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MMR: Something no one asked for and now we have to deal with it
I don't know why Bhvr thought we need something like that.
"Oh no little Timmy who plays once every few weeks can't win a game! Let's create a System to punish all other players who actually spend time in our game by forcing them into sweaty rounds so little Timmy can get matched with players like him and maybe win now"
Comments
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Just so you know people did ask for a new matchmaking system because ranks sucked too
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Sounds like its not just Little Timmy who cant win a game
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I don't know under what rock people who say nobody asked for mmr lived
Everybody asked for a change, the rank system was horrible
And imo atleast, mmr is league's ahead of how it used to be even with the issues with it.
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Actually it was kind of asked for but people should of realized it was BHVR that was going to design it, big mistake.
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I hate to be that guy, but being able to win without even trying is the very definition of a matchmaking system not working. You're not being punished by having to try, you're being matched against people of your skill level. And if you really do want to relax and not take it too seriously, you can do that and your rating will adjust to where you can relax and still do reasonably well after some losses.
And as others have pointed out, a better matchmaking system was a very common request. The old rank system was not as unanimously loved as you might remember.
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My guess is that what the OP is experiencing is what many other players experience in an effectively non-functioning SBMM matchmaking system. Many of us know based on direct experience that there is a huge range of skills levels that we get matched against. This is because of the strong bias of the matchmaking system to prioritize queue time over fairness.
Devs can say all they want about how the system is supposed to work, but we all have our experience to prove that it effectively doesn’t. If the system really does work, show us the data - let us see the MMR of everyone in the match to prove that the matchmaking is fair! I think the reason that BHVR won’t show us the MMR data is because it would prove what we all know from experience - that the SBMM system is at best wildly inconsistent.
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This is a hot take...I mean can MMR be improved? yes. SHould there be no MMR? are you kidding? You just said "i wanna beat up on babies cause I can't play real gamers"
Do I say it? (skill issue)
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Honestly MMR is easy to ignore once you stop focusing on it. A game like dbd will never have a perfect MM system and even if it did everyone would hate it because it would have super long queues and make 4k + 4 escapes less common
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The problem is that this game isn’t balanced enough to have MMR. Every match now is a race to immediately tunnel someone out so that it becomes manageable. Before MMR, I could usually play pretty chill and not have to hard camp/tunnel. The old ranking system was flawed, but it was better than this.
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So your complaint is that people who play often and to win get matched together, and people who play once a week get matched together?
You are complaining that the matchmaking system works as intended?
Ok dude.
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MMR is not a bad idea in and of itself.
The problem is that Matchmaking Time is more important to the DbD team than Matchmaking Accuracy.
We know this because they conducted a large number of different mmr strategies and reported on them. The one that most accurately matched skill levels together took somewhat longer than they were willing to accept (and in the case of hyper-ranked survivors, FAR too much longer). So now we have a system that starts accurate and grows less and less accurate as every second passes in the survivor queue.
If we had kept the strict MMR borders, MMR would be a tremendous blessing for game quality, but a burden for wait time.
Personally, I wish we wouldn't had longer waits for better games. The short wait for crummy games sucks.
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For what it's worth, the overwhelming majority of matches have hardly any different in ratings. It is not common for the matchmaker to expand to the maximum range- most people will have a match long before that can happen. It'll be a little more common if you're at an unusually high or low rating or if you're playing in off-peak hours for your region, but at that point there's only so much the matchmaker can do. No matter how long you wait, it can't find you a better match without players of your skill level playing at that time in your region.
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Imagine not knowing people have asked for MMR in DbD for a long time and then come on here to claim nobody asked for it.
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When you say they don't have much of a difference in rating, do you mean as in REAL rating? Or do you mean as in, the fake cap of like what was it? 1500? that you put on matchmaking that means a survivor that is 2k+ mmr could be matched with a 1500 mmr killer and that would be seen as "fair"
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I'm sorry that is so bs right there. I was a killer main for 2.5 years when I first started playing and have been a survivor main for 3.5 years now, playing killer occasionally for challenges.
My killer mmr has been sky high for what feels like forever. I've been getting 2 hooks per game if I'm lucky and after about 8 games I might be lucky to get a 4k. When that happens my mmr shoots straight back to 2 hooks.
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That's the problem a lot of people created for themself
The MMR looks to give you a winrate of about 50%, Racing to tunnel someone out is a cheese strat. It's something that will decimate lower experienced survivors but good survivors will counter it easily if the killer isn't good in chases.
People want to win more and they hear tunneling is super effective, so they do that and crush the survivors they were matched with. Untill they start facing survivors that know how to deal with it and then they are stuck in a MMR zone where their only tactic doesn't work. They don't have the skill to actually beat these survivors so they think that the only way to win is to tunnel.
I don't hardtunnel or camp unless the survivors are begging me to do it and my killer matches are usually chill. Sometimes i lose ofcourse but that's how it's suppose to be
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I think most people that are complaining about matchmaking is due to the end result. Really I doubt matchmaking is the issue, the issue is how you calculate MMR. You can run a sole survivor build and escape without being productive or engaging with the killer, you can not escape and be the most productive survivor in the match. You lose MMR in matches were someone DC's or quits right away, not saying it's not possible to win a 3v1 but really if the killer is close to your "skill" level that shouldn't happen. I'm sure MMR works at the extremes of the "skill" spectrum but I'm pretty sure everything in between is just a nonsensical ######### show.
Post edited by th3syst3m on2 -
How do you explain that the average killrate is not 50% then?
I can very reliably get 10+ winstreaks as killer and I'm not Otzdarva. In contrast as solo survivor I escape ~30% of the time and my MMR clearly doesn't go down.
I trust your good faith but there's just something that is completely off with DbD matchmaking. As killer especially I get matched against baby survivors who cleanse totems for their challenges then the next match against a SWF of 2000+ hours players. I have seen this happen for every single streamer. It definitely doesn't feel like there's any matchmaking at all.
In Overwatch, I played ~2000 games, my winrate turns out to be exactly 50% (1003 wins), same is for most of my friends, and only the top players exceed 50% (they usually reach 55-60%). The top ranked player has 62%. In DbD, I don't know anybody who is even in the 40-60% range, it's either lose every game or win every game.
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I win literally 95% of my matches. If I’m not at top MMR where tunneling supposedly “doesn’t work” then there is something very wrong with MMR.
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LMAO thats good!
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Tunneling is still best strat sure it carries bad players but that just exactly shows how powerful it is. Good killer tunneling will have very good chance winning agains't good survivors.
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I did say "if the killer isn't good at chases"
If you're a godchaser or a nurse then yeah you can still pull it off
When i talk about tunneling i do mean the "pick one survivor and nobody else exist untill that one is dead" kind
Getting a player out of the game asap is ofcourse the best strat. I just find that focussing everything on a single survivor can backfire hard.
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I believe we just need a casual game mode instead of everyone being forced into ranked every game. There's a lot of people who just want to have fun and chill, and a lot of people who just want to win - these two groups should not be coupled together without an option. Baby players barely even get an opportunity to learn the game before they are thrown into a system where they are harshly punished (tunneled) for simply not knowing how to play yet, and this ruins the experience for a lot of early players who just want to learn. I and others should not have to explain that this is just a part of the game, they should have the option to do normal or competitive game play. Maybe I am very off-topic but I believe this to be the biggest flaw with MMR personally.
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Completely agree! I want to play more killer but keep getting stomped every single game by meta survivors. Dead Hard and Adreneline constantly. I'm struggling to get hooks, let alone kills.
When I play survivor I never use meta perks and have decent games without needing to use the best perks in the game.
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With this all youd have is the Apex Legends situation
where low MMR players have a better time in ranked, and if they care about their rank then theres no winning. You have a bad time no matter what
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‘Why isn’t an asymm with different team sizes and power roles as straightforward to balance as a game with even teams and roles?’
Hmmm, I wonder.
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Again, you are showing a lack of understanding. With Nurse, yes, I agree that she is less reliant on tunneling. But if you’re going to tell me that a killer like pig can catch a decent survivor in a reasonable amount of time, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Maps are too big and there are too many safe pallets. The problem with DBD is that being “good” at chase often just means getting good rng/survivors messing up. The skill ceiling is too low for most killers to show skill.
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Yeah, you can't really compare DBD to much, really, and certainly not on a one to one basis.
I don't think it is balanceable, really. The best we can hope for is a loose approximation, and even that seems optimistic. There's just too many ways to play, and too little of what does on in a match is quantifiable in any meaningful way for there to be an accurate system.
And color me skeptical that the match maker is all that accurate even in what it is trying to do under the parameters it has. Most of my lobbies are quick, but the matchmaking seems scattershot at best.
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Going to disagree with that
People either heavilly overexagurate how hard it is to get a m1 hit or their view on what is a "decent" survivor is very skewed
It's not impossible to get m1 hits, if it was then killers like Onryo or Legion wouldn't be at 60% killrate at high mmr. There are enough content creators that show it's not impossible to win with a m1 killer. You have to be ruthless yes but not impossible
Ofcourse a pig is not going to win against a 20k hours combined comp team but that's not what you get when you get a game, even at high mmr
Again when i talk about tunneling not being needed or even being detrimental to win i do mean the "get a kill by hook 3 kind" you still need to get a kill by atleast hook 5
I know i'm not going to change your mind so i'm not going to try but when you say i have a lack of understanding, i say your view is probably based on the sounds of echo chambers rather then on your own findings
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It is based on 5 years of playing this game. Killers are over 60% kill rate because most of the playerbase is bad.
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Has anyone considered something this simple
playing solo vs on teams affects things ?
I will as killer routinely see new players paired with pros. People get boosted.
I have a swf where I’m miles ahead of the other players. I have a separate swf where I’m the weakest link
mmr can’t work very well when people are given wins they don’t deserve, losses they don’t deserves, etc because of people playing together at differing ranks. It really boggles my mind no one is mentioning this
I had a ten escape streak a while back with a group who isn’t great but i intentionally baited the killer almost e wet game to chase me 2-4 gens. Then I log off and they are fighting cause they’re win rate dropped and they are blaming each other when frankly i boosted them
meanwhile when I play with my buddy-I’ll call him ankles cuz he breaks them- the killers he pulls in destroy me in chase in 2.3 seconds. But I know going into the game with him I’m in a boosted lobby
there are more variables than JUST the system
no I do t like sbmm and ever since Patrick said that nonsense he said and then took away dowsey a twitch shirt for critiquing him I have my doubts that the devs even like it and just doubled down due to criticism
BUT
at some point players need to take some accountability for the lobbies they go jnto as well
not to mention. I play both sides and I e seen how people play. You want to do half a gen all match and wonder why gens aren’t done, you want to let a teammate die first hook then complain you have five gens left and the killer isn’t throwing because you messed up etc
I can play killer and chase one guy and know “nope he’s gonna waste my time” then go chase a Dwight who goes down immediately and dies on hoo on purpose (happened last week before I took my break in lerys as wraith. Man’s just gave up with five gens left. Meanwhile I couldn’t catch claudette ONCE until she was last player, so have her hatch)
every time you die on purpose, throw a match, go into a swf with people at different skill levels, you are artificially changing your MMR. Take some responsibility for that
you die on hook four games in a row, you get a weaker killer who you beat, then it shoots back up rapidly and you get one you can’t beat and try to blame the game.
sbmm is bad sure but player behavior is def affecting things too
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The matchmaking system seems to be a total failure for solo survivor lol. I can die 10 matches in a row and I'll still get matched against multi thousand hour killer streamers that are great at the game. It makes no sense. If I suck at survivor and only play it to get tome challenges done, there's no reason I should be getting matched against OnePumpWillie and Ralph with a team of players even worse than me and us getting 4ked at 5 gens
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The current MMR is not the best and need more refinement for sure, but the old Rank System was way worse, specially for killer, if you were using a killer in which you are not very good you were facing survivors of your rank, I hesitated a lot of playing my least used killers when I was reaching the green/purple ranks which didn't take too long.
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I missed being called a rank 20 boosted survivor (bring back ranking system)
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I would think in an ideal world what would be defined as "toxic" strategies (face camp at 5 gens, tunneling off hook, full intentional bleedout, survivors intentionally sandbagging each other etc) would have meaningful reports for doing this in a casual game mode. But I mostly just want the option for newer players, and players who are simply there to goof off or get BP have the option to do so with less chance of it being obstructed. Some people play this game with the intention of making other's days miserable, I would like to think the players like this would be more easily recognizable and reportable in a mode where people aren't playing for a ranking/end of season bloodpoint incentive. Who's doing full 4 person slug at 5 gens in a game mode where a 4k won't benefit you?
It's not to say the issue will be completely fixed, every community has its bad eggs, but it feels like a positive start if the game has enough player base to support it (which I can admit it may not)
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Hence my first sentence "In an ideal world", this is what I would like to see them do, but I am willing to accept it likely wouldn't happen. And yes, there will be bad eggs in anything and everything, just like there is in every other game that has a split between normal game modes and ranked systems, the point is to lessen the blow, and give something to our baby players who experience far too much negativity early in the game because any killer who wants to win generally resorts to frowned-upon and unfun strategies to do so, without care or thought as to whether the player is new or not. I'm aware the problem would not be eliminated, but it would not be as extreme, as the normals mode is intended for players who are either less experienced and looking to learn, or those who just want to chill here and there without (mostly, not always!) the fear of losing a pip or their beloved party streamers to a 5 gen facecamp.
I understand your points and concern with it, but at face value can you really say this is a bad idea when so many players are sick of the META and game balance? It would also be nice to practice killers you have less experience with in a mode that isn't specifically ranked or bots.
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Also to add, a normals game mode would be wonderful for doing challenges like daily rituals and archives without sandbagging your team as a survivor, or throwing the game as a killer. A lot of the survivor tome challenges require you to either punish a team of solos, or coordinate a swf to work with you on it. A normals game mode would help to give BHVR more realistic MMR stats when those doing challenges/achievements/rituals can do so without losing ranked games to get them done.
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I strongly disagree with that assessment, otherwise I'd finally be able to get more than a single kill on Skull Merchant. I've been having a terrible time on her since she came out and the MMR doesn't seem to adapt no matter how many losses I score.
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Ah, the world of M1 killers, where your personal skill as a killer doesn't matter if the survivors are a bit better :/
I've had some good games on Skullie but it is rough, I've had an easier time on freddy (but still a nightmare, pun intended) simply because he actually has some form of mobility, and his dream snares for the hinder at stronger loops. Skullie just has info and if survivors know how to loop M1 killers, which a lot of them do, you are very at the mercy of map RNG and the survivors making some big mistakes.
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5 years and counting too
And that's what i mean with perception of what is decent being skewed. If you view everything below the top players as bad then yeah, i can see why you would think M1 killers are impossible or why matchmaking is is horrible.
But that's not really a realistic way to look at it now is it. Game feels a lot better if you don't downplay every victory you gain cause you think survivors that don't play perfect are bad
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And it doesnt even work.
On my free epic dbd account, I have literally gone against full swf squads in my first 5 matches, while still getting the noob loading screens. 1 perk, against full build swfs.
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I’m not talking about perfection. I’m talking about people who run in a straight line against Nurse, then DC when I down them. These people should have 0 say in game balance.
What does being average in DBD mean? The game mechanics are limited; you either know how to run tiles or you don’t.
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show us if that is true
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I remember the old days withouth MMR, lots of shenanigans among other things.
good times, lol.
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That's a very black and white way to look at. There are loads of steps between knowing to run a tile and don't.
There are people who go to shack and instantly throw the pallet while the killer is miles away (bad)
you have people who know to vault the window 3 times and then go to the pallet, but crumble the moment the killer doesn't follow them in a straight line (beginner)
You have people who are aware of the mindgames and will walk in the center or wait around safe corners to look what the killer is doing before commiting to anything (intermediate)
And you have people who are more aware of the entire map and will run to nearby loops after vaulting shack window and chain them to create gamelosing chases for killers (expert)
By your definition the beginner one who knows how to loop a tile is at peak level
Also this is a bit of a assumption based on you mentioning her and your pfp but do you mostly play nurse by any chance?
If that's the case then can you you really blame me if i don't think your oppinion on m1 killers is as solid as you think it is when you play the one and only killer that has absolutely zero m1 gameplay
She plays a completely different game. And I am willing yo believe you are really good at dead by nurselight but maybe you don't know as much as you think you do about dead by daylight the game the rest of the killer cast plays
Sorry but thinking that certain m1 killer have 60% killrates in top 5% mmr because the mayority of top 5% mmr is bad is pure copium
And with all the mindgames you can learn, learning how to zone people to where you want, learning to judge distance to know what you can and can't make, learning what pallets you can leave up and play around and which ones you can't, etc... thinking m1 gameplay has a low skillceiling is equally as silly
It has a much higher skill ceiling then you think, you're just stuck in the basement unable to find the stairs cause you refuse to turn on the light
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-"It is not common for the matchmaker to expand to the maximum range- most people will have a match long before that can happen."
I suspect that while you believe this to be true it might not be true.
I have no reason to believe that BHVR is being deceitful but I have played other games where the company straight up lied to the players. I'd like to see for my own eyes that the match maker is working right. I'd like to see everyone's MMR after a game is concluded.
My only option is to have faith and blindly believe what you say. I really want to believe you - but there could be some massive bug and it's doing the wrong thing and you don't know.
Sorry but ranks were better than MMR.
Every month ranks reset. Every month you had a chance to start over and didn't have to play every game like you're yanking someone's teeth out for money.
The reset was good for the player base because bad players had a chance to briefly encounter good players and see what strengths the other side truly has.
I will also point out that when we had ranks instead of MMR we did not have the incredibly stupid gen rush/tunneling issue that is plaguing the game right now.
The more survivors gen rush the more killers are forced to tunnel in response.
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MMR is a scapegoat for people overrating their own capabilities.
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I never understood why the couldn’t separate ‘Every’ Killer from each other for the MMR. Thankfully custom matches with bots are finally a thing so I can practice in peace but I was pushing for MMR back then because it was finally going to let me use my unused Killers against low level survivors except my unused Killers were raised up in MMR against my will. So dumb.
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The only good thing about MMR in DBD is, that queue times are still prioritized.
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I also dominate with M1 killers, as I was playing them long before I picked up Nurse, so you’re wrong right off the bat. None of the mind games in DBD are that complicated. You don’t have to be an expert to see that, even through winning mindgames, it takes far too long for an M1 killer to catch a survivor. This is why camping and tunneling are popular; it is literally impossible for basic killers to keep going for chases. The only copium here is you pretending that DBD mindgames have any depth. Everyone knows this game is shallow.
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