http://dbd.game/killswitch
Nerf tunneling by nerfing gen speed?
Why has this become a popular take recently?
How are you fixing anything?
This is like saying, nerf gen regression to nerf gen rush.
You are saying reasons people use those tactics and tools. But how would people stop using them just because you nerfed the reason people use it?
If it's in the game and can be abused, it will be abused.
Tunneling and gen rush are cheap tactics because they are removing gameplay from the other side in an unskillful way. If you want people to not use them you need to touch the issue itself.
Lack of reward for hooking different survivors, how punishing the game becomes in a 3v1, lack of anti tunnel perks, the way perks are designed (survivor and killer side) that promote tunneling or punish killer playstyles, except tunneling. BNPs giving free reward for doing nothing, prove thyself escalating to 45% bonus for no reason while not having requirements, lack of regression counters besides gen rushing tools, the strength of holding 3 gens
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No solution for me.
Imagine you had 100sec gens-time.
1.) its boring
2.) Survivor-Team will bring Gen-Speed-Up-Perks / Toolboxes even more, because of 1)
The game needs sidequests for survivors. Currently you have tons of items. You gather more than you could actually use. Therefore Chests are complete useless, no one opens them anymore.
Because of Hex-Totems are so weak / Totem-Spawns are so obvious, Totems are no deal either.
Survivors need another thing to do than generators. This is the best way to make the game longer and give killers more time. However, if this would happen, you should reduce gen-speeds at the same time. We need more thrilling things to do than sitting on a generator, holding a button and press Spacebar sometimes.
How to achieve it?
- Mini-NOED Basekit (One time use for example - or two times, so that survivors are forced to cleanse totems in the progress)
- The Grind has been reduced. I feel like this system needs a complete overhaul. (mentioned before = Chests are left untouched)
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Did you read the post? It seems like you only answering to the headline.
Your solitions are worse than the ones the op provided. Yh it would be interesting if there would be different objectives, but how does that help with tunneling? In the best case the survivors need the same time for the new objectives. So tunneling doesnt change. In the worst case they need more time and its a buff for tunneling.
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The only actual solution for tunnelling is to make it impossible for survivors to be eliminated from the game unless certain conditions are met beyond the the three hook states. The issue then becomes would anything that can solve that be too game breaking and perhaps make the game a bit too hard for killer.
If we look at outright tunnelling (not the wishy washy definition I’ve seen some people try and use) of outright targeting one survivor, deliberately going after them when unhooked, tanking BT, OTR etc then I do think this should simply not be allowed to happen in the game. You can’t force all killers to play with sportsmanship or with the other sides fun in mind, so it’s up for BHVR to resolve this issue.
In my opinion, the only possible thing they could do would be to make sacrificing a survivor impossible before certain conditions are met. Whether that’s shared hook states, having to hook multiple survivors first etc I don’t know. I’ve long though I would like a in-built game mechanic that sort of functions like devour hope- killers build up some sort of “power bar” to use a crude term by playing well and creating terror- it should be easy to base this on the emblem system. At a certain point, killers can sacrifice survivors on hooks and beyond that a killer can Mori a survivor who’s been hooked once this proposed power bar has been filled.
If a system like this was in place and gens were going too fast I would then hope that BHVR would look at why this is but I think most people agree that hitting space bar every few seconds is not something the game needs more of. At this point you could look at Gen speed perks, making secondary objectives more viable (eg protect hexes for killers a bit better, remove OP items and add ons from the bloodweb and instead place one or two in chests in each trial). But the priority has to be working on tunnelling.
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I think its hard. Yh you could give buffs to the killer for hooking which deactivates if one survivor dies. So this gameplay should have the same strength than tunneling. If it would be stronger than survivor could force the killer to tunnel and that wouldnt be great either.
But theres one difficult problem: how strong do you need to make the buffs/debuffs so they equal a 3vs1?
You could solve it easier if you make it really hard to tunnel like with ds/otr etc. But then you have the problem again that survivors want to be tunneled.
Maybe the buffs/debuffs shouldnt deactivate if one survivor is dead? Otherwise survivor would let one die bc its the better choice. But if they dont deactivate tunneling killers can use them too. Like No Way out. You could let them only activate if all survivors are hooked, but then every team would make it really hard to find/down the last not hooked survivor. But maybe thats good.
Weaken 3vs1. But should you really give survivor a buff in that scenario. Would it make gens before friends worse? Maybe small buffs.
On the perk side i dont know which perk you mean. There are certainly some, but i cant remember. But more perks like devour would be great.
3gens are a different problem, even if its helps the killer to finish the game after tunneling one out. But if the killer tunnels, camps etc you can normally break the 3gen before the person is dead.
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Some ways I can think of to prevent tunneling are to give a survivor a new effect. If a killer hooks a survivor and immediately after they are unhooked chase them and down them again the next time they are off hook they are given an effect.
This would be similar to off the record. If the killer downs the survivor they can't be hooked at all, die due to bleeding out neither be mori. This will waste time and punish the killer for tunnelling. This effect can of course be removed. If the killer hooks at least one other survivor the effect will be removed permanently.
The effect to confirm will be active till another survivor is hooked.
For gen rushing I have something small but rewarding for killers who hook survivors. They should add a base kit pain reconnaissance. A small 3-5 percent regression to the generator with the most progress.
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Yeah, it is a very complex and hard thing to solve.
About the perks, for survivor perks like:
- Blood rush, doesn't work for hard tunneling and makes regular gameplay harder for normal play
- Off the record, doesn't work against hard tunneling and makes regular gameplay harder for normal play
- Renewal, doesn't work against hard tunneling and makes regular gameplay harder for normal play
- Deliverance, the perk is way stronger if the killer spreads his pressure on hooks instead of hard tunneling someone out of the game
- Dead hard, doesn't work against hard tunneling and makes regular gameplay harder for normal play
All of this perks either can't protect a survivor from a hard tunnel (i consider hard tunneling hitting you of a hook while in the BT timer) but they are effective against a killer spreading his pressure or "playing nice"
For Killers:
- No Way out, the perk gives insane reward that really doesn't promote spreading hooks because of the way the numbers are
- Remember me, promotes tunneling the obsession (this one is kinda weak, imagine if it was strong how much of a problem would be)
Honestly they have been doing a good job removing those perks from killers, we used to have others. But the lack of perks promoting spreading of pressure like Grim Embrace or Devour could be adressed. Or also the fact that they are really weak, like Grim embrace
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If tunneling was nerfed I think most viable tactics would be still target one survivor over others. For example hook survivor A then B then A then C then D and then finish off A. But that is fine game should become at some point 3vs1. But tunneling someone out at 4-5 gens left should not be a thing. But if killer is forced to 8 hook before killing anyone that would mean massive survivor nerfs. That 5-6 hooks before finishing someone off would not be so bad and would not fundamentally change the game too much.
My idea for tunneling nerf is basekit ds which would disable killer power for 5-10s and haste speed for survivor after unhooked. So you could still tunnel but other tactics would be more viable. Killers would need bit buffs after that and deadlock should be probably basekit. I think they should also made grim ebrace basekit too it promotes going for multiple hooks. But then also killers should be buffed accordingly and look their weakness.
For example myers should not run out off stalk and it should regain over time. Also his tier 3 could be more threating and he should have normal lunge in tier 1. Oni is easy to buff just make him 120% speed before he uses his power once. That should be enough to get hit agains't good survivors. Agains't average survivors it would not matter as you get hit anyway quickly.
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I think basekit ds is a bad idea. You could use it to bodyblock similar to current basekit bt.
Basekit bt bodyblock is annoying, but its atleast only a fake health state which even disables dh. If someone bodyblocks with it, you can go for them. There is a risk for the survivor, even if its still dumb when the unhooked survivor "wants" to be tunneled.
But with basekit ds you would now have a survivor on the ground and you cant pick them up. Slugging is not even worth it, especially with unbreakable. Its not really fun gameplay, if waiting out the ds timer is your best option.
The survivor should lose collision after being unhooked, but even with that they can still hinder a not tunneling killer.
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Run BT more and hope more people run it! If your that paranoid of tunneling run DS, BT/DS!
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Killers need an incentive that isn't bloodpoints to hook different survivors
Survivors need a secondary objective
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Maybe to fix tunnelling, along with basekit BT add in some kind of collision removal for the survivor, so they can't be hit for x seconds unless they do a conspicuous activity, but also cannot bodyblock/force the killer to hit them during that time too. Prior to the introduction of basekit BT this wouldn't have been very useful but now, along with the speed boost, it could provide genuine protection from hard tunnelling. It wouldn't stop a killer from trying to tunnel, but it would make it more difficult and potentially less rewarding, since the survivor has to make a real choice between safety and productivity afterwards. Of course you'd need to look at other perks in conjunction with that, but it's something to consider. Maybe adding in a change to gen repair timers relative to the number of living survivors would do something, but that would be very hard to balance right.
To combat gen-rush, nerf toolboxes' gen speed bonuses, nerf Prove Thyself and buff some more interactive perks like Repressed Alliance, Deja Vu, Situational Awareness etc. or make some generalised change that fixes how long a gen must take to be repaired to a set range, so you don't have gens popping in 35 seconds.
I like the idea of adding secondary objectives to the game, but Hexes, which can be a secondary objective, are generally weak if a killer can't protect them (which ususally means only strong killers who already have the power to control objectives can benefit from them anyway), and most survivors don't seem to enjoy Pig's traps or Pinhead's box. I think it would be worth adding them to weaker killers like Myers or Trapper, and strengthening them where they already exist to some degree like Onryo's TVs, but making a universal secondary objective would be very challenging.
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I'm convinced there are only two changes that need to be made for 'gen rushing'. BNP should give no gen progress, but lock in a gen so it can't regress below 50% (only usable above 50). And Hyperfocus shouldn't work when using a toolbox. If we're feeling ballsy, delete the BP bonus from prove so people stop thinking that 7 seconds on the last gen is losing them games constantly.
Most times, 'gen rush' is an excuse for killers who aren't as good at putting out map pressure as they seem to think they are. Just like 'tunneling' is overblown by survivors even though they got hooked on the 1st and 5th hooks of the game. Gen rushing and tunneling are real things, but aren't necessarily as common as a lot of people think.
The only viable fix to tunneling is to make tunneling (and camping) less efficient than spreading pressure. It will never be 'fixed' by perks, it will have to be a core game change.
Something like this: remove one hook stage per survivor and put it into a 'shared hook' pool. Anyone can use shared hooks, and those are used before your individual hash mark personal hook. So still 12 hooks max, but you'd have to tunnel or camp someone for 6 hook stages from the start of the game to get them out. That becomes a 'throw the game' play every time. This nukes tunneling at 5 gens, but does literally nothing to late game 'strategies', if anything it makes late game easier for the killer.
I'd also make tweaks like survivors can consume a shared hook to unbreakable one time, so early game slugging still gives pressure and can advance the game for the killer, but has counter play with only LIMITED uses of unbreakable. Survivors who attempt to Kobe consume their individual hook stage instead and don't sandbag the team's shared hooks by giving up.
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A DS basekit, disable when healed.
Gen takes 80sec to do
4 survivors alive requires 6 Gens to be done to power Gates. 3 alive requires 5. 2 alive requires 4. So case like 4 survivors with 5 Gens done, Killers can pick between last hook a survivor and power Gates, or go for more hook.
All survivors will always share "300%" Gen power. 4 survivors will do 75% efficient each; while 2 survivors alive will do 150% efficient each.
Killers have 3 special totems basekit (different look to Bone one). Only active when Gates are powered, 1 totem increase 4% speed, 1 totem is expose, 1 totem increase 8sec to open Gate. If survivors are at disadvantage, they can focus on Gen and ignore these side objective. Survivors know which totems is Speed+, Expose, Gate. Killers dont get noti if these special totems get destroyed.
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Essentially you make tunneling near impossible to do while simultaneously shrinking maps, weakening loops and lessening pallets. This prevents the tunnel but also makes pressuring the map and downing another survivor not take nearly as long which in turn slows gens down. They also need to make injures matter, currently self healing through medkits and CoH makes injures near worthless. Injures without crazy self healing slows the gens down as well as it forces teammates off them.
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What exactly are you doing to prevent a tunnel. Just buffed killers, thats all. What, are you gonna make the killer DC if he tunnels?
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Gens already take 10 seconds longer than what they used to. Definitely no need to make doing gens more boring.
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Only way to solve tunneling is to buff anti tunneling perks while also buffing gen slowdown perks. Increasing gen time while also nerfing slowdown perks heavily was a mistake that should be corrected.
Killers feel forced to tunnel someone out asap, because gens go so fast.
Gens go so fast, because survivors feel forced to complete them before the killer tunneled someone out.
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Welcome to the vicious cycle....
But having the Gens take 90 charges to complete means that Survivors will bring whatever they need to do them faster
Then Gen regression being left the same means that the Killer needs to overload on Gen regression perks and Tunnel one (or more) Survivors out
My idea is to adjust Survivors progression and Gen regression... cause having base progression 1.0-2.2 VS. .25 is just something
While reverting the Gens back to 80 charges (don't think that will help all that much)
The only perks that increase that for Killer are Call Of Brine and Overcharge... Ruin makes it the same but on Gens not being worked on
And Gen progression perks are Prove Thyself, Resilience... ETC oh and Toolboxes... Oh and hitting Great skillchecks
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Even if gens take 5 minutes to be repaired, people will still tunnel
The only way to stop tunneling is actually punishing killers that do so
And then we can talk about nerfing gen speed
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Well, of course. Players are still going to take the easiest path to victory. Especially, because nerfing gen speed buffs tunneling concurrently.
I don't know in what fantasy world those people live, when they parrot this nonsensical idea that players have some sort of benevolent honor code, that they would suddenly follow just because an inferior alternative is presented to them.
Nerfing gen speed to nerf tunneling is like saying nerf survivor run speed to nerf tunneling. Or, irl, saying that if you put broccoli and candies in front of a kid, the kid wouldn't go for the candies if you put the broccoli closer. It's just out of touch with reality.
But again, there's people who still haven't understood that survivors are already 3 gen'd if the killer protects one from the start. It's no surprise that there are some weird notions floating around that get credit anyway.
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What kind of comment is this? So passive aggressive.
I literally said we would make tunneling near impossible...how about just asking what ideas I had?
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Nothing in your comment would make tunneling impossible. Tunneling would still be the most efficient way to play the game.
Reducing pallets just makes dead zones easier and weakening pallets means chases are shorter, sure. But that also shortens chases for the survivor off hook. And if the killer has to choose between two health states of the rescuer (with maybe a dead hard in there), and two health states of OTR and a guaranteed down (with no chance of dead hard), they're going to go for the person off hook every time and get them out of the game faster.
Even if you make the map as small as the basement, with zero pallets, that wouldn't change the fact that tunneling is a permanent reduction of every survivor task by at least 25%, and that a 3v1 is basically a guaranteed win.
The only way to reduce tunneling is to make spreading hooks the more efficient way to play the game. Just flatly buffing killers or nerfing maps also buffs the effectiveness of tunneling and only makes tunneling more prevalent.
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I didn’t even give you my way of reducing tunneling yet…those things you responded to were not for reducing tunneling. Y’all are so hyper aggressive.
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wouldnt help killers would just have more time to tunnel survivors. u are not understanding the fact u can not change how some play what u can do is punish it greatly to incentivize it, humans learn by punish we remember punish and tend to avoid things that hurt a good punishment could discourage doing it, it used to with old DS to a certain degree.
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I am sorry, i wasn't trying to be passive agressive. I just don't understand what you mean by making tunneling impossible
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I addressed everything you mentioned in your post, and only targeted the points you raised, and why they won't do what you claimed (making tunneling impossible). No attacks on people at all. Calling that 'hyper aggressive' seems incredibly hyperbolic, though it occurs to me you may not have realized I'm not the first one you responded to either.
If you have actual ideas, please put them forward. Otherwise this is just post number 3 in your 'just wait and see, once I put my real thoughts on paper you'll all be amazed' tour.
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I was thinking something like a zero collision effect that would last until they do a conspicuous action or you hook another survivor. So this would mean they could literally stand there after being unhooked even and couldn't be touched. There would be some indicator so the killer would visually know as well. This would literally prevent them from being tunneled until he went after someone else or they decided they were ready to try and progress the game. The zero collision also prevents them from using the "invulnerability" aggressively.
As I mentioned before this would come with other changes to killer as I know literally untouchable sounds extreme to some people but that's more based on the context of how it currently is which would be changing as well.
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It's not hyperbolic. Read back from the tone you have typed to me in, it's hyper aggressive.
"I addressed everything you mentioned in your post, and only targeted the points you raised, and why they won't do what you claimed (making tunneling impossible)."
Also no, you didn't respond to the things to make tunneling impossible because I hadn't even mentioned what my ideas were for making tunneling impossible yet. Nothing I mentioned there was for making tunneling impossible, they were things to come along with IF we made tunneling impossible. I have not given you my ideas for actually how to do that yet.
"Otherwise this is just post number 3 in your 'just wait and see, once I put my real thoughts on paper you'll all be amazed' tour."
Like really, you don't think this seems hyper aggressive? You're typing sarcastic and mocking towards me...
Just have a normal and calm conversation asking about ideas, you don't need to be passive aggressive towards me when I haven't done a single thing to you.
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That sounds a bit overkill. As survivor i want to defend myself not be invincible. That just sounds not fun for the survivor, but yeah i guess it does force the killer to go for someone else, but feels a bit "heavy handed", if you know what i mean
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I can see what you mean. What were you thinking? It seemed like you were referencing in your original post about increasing the incentives for not tunneling?
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It's hard, but i will try and spit ball some ideas.
I would like a mini base kit POP for the unique hooks (first hook of a survivor), reward killer with better regression for unique hook. (I think this could be made base kit or just as a rework and buff to POP, for example 30% for first hook, 15% for second and 5% for death, also no more current progress BS)
Haste effect after an hook to increase map pressure and promote the killer to leave the hook.
Some base kit corrupt (something small like 10 or 15 seconds of all gens on the map being blocked), basically not giving survivors a big head start on gens before the killer can do anything, but not strong enough to be a 5th slowdown perk by itself
I would like for more perks that counter Hard tunneling from the survivors (instead of Soft tunneling or killers that play nice) and more perks that reward unique hooks from killers
Self Heals need to be nerfed, COH should get the self heal remove and just increase healing speeds (75%, i don't know if it needs a buff), Med kits should be locked to a maximum of 32 charges and maximum self heal speed of 25% (just to counter mangled) or nerf self heals more, but buffing med kits capacity to heal others (efficiency buff to heal others, heal speed buffs, whatever you can think)
A base kit punishment for tunneling, maybe if the killer has killed a survivor (DCs don't count), but he has a hook count lower than a certain value all the remaining survivors get an action speed buff to healing and repair
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so making the game easier for killer is gonna stop tunneling? that’s basically what you said. Yes let’s nerf survivor so the killer has easier time 👎
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I... Don't think you have to add more primal quest for survivor, but changing the actual...
Some team do all the gen in ... What? 2-3 minutes? And the other just barely manage to do two or three before everyone die
The actual problem with gen meta (gen rush/Anti-Gen rush) it's like "who come first? The chicken or the egg's?'"
If we nerf Anti-gen rush, nothing gonna stop the gen rush meta, and if we nerf Gen rush, nothing gonna stop anti-gen rush meta
Behavior need to find a solution, and studiying HOW this survivor manage to do this gen so fast, and the other not... Maybe nerfing the great skillcheck bonus? Because One times, I take call of brines, I left the gen I was just kick... And, after that, the sound notification for the great skill check on this generator pop everytimes, like, litterally all the one or two second... And I barely manage to come near the gen that it's done...
And the survivor don't have Hyperfocus... I don't really know if the gen rush perks are the big problem here..
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You're right, and this is the main reason I was never in favour of the flat increase to gen times that came with 6.1.
Even if you remove the reason killers feel tunnelling is necessary, that doesn't miraculously stop tunnelling from giving a huge advantage in literally any scenario. The cat is out of the bag, once killers start tunnelling, they don't just stop suddenly.
There need to be mechanics that directly impact tunnelling, such as effects that scale with the number of survivors in the game.
If the killer has an incentive to keep four survivors in the game for longer, such as with Thanatophobia, then you might actually curb tunnelling. The problem with Thanatophobia is that the activation requirements mean it only works on two possible killers.
For example, taking gen speeds as an example. If gens were repaired slower with more survivors alive, and faster with fewer survivors alive, you would incentivise keeping as many survivors around as long as possible. You then turn survivor elimination into a balancing act between living survivors and faster gen speeds. Tunnelling doesn't magically go away, but it stops being a win-win scenario, and there's a valid choice to make between spreading hooks and early eliminations.
Whether or not this needs to be basekit, or a new meta perk, is the question. One idea for a perk mechanism could be as follows:
- You gain a token for each unique survivor you hook.
- You lose a token for each survivor eliminated by any means.
- Each token increases/reduces effect x by y%.
- e.g. each token slows down gen speeds by 5%. or, each token increases movement speed by 4%, etc.
- I think this effect would be better than Thanatophobia, because it's not as transient, instead of having a lesser requirement of 'injuring' a survivor, with that effect dissipating upon healing, it's a permanent effect you gain from the more difficult requirement of 'hooking' each survivor, and only gets removed by your actions in an entirely fair way.
- As long as this effect is strong enough to make it a new meta perk, it would have a significant effect.
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It’s a good overall idea but I can’t see a way to really stop tunnelling. If you crank it up too much then survivors will play offensively if they get hooked twice to make use of the effects
Agreed on self healing being too strong though. Hell they literally nerfed leverage specifically self healing speed which is very worrying because self healing should be slower not faster
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Yeah I was thinking something around zero collision so they couldnt use the anti tunnel offensively as they do now.
That was pretty wild to see about Leverage. It was already a trash perk to me and then it got hit with that heavy nerf. Now sure why they’d want it to weaken the healthy way of healing and have no effect on the unhealthy way. Extremely confusing change.
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That’s not what I said.
If you reread it I said to make tunneling near impossible.
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The idea is to nerf gen speed to make way for nerfs to tunneling,
Part 1: Gut every perk, item and add-on that has to do with both speed up/slow down (So there is time to have more chases & matches cannot be too long or short).
Part 2: Mechanically restrict tunneling and camping until EGC (Since the killer will not NEED to do these things in order to prevent or counteract a "gen rush").
Part 3: Incentivize going for hooks with some version of base-kit Dying Light and awarding considerably greater amounts of BP for fresher hooks.
Part 4: Alter generator placement so that tight 3-gens cannot spawn.
Part 5: ______________________________________________(Brainstorm Time)
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Its a popular take because gens get done so fast that you can't go for chases. You have to play cheesey and camp or get someone out ASAP to bring the gen efficiency down. Not in every game just against survs who prioritize blasting the gens at light speed.
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it simply wouldnt work. the only way to fix tunneling is some equally/stronger effect to promote going for new people
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This is actually an interesting idea and I like the concept.
Personally I think this (or really any 'solution to tunneling') would need to be a base kit or core game mechanics change to be effective. If it's a perk, for example, it's either so good that it deters tunneling but then you really have no choice but to run it (not ideal with only 3 actual perk choices), or it's just good enough that tunneling is still just as, if not more effective.
But I'm not opposed to the idea of having this be a base kit mechanic. The only real solution to tunneling is to make spreading hooks/pressure more efficient, which I think this could do with the right numbers tweaks.
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I agree with the OP that the idea that killers tunnel because of how powerful survivors are is unrelated. Tunneling is the obvious path to victory, the idea that killers would play more "fair" if survivors were weaker just means those killers who tunnel would have an easier time.
Also I think the idea that the onus should be on the killers is wrong. Killers and survivors should both be trying to win, anything within the rules of the game should be allowed.
Fixing tunneling is a difficult problem. The game is built around eliminations. I think you'd probably have to rebalance multiple things to actually adjust tunneling. Some killer mains say they should get bonuses (ie gen regression) for hooking multiple survivors. I think that would work, but you'd need to adjust gen progress times to compensate. This means you'd also have to weaken starting gen speeds to prevent the killer from getting overwhelmed.
The problem with the ideas of boosting the survivors in a 3 v 1 is that losing another survivor should hurt. If a survivor gets hooked in a difficult to reach location the other survivors should be faced with a difficult decision of whether to go and rescue. If the survivors see someone hooked across the map, being chased on death hook, and just think 'no problem, we'll get boosted when he's out' it really changes the metrics of the game.
Though being we're all throwing out solutions, I'll give it a go.
If a survivor has 1 more hook state than everyone else (ie they are at 1, everyone else 0, or them at 2 and others at 1) they gain a 7% haste bonus. If a survivor is at 2 hooks and no one else if hooked, they gain a 15% haste. This lasts even if they do conspicuous actions until someone else equalizes them on hook.
This would make it harder, but not impossible to tunnel. Downside is that it wouldn't mean much against a nurse, but hard to balance around someone who already breaks the game concepts.
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