What makes a good killer?
It's pretty clear that a large part of this community is not happy with the Skull Merchant and the Knight. There are different reasons why many people dislike these 2 killers. For one, neither of them is particularly strong and both have a strength in defending 3 gens. That is something that, I personally think, makes a killer boring and extremely tedious to play against.
Looking back to the killer that came before the Knight, Wesker, we've seen a lot of positive feedback. He had some problems (bugs and hitboxes) but otherwise many players were happy with him. That might have something to do with Wesker being a licensed character but I think more than that his power is interesting and fun for both sides. He has a strong anti-loop power that can be used in creative ways, a secondary power that feels like an actual threat and animations and sound clues that provide just enough information to counter him. Overall Wesker is a good example of a killer that feels strong and fun to play without being 'unfair'. In my opinion this is very fundamental for a 'good killer'.
So what do you think are the qualities that make a good killer, not just in strength but also in terms of how fun they are to play and play against? Which of these qualities do the killers you don't like lack? If you do like the Skull Merchant, what is it that makes her a good killer in your opinion?
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The power has to incentivize skilled play on both sides and going for chases. This involves a mechanical skill curve on the power and some level of mobility. And ideally there aren't a set of add ons that take all the skill out of the power (Blight and Spirit).
The best killer powers take time to learn and have a back and forth in chase. Wesker is a good example of this. Billy too. Knight and Artist are really bad examples of this. There's no mechanical curve to them. They press a button and the survivor leaves the tile or dies.
There has to be some level of mobility or threat at range too. Again, this is what makes Knight so awful to play against. There's no skill involved on either side, and he lacks any mobility, so they almost always play a 5ever 3gen strat.
Post edited by edgarpoop on11 -
Oni is the perfect example of a perfect killer:
1 a power that must be earned but once you will obtain it you are a force to reckon with
2 has various counterplays (ok one of them is a bit boring/braindead by throwing mindlessly pallets in order to deny the killer's power releasing blood orbs, but except this one everything else is fun)
3 give you both lethality and mobility
4 your power will have a limited strength regarding loops (you can eventually catch people more easier in loops but it won't deny the defenses that survivors have at their disposal to use against you like nurse for example)
5 it's satisfying keeping busy the killer until his power will momentarily end
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What makes a good killer in a lot of ways is subjective. Differently players focus of different aspects that they find really suit their playstyle, but there are a few things that generally make a killer more likely to thrive basekit.
Low power barriers- Killer powers that are overly clunky tend to generally make using them tedious which even if the power is strong if you have a lot of things generally making it difficult to use effectively the killer will be bad. So the lower the clunky barriers on a power the better the killer to a point.
Mobility- Generally speaking killers that can alter their movement speed to be even slightly faster than normal do better. Though being fast alone make a killer good necessarily. Legion's a perfect example of that as while they've always been fast they have lacked in the next area which held them back.
Lethality- Killers with powers that have a tangible threat to the survivors flat out are better than utility powers in most situations. The level of lethality is usually balanced against being weaker in another area though. Bubba, Oni and Billy has instadowns but sacrifice either fine control or have a bit of barrier to using the power on top of cooldowns and wind ups for instance. If a power lacks lethality completely it can be difficult to function. You want both mobility and lethality as it helps make loops not a pain while also giving you more incentive to deal with hold W runners.
There are other things that you can consider on a case by case basis depending on what type or specific killer. Some killer types have a better anti-loop potential, while some are better defending/zoning etc. That's how I break down what a killer generally needs to be good at it's base, but there is something to be said about a killer power being interesting and unique even if that means maybe not being something that could be considered truly good. As long as using a power doesn't feel more frustrating than fun. For me Pinhead has that problem, using their active power is frustrating rather than fun on top of his passive power being at the discretion of survivors playing poorly rather than his own actions.
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Strong chase power and mobility are the best friend.
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In my own opinion (I feel is shared by many)
The killer needs to be engaging in the 1v1 chase DIRECTLY. A power that requires knowledge and skill to use and requires the same to counter it. This is where killers like knight and skull merchant fall short. There is no engagement in dropping a knight and a drone…. And there’s no knowledge or skill in holding W being the counter.
Model killers that excel in this : Blight and wesker I feel are top notch models. Followed closely by nemesis, huntress, billy, oni, maybe spirit and perhaps nurse to an extent.
Each one of these killers have unique counterplay to their power, but still remain extremely strong with skill.
Each of these killers has to be treated / looped differently. Some loops may extremely dangerous against a huntress while being safe against blight.
My personal favorite is mobility killers, Blight obviously being my number 1, because it fully eliminates the most BORING part of the game, holding W. There’s zero skill involved with it, so it is much more fun forcing survivors to stay at a loop and try to outplay me, or they hold W and I get a free down.
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In essence, a good killer kit has to have a skill-based power that is designed for chases (the most fun part of the game). If the killer kit is gimmicky and not a chase-based power, the killer will be very boring to play as and against.
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the short answer is
-The ability to counter shift-w in all forms.
-The ability to get hits on every pallet or window without vaulting/breaking the pallet.
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The long answer:
The main two ways that dbd gets those trade marks on killer is Mobility or Ranged attack for #1 and anti-loop for #2. If mobility or Ranged attack is not possible, an alternative method is to assume survivor can hold-w vs the power and to factor that in their balance by putting a lot of generator defence/game delay into the killer power, but often DBD puts too little game delay in killer power to compensate that.
If no anti-loop is in play, the alternative solution is to put stealth+instant down in killer kit but dbd often makes stealth dysfunctional and instant downs are rare or straight up impossible to utilize in killer power.
Huntress and Blight are best balanced killers in the game. Huntress has ranged capacity to hit survivor that run forward and make distance and her ranged capacity serves as anti-loop tool to get hits at pallets that weaker killer struggle to get fast hits in. Because her cooldown between m2 and m1 is short, she can pseudo instant down cutting the distance gain from injuries hit(build-in stbfl mechanic).
Blight can counter holding forward by his extreme mobility and he can use his mobility in creative way at loops using hug tech to get hits at pallet loops. At worse case scenario, he can break pallets then use his lethal rush to intercept the survivor between loops where survivor has to use environment objects to avoid his rush creating elevated skill-cap towards running forward and linking tiles.
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Having a real fear factor is important, something that the other side respects - something counterable, but respected. What comes to mind for me is Billy, Blight, Oni, and Huntress.
MoBilly-t is a must, killers need to feel like camping 3 gens is a waste of their time. This doesnt apply so much to Huntress due to the nature of her power.
Skill cuuuurve. If the basics and the advanced techniques are almost the same, this is a boring killer imo. It should feel rewarding to put time and effort into learning, and if ive spent 1000+ hours practicing one killer, i should absolutely feel oppressive with my specific power.
Counterable. Survivors NEED to be able to learn effective methods of countering the power. Shift+W is weak and boring, with Billy you need to know loop size, his rev times, obstacle collision, pallet timing, vault timing.
With blight you need to understand rebound tech, hug tech, collisions and swing timing.
You get my point, there's counters- theyre fun to play both as and against. And rewarding both sides too. I feel great looping a blight and leading him into a crap show of obstacle collision. Hes also among my favourites to play, maybe only second to Billy.
Tl;dr
Good killers are rewarding to learn, have counterplay, and are increasingly oppressive with mastery.
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Interactivity is a big one, on both killer and survivor side. Take Blight for example. Killer has to have the awareness to bump against solid surfaces and plan out the survivor's future movement to get a hit. Survivor has to get outpositioned and outplayed.
Now take Knight. Survivor goes to a safe tile, Knight drops a guard. Either survivor gets spotted and holds W while the Knight chases for 10 seconds to get his M1, or survivor doesn't get spotted and just leaves the tile on to the next one.
We need more killers whose power requires active input from the killer to use, like Wesker or Dredge, and less babymode trash press M2 to shut down loops like Knight and SM.
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what makes a good killer?
- mobility
- attacks that are rewarded by killer skill level
the problem is most killers can't pressure gens on large maps and even on smaller maps might not be able to secure hits and downs without losing generators.
further, as a nurse or blight your skill level is IMPACTFUL. incredibly so. if you use those killers correctly you will dominate your opponent. however, almost every other killer in the game can be outplayed by survivors. thus, the skill level of the survivor outweighs ANY skill level of the killer unless you're a nurse or blight. this is why the game is frustrating. it's not fun playing a killer when your success is based on survivors not playing optimally and making mistakes.
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Blight is literally the perfect killer( excluding a few add-ons) and will never be topped in terms of gameplay. He denies the worst aspects of the game for both sides and allows for the most amount of skilled play on both sides at the same time. Wesker was so well received because he is essentially a mildly different and weaker version of blight with slowdown built in. Blight has the most counter play in this game by far but none of it is available at any given time, he requires knowledge and skill to deal with him, something too many players lack or care for in this game.For all of my blight games I rarely receive any post game negativity especially related to blight. The only real post game negativity I receive is from comp teams that have egos and are genuinely not very good in chase imo, even though they have the skill of plat 1 players in league comparatively to dbd. They think just because they are better than all the terrible players this game consists of that they are good at this game, at least chase wise.
Anyway back to the point, if someone is complaining about blight they are really complaining about add-ons. Well, other than the hug-tech that any player with a little talent for video games and a little game sense under their belt can deal with.
At least in current dbd. If a killer lacks either mobility or some form of anti-loop, they cannot hope to have skill expressive gameplay. Survivor's don't want to go against a killer that makes them play like a bot. Killers in my experience want to play skill expressionless killers while also being able to contend with good survivors. I am also only talking about their kit, it's irrelevant how good of macro you need if the power requires zero thinking.
As with all games that are even mildly competitive, players want to be rewarded for skilled play. Not lose to something a newborn could pull of on either side.
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My only other issue with blight is how his collision is inconsistent. He slides right off cars and certain shack but other objects he gets stuck to
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Knight is an awesome killer, what are you talking about?
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He was not well received. Many refer to him as boring to play as and against. I said it for Skull Merchant but I would also like to hear what makes Knight a good killer in your opinion.
After all, this thread was created to understand what makes a good killer.
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I’d rather get killers like merchant every now again instead of every killer being “Blight but with 1 different aspect to their power”
Variety is necessary in a game as simple as DBD. That’s why we have so many perks
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That's fine. We don't need 10 different versions of Blight, I agree. But what is it that makes Skull Merchant a good killer in your opinion?
I'm trying to find out what qualities a killer needs to have to be a good killer.
In my personal opinion it's a power with high skill expressions for both sides and different ways to play as and against that killer. Knight and Skull Merchant fall short in that regard. But I know that some people genuinely like Skull Merchant and Knight. That's exactly why I asked: "If you do like the Skull Merchant, what is it that makes her a good killer in your opinion?"
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- Fun and interesting power and design (kinda subjective, i know)
- Power that allows for skill expression, both survivor and killer players
- Incentive for active plays and progressing the game and not stalling or to strong defensive tactics
I think this are my main points:
- cool concept, skill expression and active gameplay
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The ability to pressure multiple people either by quick downs or a good tool to deny progress untill its taken care of look at pinhead he has decent time to down but a great pressure with the box. He dosent have much mobility but can do good work
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I like skull merchant but I understand I'm different than most people in what I enjoy.
-I enjoy the 4v1 more than the 1v1
-I like have a ton of abilities to juggle or a resource to manage
-I like having an area of the map completely locked down
-I like having a power I can use in a bunch of different ways through transformative add-ons
So Skull Merchant isn't the strongest yeah but they tick all those boxes for me mostly for what is fun in this game for me so I'll still main them over Nurse or Blight both of which are objectively more powerful but a snoozefest to me gameplaywise.
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Knight goes to the other end compared to someone like Blight: your power's not super fast, you're not mobile, but you have the ability to pressure multiple people, zone things well, and force Survivors into taking hits sooner or later. The power itself isn't mechanically complex to use and learn, but that's fine; not everything needs to be a twitchy click-based skill that's all about how well you can micro aim. Macro-focused Killers are fine too. He could be better in that regard, and maybe a bit worse around loops (somehow), but that would pretty much need chucking one or two of his addons into basekit and reworking the others before you can even consider making regular use of long patrols.
Skull Merchant won't even have that level of macro gameplay or zoning potential. The weird hodgepodge of slow exposed buildup and brightly-illuminated stealth and info just leaves you with an m1 Killer that doesn't actually have much gameplay around loops or in chases even in an area you've set up for. It's just... working against itself.
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I like killers who focus more on info and other aspects then just straight up anti loop.
While she can deny loops it’s not like knight where you literally can’t loop any tile because it’s a guaranteed hit for him. She still has to M1 hit you
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Thanks for clarifying that. Can you explain a bit further what you mean by anti-loop? Because technically speaking every killer in DBD (including SM) has some kind of anti-loop.
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I consider anti loop the ability to make loops unsafe. Sure merchant can expose you but the loop itself is still safe and usable against her you are just punished more for messing up
On the other hand you have knight and artist. These killers make loops completely unsafe to where you have to leave or else you get hit. That is not the case for merchant or let’s say Myers or piggy
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