This game has become so survivor biased it's killing the fun for me.
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I'd trade old Haddonfield for Garden of Misery any day. At least Haddonfield had to be played exactly right to live up to it's reputation.
Also keep in mind that after 6.1.0 many things have changed. Including the amount of strong items, addons and offerings per game as well as the new survivor HUD. I don't think the argument: "Killer is easier than ever." holds true now.
A year ago I did better in my matches. Mostly because I (as far as I can remember) I never had a match that ended in 4 minutes (aside from cheaters). That isn't a rare occurance for me now.
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The number of items hasn't changed.
My own personal kill rate has gone up. Kill rates across the board have also gone up.
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Agreed. I always find it’s better as a killer to have multiple people on one Gen than survivors scattered across multiple gens.
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Uhuh. Sure. It's 4 items every game. Mostly medkits / toolboxes. Mostly with iri addons. That did change. Before 6.1.0 that was considered very rare. Now it's literally every game.
If your games aren't like this, then consider yourself lucky.
Also how do you know the actual kill rates? The last official stats we had are more than half a year old.
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That....hasn't changed? Med-kits and toolboxes have always been very prevalent since Keys were destroyed?
Those Kill Rates are still from the post meta shake-up. We've only really had one significant balance patch since then.
A 38.7% escape rate at the HIGHEST MMR. I believe this was also with DH having the longer Endurance duration, iirc.
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You didn't need to say you're a survivor main. Can already tell from your comment.
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Yeah, being able to pardon yourself from losing the contest at the tap of a button is just so cool, man...
Wish I could tap a button and make good survivor plays just straight up not count, sounds like heaven.
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It has changed. It was extremely uncommon to see the items we do today in a match prior to the reduced grind. Survivors would bring medkits and toolboxes, yes, but neither as many nor as strong as they do now.
These kill rates were published shortly after 6.1.0. Since then, survivors have switched back to DH, do not suicide on hook as much as in the first weeks (thank god for that), survivors and killers have gotten more used to this new meta and survivors got an updated HUD. Until we see some more recent kill rates, this proves nothing. The game has changed since then. Whether you'd like to admit that or not.
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I genuinely think when people say killer is a weak role they are referring to b tier and below killers. When they refer to Blight I just just start laughing.
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They've both been nerfed but continue to be unhealthy for the game. I have seen plenty of unhealthy things in video games. You simply cannot justify dh's continued presence in the meta after this many years. You cannot justify the anti fun gameplay of playing around dh every chase regardless of it's power level. You cannot justify 3 survivors resetting in 20 seconds because solos need a lantern to heal. I don't think dh is the giga sss tier perk people think it is on forums, in fact is functions like a slightly worse perk vs blight and m1 killers can counter it much better, but does that mean the perk should continue disrupting the flow of the game for majority of players? Is the dh mind game skillful for both sides? Potentially, but does it really have a place in this game?
I despised dh as a new player especially when it received it's god tier validation shortly after I really got into this game, I got bored of playing around the perks and not the players every game until 6.1.0. Then for a while is was funny to watch survivors dab before downing them for a couple months. Now it's back to the same tedious gameplay revolving around dh. You can argue dh isn't busted anymore but saying "it's been nerfed so it doesn't need any changes regardless of the most killer players hating the perk for it's entire existence" is a joke.
DH needs a feel rework and boons need real counter play so they can be balanced correctly.
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Was.* Apparently reading the entire post instead of the first few words is too difficult for some.
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I'm curious, how would you address SWFs? I don't see anyway to change them other to remove the ability to SWF from the game entirely, and if that happens the playerbase will drop off rapidly.
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Ideally give them a separate Queue.
Start having Killers and SWF fight over auric cells, maybe like 4 available per match(In the SWF queue only).
My thinking is everyone will have better match quality, because you can decide to face the same style of team each time. Your skills will grow due to exposure to opposition.
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That's an awful idea.
You can't punish people for playing with their friends.
There also absolutely no incentive to play against SWF, Killers will likely just sweat against Solo Q and decimate the EscapeRates in that queue while SWF's wait 20 minutes for a match
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No, its not.
Most mobile games use an incentive system to get players to engage with new content.
In this case, I said to pay with auric cells.
You could instead have a ladder with skins available for a rotating roster of the killers in the SWF mode. Both sides could earn the rewards. I believe players would line up to engage in this. They would gladly play harder matches for cool items, either via currency or directly via status skin reward. It doesn't make a difference how they incentive players to play the new match, only that they commit to doing it.
It would also be low cost for the developers, maybe a 3 month cycle and the top 100 get new skins in color A, top 300 in color B. and so on. Adjusting the system until numbers hit as required.
There is no punishment here, not even a nerf.
All this would do is set expectations for match behavior before pushing ready, and this alone would reduce complaints. People complain most when reality does not line up with expectations, not when they encounter some objective unfair system or concept.
As for idiots that chose to play downward and pick on casual players of either side in the non competitive mode no system is perfect, they will be around, at least they won't be rewarded for being dicks.
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You're damning people to extremely long queues and permantely sweaty games because they dared to play with their friends.
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Well, both sides will sweat, but they'll know what they are in for before they sign in.
Leave groups of 2 in casual.
3-4 in the SWF only reward mode.
Adjust as needed so people have fun and feel like they are getting what they want while not driving off players.
I think it'd be fun for most players. And the repeated exposure opportunities would make people who want to be better, better at the game.
I think it was Peantis that said most SWF are groups of 2.
Some groups of 3 and 4 will be forced to play harder matches that they might not want at the moment, I suspect they will be a minority. No way around upsetting people who benefit from the status quo when you try to make progress.
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Every situation where a survivor will DH is hyper telegraphed and can be outplayed. You people act like 0.5 seconds of endurance is an invincibility cheat for the entire match, and not something that any halfway decent killer can easily mind game and outplay.
I guess if you acknowledged that then you would have to actually admit there's room for improvement, instead of just pretending every single play you make is flawless and it's everyone else's fault if you lose.
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Before this patch, Killer was at its strongest ever. But go off I guess.
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When killer perks get nerfed, they usually get nerfed so hard, that they completely vanish. Or when was the last time you´ve seen Ruin or Undying?
Meanwhile, when survivor perks get nerfed, they still remain the most used perks like CoH or DH.
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that is already the case though in current rank queue. most soloq's get decimated while SWF generally has good winning chances against all of the killer cast although I would say that SWF win chances are more skewed towards them then killer. I am not sure what your point is.
I still think gap between soloq and swf is too large even though its slightly improvement with UI. I am not sure how much I would say it has improved. Like if kill-rate difference was 15%, The UI improves it by 2%. Overall I would like gap to be around ~5%. I think SWF is always going to have an advantage because they can often get better perk synergy then soloq and they often know their teammates weakness & strengths better then soloq teammates, so I think that SWF will always escape more then solo. SWF and Solo is like solving poverty in the world. You never really remove poverty in the world. you lessen it to less noticeable degree.
I still think that soloq should be better at
A) Dealing with killers injure pressure in the game. I think big issue in soloq in that average soloq player deals very poorly with injure pressure from the killer. Basically healing is harder to come by on average in soloq without med-kits or COH because its difficult to find teammates in timely manner. This does not mean soloq cannot heal. I am just saying that they will heal slower on average when Med-kit or COH is not present in their game compare to SWF.
B) Knowing where their teammates are getting chased. This is important for many reasons but two major reasons why its important is that when killer chase survivors, they break pallets. Running into dead zones when pallet are broken is common misplay for soloq survivors. Window of opportunity is very popular perk as result. The other reason is that knowing where killer makes it easier to go for hook saves which leads to my next point.
C) Dealing with hook camping. Although it is less common to have multiple survivors in soloq to go for hook saves thanks to new generator UI, I still think hooking might be an issue for low-mmr to mid-mmr survivors.
D) Knowing which generators specifically are being worked on when a survivor is in chase. This is important because a lot of teammate often accidentally bring killers to generators which can often make it more difficult for teammates to repair generators.
I think if they fixed these 4 issues, SoloQ and SWF will be much closer in escape rate. Currently these 4 issues are fixed in soloq, but they fixed in soloq through perks which is not ideal because it means that soloq has minus perk slots else they're at disadvantage.
-med-kit and coh should not be mandatory to heal in timely manner in soloq, in fact these two are often complained about by killers for being too strong.
-Window of opportunity should be less of necessity in soloq. One particular aspect that I think should be base-kit is what pallet has been dropped on the map. Killers already receive loud noise notification when a pallet is dropped but there no indication for survivor that a pallet has been dropped.
-Kindred is often perk referenced when talking about hook-saving. No clue what could be done on this front for how this could be base-kit because survivor aura is what helps survivor know which survivor is going for save.
-Bond is perk associated to knowing where to loop as survivor. this perk allows you to figure what generators your teammate are working on in the chase. Again I am not sure how this could be implemented in the survivor base-kit.
Currently too much of soloq is balanced around perks. Because of this fact, it is difficult to improve killers power to be more relevant vs SWF when soloq relies so much on perks to be competitive and play at closer aligned level to SWF coordination.
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COH and DH I will completely agree with you on, however I'd like to point out that Undying remained meta even after it's nerf because Ruin was simply that good (and was then overnerfed into oblivion, taking out Undying with it because no hex perk is worth the slot anymore, let alone 2 of them). Also, I'd like to point out that DS and IW, arguably some of the strongest survivor perks pre-6.1.0, have both been hit with the nerf hammer so hard they fell out of basically any and all use.
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On DS i also agree with you. 3 Seconds seems way to short and i honestly thought, that the devs would reverse it to 5 seconds, like they did in the past. IW however was on par with Spirits phase walk and since this is now cristal clear to hear for survivors...
But yeah, not working while exhausted also seems a bit to much for me.
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So let me get this straight,
If you outplay the killer at the mindgame in a loop, it should count and there's no problem, but If the killer outplays you in a mind game at the loop, you should be able to pardon yourself from the outplay because you tapped one button on time?
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thats a problem related to the boons itself rather than CoH , like there is no punishment for using them unlike hexes , kicking them is barely useless , and the only reason people arent complaining is because the amount of people that runs CoH or other boons, dont know how to select a good spot instead of booning over and over wherever they go and by doing that killing their team by not being productive.
easy solution: once a totem gets kick by the killer , the totem becomes protected by the entity for 60 seconds , boom , the end.
"if the killer or a perk interacts with that dull totem : like pentimento / plaything , the totem gets unblocked instanly"
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If people think playing killer is so hard and unfun nowadays, you're welcome to go back to 6-7 years ago, where hooks could be broken permanently and killers like trapper could have their traps broken permanently as well. Now isn't that fun?
Boons aren't as bad as people make them sound like, I'd say they just need a little fine tuning, like maybe give the bless ability a cooldown when a boon is snuffed out so it can't immediately be remade instantly. And dare I say, Dark Theory needs a rework and be changed to something else or boosted because it's so bad for a boon perk.
Dead Hard is a pain but it's much more manageable than it used to be. It still gets overused a bit but how would you further cut down its usage without gutting the perk entirely? Because further nerfing might just do that.
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And how exactly would you balance giving Windows for free, kindred for free,bond for free, and I'm assuming you're asking for a sub 10 second self care solo at any time?
Between the already base BT that's 5 free perks plus completely breaking the healing economy of dbd( bringing the total number of survivor perks = (5 + 4)4 = 36 perks vs the killer 4)
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Its sad that it would even be suggested.
Did everyone forget this is a video game we all play in our free time?
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now you know why swf to some degree breaks the game in term of perk economy and why soloq has negative perk economy which is one of the reasons why killer kill-rate is so high. I am just explaining to pulsar in regards to his kill-rate chart. Basically if your a strong SWF, you have near zero possibility to make any large macro error in the game unless your purposely trolling or something.
And how exactly would you balance giving Windows for free, kindred for free,bond for free, and I'm assuming you're asking for a sub 10 second self care solo at any time?
zero clue. I am just talking about each individual problem, not necessary the solution. DBD is not survivor sided. its SWF sided. arguably the game is killer sided if your strictly looking at odds of escaping vs odds of the killer killing since a vast majority of games are either full soloq or 2 man swf at best which is still pretty strong as 2 people gain access to breaking economy instead of 3/4.
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Circle of Healing means killer either commits to the chase or gets nothing.
Every game against decent survivors involves toolboxes, medkits, dh and boons. There's no room for casual killer gameplay because game offers way too much help to survivors while punishes killers for any mistake. It's simply annoying to deal with the same set of perks and same kind of playstyles because the odds of winning are simply too high and there's no reason to pick weaker perks and struggle instead.
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Ive made a post about this before, but as a Billy main, it feels awful to play since every map release and map rework has been horrible for Billy to play on, and BHVR just keeps forgetting that Billy exists.
That being said, for most other Killers, I do not really struggle enough, nor do I not enjoy the game. I think DBD is a much more enjoyable experience if you stop trying to take it super seriously, you can look at so many community members and see that most of the hyper-competitive players are miserable while everyone else is having fun.
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I think people are missing probably the biggest sole reason why survivors meta barely ever changes - and that's due to there never being any decent alternatives given.
CoH has been almost the only perk in 2+ years (that even AFTER being nerfed multiple times) has proven to stay in the meta -because even in it's nerfed state it's one of very few survivor perks that helps the team collectively and can almost always give value in a match.
Killers have got about 3-4x the number of useful perks and combinations that can provide good-decent setups and value and most give value passively by just playing the objective and getting people hooked or downing them.
Beyond most exhaustion perks and CoH I would argue what are the other decent survivor perks that always provide value and help to 'win' a game? - There's lots of 'fun' perks or meme type builds or perks that can maybe provide value but more often than not will provide none or require you to take time away from doing your objective to set them up or use them.
I hate dead hard, it's undeniably the hardest exhaustion perk to pull off as you need to time it, whereas every other one is effectively activated passively, however DH is still always going to stay in the Meta as it's able to be used anywhere (e.g. head on you need a locker, and lithe you need a vault) and you don't need to 99 it like sprint burst.
If more exhaustion perks appeared more valuable or gave you more control I think DH would see a lot of people drop it. Ultimately, most people usually run 1 exhaustion perk and the alternatives just are a bit poor, especially for those who excel at baiting and timing their DH (i'm not one of them - i'm rubbish at using it when i try).
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DH was nerfed lmao, it was worse back then. You seem to think that nerfs are meant to stop you from seeing multiple of the same perk, apparently. And that because a perk is still used frequently because 80% of other perks are garbage, the nerfs weren't nerfs.
And judging by this, you're dealing with meta squads, looking at the other perks. Of course you're going to see 4 DHs. There's someone with a Hyperfocus+Stake Out combo, 3 OtRs, two Adrenalines and two WoOs.
You guys just want every perk to be like No Mither, don't you?
Agreed on the Eruption bit though. Should've blocked gens and stopped working at 1 gen left instead.
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Between that and the DC games that were thrown out, it probably evens out.
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Suggesting a thing that most other games of this type use is normal.
I'm sure they have discussed it.
As an example consider the following scenario:
At least once a night I will face a squad of 3-4 that bring a map offering and perks to support play on their map of choice. They have obviously practiced their approach to this map using the perks they have equipped. This could be fun, but generally it is not for me, at least. That is because I have equipped a build designed to support learning Blight's bump logic, and nothing else.
So how am I equipped to provide an adequate challenge for them at match time? I'm not, unless they happen to pick an open map for their game, too many obstacles and corners combined with generator efficiency on their part means I can not provide a challenge for them.
That is why I suggested separating the queues, so everyone that joins the new queue knows what they are in for before the match starts. They would also be given adequate motivational reward to join the queue.
I personally want this, because there are plenty of competitive people laying around, I'm sure teams will form quickly to farm whatever is offered in the mode.
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None of those stats should be considered as they don't reflect the true state of things. I still remember where Sadako was considered as one of the few killers with highest kill rate. Guess what? Against beginners and bad players even trapper can have a 3k+ kill rate. When it comes to decent players ( especially swfs with voice ) killers like Sadako are at bottom tier with 1 kill on average.
I understand the logic developers do follow - they want game to be beginner-friendly and at low mmr level it's clear that survivors struggle a lot. Even with plenty of base-kit perks and lots of second chance perks the kill rate is indeed 2k+, but this problem comes from the lack of proper practice / learn field. Beginner survivors don't have a way to learn how to play other than start a match with random team mates where their chances of getting sacrificed are very high.
Survivors need a place to practice. Give them bot killer, at least one so they can practice to juke, hit skill checks, hide and help each other and you will notice how kill rates will go down because there will be less beginners being thrown as a food to experienced killers. As for people who willingly kill themselves on first hook - that's a human factor. Not much can be done there other than give such people ''incentive'' to actually play the match and not just die asap and move to the next one.
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Unfortunately, these ARE the "high MMR" Kill Rates.
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This does not consider human factor, also it's clear devs don't take top MMR numbers into consideration at all.
Also how are these numbers calculated? Does 65% chance kill rate mean that Wesker has 65% chance to get at least one kill per match, or does that mean he kills 65% of survivors per every match? According these numbers Wesker should reliably have 2k+ kill rate, but I doubt every Wesker match does end that way.
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He gets 2K+ per match at the top 5% of mmr.
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He gets 2k per match every time or he gets 2k per match in 65% of the matches?
Also this data feels dated. A more up-to-date information would be a better example because meta certainly shifted numerous times during those 2 years.
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This...is literally the most recent data we have. Its only a couple of months old, not years.
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It is from 2022. It's missing bunch of killers. I recall there was similar one with more recent date which featured the general kill rate of all killers. It had Wesker and Sadako at top list with Nurse being officially the lowest tier. There was a big debate about it's accuracy as well.
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I mean how games in these stats were top 5% killer vs 4 top 5% survivors though? Probably not very many. Other than 4-man swfs the chance matchmaking actually grabs 4 top 5% survivors cannot be very high.
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That is an amazing question.
In order to accept statistics we need a little more analysis from the source.
I mean, right now I'm wondering what high MMR means, is it the average of the survivors MMR? like three have 4k MMR one has 0 and MMR used for the stats is 3k, which would or would not mean top 5 MMR?
Too many questions, too many anecdotal reports that dissent from the show numbers.
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I have no idea. I can only report on what's been shared.
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It's missing the two Killers who have been released from that point.
This is the most recent one, iirc.
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There are reason penuts(I know that's spelled wrong) said take it with a large a grain of salt. Even if I am a top 5% killer player I doubt I go against a full top 5% team more than 1 in 10 games. Queue times would likely be too long if that was the case.
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I guess you could always exploit the weak link for win.
And I'd assume you'd exploit that link 25% of the time just by playing.
So, I don't know what to conclude from these statistics aside from the majority of anecdotal reports disagree.
Either the stats are wrong, or everyone is dumb.
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Stats are certainly wrong.
There are plenty of factors involved. There can be more than 1 weak link, there can be no weak links. Some players can do critical errors, some can play flawlessly.
Thing is this game is heavily balanced around lower MMR rank and not average MMR. Top MMR is mostly ignored by devs because clearly that playerbase is small compared to average MMR which in turn is smaller than low MMR. The problem here is devs try to make game easier for low MMR player but the ones who receive the ''blow'' are people from average or high MMR. Top MMR players usually aren't effected much as well as competitive players who play by their own set of rules already.
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You can ID the survivor mains because they are the ones insisting that problematic survivor perks aren't really a problem.
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