even 1 DH is enough to put you into a losing position in a game that would otherwise be close. That gets frustrating after a while.
This is why killers play around it and this is also why DH is no fun when you go against it. I can live with a survivor making a good play on me. In fact that makes the game more interesting. DH on the other hand is always the same. You get into position to hit the survivor, now you wait. On top of that it makes the game stale. Any seasoned killer will expect survivors to run DH because it has been by far the most used perk in the game and it still is. In 6 years nothing has changed in that regard.
Something being fun doesn't make it healthy. That's exactly the case with DH.
Just as you can win or lose and still have fun, you can play with or without DH and still have fun. Otherwise you might want to consider playing another game instead.
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The argument of the survivors for this post will be one - dead hurd is now balanced
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That's partly why we're having this discussion.
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And that is disregarding the fact that the killer did something skilled as well to even get into the position where they can hit the survivor.
Exactly! Ghostface has been my main for over 2 years now and I can't explain how sick I am of performing a crazy mind game so I can have a SHOT at landing an M1 from maximum lunge distance just for the entire thing to be nullified by the ever-present threat of 'Dead Hard.'
In my case, it's literally like they are excused from losing the mindgame...when mindgames are all I have.
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Honestly? Dead Hard should give your allies a speed boost when you take a protection hit. It fits thematically, and would still be a strong perk.
Spot on.
"We were walkin' through t'ginnel one night when a beer bottle flew past me, then another, and another.
I thought to myself "Gonna 'ave some fun 'ere lads, let's get stuck in!".
It were a right dust up, I swear down!" — David King
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No. The reason i said that is because it removes a playstyle/interaction between killer and survivor. The mindgames are very interesting. And i agree, you can have fun with or without dh. But whether you like it or not, dh isnt going anywhere.
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This has nothing to do with "tru fan boys who only play killer".
For example: The vast majority of players (killer players included) agreed that Nurse was too strong. Nurse being hard and fun to play made no difference to the argument. She was still problematic.
This applies to DH as well. I don't blame anyone for having fun using it and I know that DH is not always easy to time. However, this doesn't change the fact that it's overused, horrible to play against and way too strong to risk not countering it. Most killers can realistically not compete with 4 survivors that have 3 health states in every chase. DH being hard to use, in some situations actually very easy, does not negate this fact. People can and will time DH correctly.
DH is impossible to balance. It will always be unbalanced because there are 3 types of players that you need to consider:
- 1) survivors that fail to use DH correctly most of the time
- 2) survivors that sometimes can pull off a correct DH
- 3) survivors that mostly pull off correct DHs
Which type of players do you want to balance the perk around?
Type 1) requires to buff the perk and make it easier to use. These people will then sometimes get value out of it. Only, this also effects Type 2) and 3) as these survivors will then have a much easier time to use it as well. Meaning more successful DHs per match and more killers losing because they have no shot to end chases quickly enough to win.
Balancing around Type 2) for reference would be what we have now.
Type 3) implies that too many people do use DH correctly. The logic response would then be to nerf the perk and make it harder to use. For example reduce Endurance time to 0.3 seconds. Obviously Type 1) would then pretty much never get any value out of the perk. Type 2) would become Type 1) pre nerf and Type 3) would only sometimes be able to use DH correctly. Then we'd have a discussion, that DH is too weak for most players but perfectly fine for the few who can DH on reaction.
Any nerf or buff to a perk has effects on every player using it.
Thankfully, that is not your decision to make. The devs have final say. I will continue to give them my feedback and suggestions and explain the reasoning behind my arguments to have a chance of them reconsidering Dead Hard and either finish what they started in 6.1.0 (nerfing DH to make to make it less prevalent) or completely reimagine the perk.
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Ummm,
I'm pretty sure people love 'Dead Hard' now for the same reasons they loved it before, mainly being a free pass on losing the mind game and going against Nurse (still too strong).
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So you just proved my point. You understand that right? You posted a video of a streamer with the highest level of internet bandwidth and a known close proxy to a server, which according to my argument would mean he would have success with dh in almost all his games.
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Most killer perks are passive, that is they change the perimeters of the game to make it more challenging. They do not have to time anything, no button pushing involved. They just get more formidable stats and create a more difficult play environment for survivors. Survivor perks are mostly active perks, that is they require skill to use. All players using dh should expect with a minimal amount of skill to get some use out of the perk.
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In theory I agree. Of course a perk should give you value for running it. Otherwise it becomes useless.
However, the kind of value a perk can and should provide as well as how often the perk should give you value are all points that you need to consider. SB for example will come in a chase no matter if the survivor is about to lose the chase or not. Same with Lithe. DH on the other hand? A killer will first chase the survivor, then eventually get a hit, fight for the second hit and then it all comes down do DH. Assuming a killer would only need 20 seconds of chase for each hit (which is something most killers can't even dream about), that would still put them behind schedule, if DH is used correctly.
Something that killers often have to do because time is not on their side is to leave chase. Against SB or Lithe that will come at the start of the chase this is fine. DH prolongs it after the killer has already spent a considerable amount of time in chase. Leaving now isn't an option as that would only result in wasted time for the killer and the chance of DH happening the next time they find that survivor as well. That means, a correct DH will put the killer in a lose-lose situation. Seeing as matches get more and more fast paced and one of the strongest slowdown perks will be nerfed it becomes more crucial for killers to not hit DH. To the point where it becomes pretty much useless.
My point is, the kind of value (a third health state) and the time it comes in clutch (when the chase should be over) are core problems of this perk and force the killer to play around it, denying its value.
The reason I suggested to completely destroy the perk is mainly because it's the easiest option for the devs to get DH out of the meta, improve QoL for killers and also get one of the most unpredictable factors for balancing out of the way. Otherwise, they'll have to go back to drawing board with this one and change its purpose.
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The new Dead Hard is worse than the previous version.
The new one gives you another health state, so long as you aren't already in mending status.
The low skill Killer players should have just shut up, cuz the devs made DH more annoying than it originally was.
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DH was disgusting in every skill level. DH for distance was the easiest and most unfair thing imaginable. New DH has higher payoff, the same awful counterplay and is prevalent in every game again. However, the nerf to DH was a step in the right direction.
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How?
They both let you negate a hit?
Both get can get you to a pallet and continue the loopz.
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DH for distance is gone so at least you can't use it to get to a window anymore. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with the nerf because they didn't solve the issues around this perk. But at least it's not as easy to pull it off as it used to.
The reason why it's a step (only a step though) in the right direction is that the devs are aknowledging the problem and at least do something. If I had no hope they'd look at DH again I wouldn't have started the post.
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Honestly, DH it makes my main killer unplayable.
I am just a speedy M1 killer now, people just DH the hammer, my animation takes so long to complete that they are long gone. If I try to chase them they can easily play a new title for dozens of seconds or just pre-drop a pallet.
Its crazy.
That perks needs to die to special attacks period.
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