lets discuss lobby dodging why is it only the killer's fault and not of equal blame to all players?
edit: i personally don't lobby dodge just want your thoughts
i was recently talking to my cousin who plays in a swf (with 4 bills of the same cosmetic and4 of the same item depending on if they want chases/sabo/bodyblocks ) and is a p100 himself. killers lobby dodge his group and he doesn't care since when a killer finally queues up it is a killer with less experience(hours) in the game.
now i see in the threads that people don't want killers to "lobby shop" when they use their higher prestiges because it causes unfair matchups but i have to ask if you know a killer lobby dodged your queue why doesn't the survivor leave the queue and queue up again for an even match?
lobby dodging is a two way street...the killer can't be blamed for lobby dodging and looking for a new queue (for whatever reason prestige/same costumes/4 of the same item etc.) if in the sake of equal matchmaking the survivors don't do the same.
you want fair matches the answer is right there until either prestige is not shown or lobbies are have a set limit to see which build a player wants to use (with no last minute changes on the survivor side that alone should void the match)
thoughts?
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So you expect me to dodge every time the Killer dodges? Ain't nobody got time for that. Play the lobby you're given ffs.
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Several things contribute to this:
1) Survivors can't see the killer's prestige, cosmetics, power (item) in the lobby. Survivors leaving a lobby are basically blind, or at least are not making an informed 'dropping because I actively see a problem' decision. The killer has all this information right away. Dodging after the match starts is an issue, but not what we're talking about here.
2) There are roughly 4 times as many survivors, the majority of which are solos, and generally short queue times. So chances are good that even if a survivor dodges at the lobby, they get replaced by a similar MMR survivor and the match is basically the same as if the first survivor had stayed.
3) I personally do drop and requeue a lobby *if* I see the killer dodge first, and I encourage the others to requeue also. I have noticably worse games when the killer dodges, which is why I consider lobby dodging to ruin the game for all 5 players.
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I think killers mostly want to dodge SWFs, high prestiges are just a staple of SWFs at this point.
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i just saw the complaining about killers dodging in the threads and it is always their fault...i agree since i don't lobby dodge i just find it a fascinating mindset where only the killer is in the wrong
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higher prestige means more hours but if mmr doesn't increase if you don't beat them does it really matter (besides a possibly one sided game)?
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i wonder if survivors could see the killers prestige what would happen (not the killer themselves just the prestige)
yeah dodging after a match seems to happen when they see what killer they are facing from the screen prompts (they really need to get rid of this it puts stealth killers/nurse at a disadvantage)
how long does it usually take to requeue as a survivor for you on average?
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From my pov the point of having committed to play that match is when matchmaking found you a match and you are in a lobby. Lobby is not "mhhhm, lets see if i want to play that match" - it is so that everyone can, after spending bloodpoints, playing around with cosmetics or builds or whatever people do while waiting for matchmaking to do its thing, get a chance to switch to the configuration they want to use in the match.
So yes, since the killer is the one who backs out of that commitment they are the only one who is responsible/at fault/to blame when it comes to the impact it has on the match the lobby they left will have and the lobby they then load into will have.
And yes, I do think the match should be default cancelled just like when someone fails to load into a match/matchmaking should start over again (actually, I would like the "Leave" button to have the same effect regardless of it being pressed in lobby or in a match -- but I don't think thats feasible).
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When everyone finds a lobby, its usually as fair a match in as reasonable a timeframe the MM allows. When the killer dodges this immediately throws what little accuracy it has out the window. While survivors could leave and look again (not entirely sure if this works mind you), the killer was the one who started the whole mess of shenanigans. Basically it would, as said above, increase wait times to unbearable levels (funnily enough, it would probably increase it to that of the old tested "accurate over time" mmr system)
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The way you ask the question leaves no room to be both honest and not blame killers for leaving a lobby the game assigned them.
So it is the killer's fault for deciding not to play that match.
What you leave out, as most killers don't mention it let alone complain about it is, many survivors lobby shop their own teams.
I had 3 survivors leave a lobby for whatever reason when I signed up as a killer.
Did they wreck the match quality?
I don't know, and I honestly do not care because,
If a person does not want to play the match. I do not want to play that match with them. I want them to go to the match they want.
I have the exact same feeling from the survivors perspective when a killer lobby dodges my team.
So, in reference to your cousin's team described above. I have to be in the right mood to want to play that team. 60 or greater % of my DbD matches are NOT against teams like his(her's). So, if I see his team pop up and I'm not in the mood I can:
Go into the match, roll my eyes and play along to entertain them.
Lobby dodge and find a more normal group.
Go into the match and DC or go AFK.
I personally usually just dodge when I don't want to deal with what the team indicates they'll be presenting.
Ideally, your cousin's team gets their own queue, with greater rewards and everyone is happy.
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One person taking an action does not obligate another to take an action to fix the potential issue that the previous action may have caused.
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Because you don't necessarily always get a weaker killer when the first one dodges. Sometimes you get a stronger one, and i'm fine with that. The game is supposed to be challenging at times. But if others want to mess up their own MMR balancing that's on them, mine is fine the majority of the time. A backfill killer every now and then doesn't bother me, nor does being the backfill survivor myself sometimes.
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As far as I can tell there's no 'priority requeue', so I go back to the back of the line whenever I requeue, just like anyone else.
Queue times vary a bit for me, but I play mostly East Coast NA, in the evenings, so usually only have a 1-2 minute queue, even if the incentive bonus is on killer and the survivor pool is overbooked.
In most 'killer dodged the lobby' scenarios, I'd much rather wait another couple minutes than get stuck in a really crap match that could last 5-45 minutes with the current state of the game and killer backfills.
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of all the things you could possibly "both sides" in this game i think lobby-shopping is the one that is possibly the most ridiculously illogical to try to "both sides" about. i'm genuinely befuddled as to how you think survivors have any role in lobby shopping beyond looking scary to some killers
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Simply the killer has more access to who they will be facing against, while the survivors do not have that information. The killer can check for prestige level, character and cosmetics, items, and profiles, all of which go into a killer's decision to leave the lobby if they do not want to go against certain perceptions they made from the lobby. Survivors can only hide some of those things by switching characters last second before the match begins, not that I really condone that either, and maybe hiding their profiles, but that shouldn't be something they have to do to prevent that. I'm not really sure why the game shows prestige levels in the lobby since from what I have seen, that seems to be the main reason killers dodge lobbies. In terms of matchmaking, I wish they'd find more matches based on the region since it doesn't seem hard to do, and yet I get into many matches that give me bad connections to the servers.
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Do you guys not even notice survivors lobby shopping?
They come in and out of the lobby based on their own team.
Its usually about 25% of my solo matches that I see this.
We have no idea what the backfill does under this condition.
Nor do I really care, but still. It happens. Survivors control it. They have their reasons. I don't care what they are.
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This is probably the most absurd complaint I've seen. You really expect players to leave a match whenever the killer does?
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-"Survivors can't see the killer's prestige, cosmetics, power (item) in the lobby."
Sadly this is not true because DBD has terrible cheat protection.
-"I have noticably worse games when the killer dodges, which is why I consider lobby dodging to ruin the game for all 5 players"
When I play killer I agree that the lobby is usually weaker if multiple people dodged. What to know why? I can easily tell who is solo and who is not. It's just a fact that solo queue players are not as strong as a SWF.
All things equal why would I play against a 4 man SWF? Convince me.
"You mess up the game for others" - too bad..... SWF messes up the game for me.
Why would I play against a lobby with 4 items when I can "shop" around and get a lobby with 0-2 items instead? Lobbies with fewer items are weaker than lobbies with 4 items (all things being equal).
When it comes to high tier players the game is rigged against the killer. DBD isn't balanced for efficient survivors and when I play killer I play around the limitations. So I will definitely dodge any lobby that looks like it might be "Sus".
The ideal lobby I don't dodge is 2 people in a swf and 2 solo players with 1-2 items or 1-3 weak items. I could "not" lobby dodge but then I get more frustrating games and fewer points per hour.
Before we address lobby dodging we need to address : Making the game fair to killer first. A knee jerk reaction that to fix the fact that Nurse and Blight reign supreme over every other archetype would be to give all the "lesser" killers MMR caps. As an example softcap the trapper's MMR at like 1200 MMR. If you keep winning you can go up but you are hardcapped at say 1400 MMR. Do this for all the killers that are not Nurse/Blight.
That way we have the best players always playing the best 2 killers. In the following year you take the time and effort to make every killer in the game within 15% of the power of Nurse and Blight. Then you remove the MMR caps.
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I find most lobby dodging a bit silly. I've had prestige 0s loop me all game and p100s play worse than average, higher prestige is usually better but I find not signficantly. Items are strong but if you're too worried bring good addons and make it equal, if you think they're a swf remember most swfs are friends chilling at night not comp squads. I just feel like somes killers have this intense fear of losing or survivors so much that they'll do eerything in their power to tailor the match to their liking.
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For the last point that is a terrible idea. Every time a killer is buffed, the meta is shaken up you have to change the MMR cap. Viability isn't just fixed it changes on regions and addons so does the soft cap change per region? You also ######### up your data making future changes harder to judge. At that point if you're putting in all this effort it's better to make some tangable change and just improve those killers more directly, rather than a change that requires more work down the line.
Also for the first point, most people aren't cheating and if they are I doubt they care about dodging strong killers.
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-"most people aren't cheating"
You aren't privy to that information. Imagine for a moment someone figures out how to run the game in stretched resolution again. The devs called that a cheat. If all the best players are doing that well that's a problem because the devs think they fixed that. This doesn't even begin to address anything else.
Every killer in the game needs to be viable. What does a killer need to be viable?
- Fast Movement (see Nurse/Blight).
- Strong Antiloop (see Nurse/Blight)
- Fast Downs (see Nurse Blight - get the idea yet?).
For the old killers like trapper you could make them viable with a few tweaks. How do we fix trapper?
- Make him 120% movement speed base . Do this to every killer w/o a movement power. This will give him "weak" antiloop because you cant loop him like you used to be able to and will need to drop pallets early/often.
- Make the Bloody Coil Base kit (injures a survivor on trap disarm). Buff Bloody coil effect : wounded survivors disarming a trap get a deep wound.
- Replace bloody coil effect with new iri addon (pick one): A) Traps cannot be disarmed without a toolbox or the sabotage perk. You can walk into them to disarm them. B) Traps are invisible to survivors except within 1m of their hitbox. When a survivor gets within 1m of a trap it starts to appear slowly with a fade in effect. Quality of life change to other Iri addon : make it so traps armed that you did not place are yellow.
- Restore the hitbox of traps to the 2016 radius. Increase the visual size of beartraps if necessary.
- Make the trapper start with 4 traps in hand. Make the other 4 spawn in an X patter in the middle of the map (not the map edges - #########). Change purple trapper sack to give the trapper +2 traps in hand on game start and +1 trap on the floor in the middle of the "x".
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Not really affected by it since I'm low prestige and only playing in duos, so I'm rarely dodged, but...
If the killer dodges first, why should I have to leave the lobby ? It's annoying, it resets the timer which is usually a bit lengthy on times when killers can afford to lobby shop, and I delay the match of another 3 (2 since my duo would leave with me) survivors who were in my lobby, slowing down the process even more for everyone involved.
I'm not the one who dodged, I shouldn't be inconvenienced for it, and I shouldn't make things worse for the others involved.
It's kind of like saying if a survivor DC'd killer should DC as well to properly reset for all players, nevermind losing their hard earned bp/pips.
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All things equal why would I play against a 4 man SWF? Convince me.If you continually lobby dodge to get the easy games, you'll win, raising your MMR. This will necessitate even more lobby dodging in the future.
It might even lead to a skewed view of the game where you've pushed your MMR via dodging that you think the game design is fundamentally broken.
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-"It might even lead to a skewed view of the game where ... you think the game design is fundamentally broken."
Sorry but that's been a thing recognized by the community for years. Are you familiar with the Marth Experiment? Mclean who was a DBD dev at the time said : "we weren't trying to make a fair game".
Also for the record I play against plenty of SWF teams that bring 2 people on console and 2 people on steam to make it look like they are not a 4 man lobby. I feel pretty certain I've reached the limit of who I can play against.
Me winning or losing is really more of a factor that depends on the map and minor RNG like which generator is placed where.
Two days ago I played an extremely close game on Groaning Storehouse. They broke my three gen setup on that map (which is incredibly hard to do against me - but the RNG was massively in their favor for the generator spawns) around the same time I killed one player. Unfortunately for them I also had 8 stacks of STBFL and most of the good pallets were used as well as all of their items. They had a boon which I pressured a few times and kept them injured/slugged to reset the progress on the remaining generators.
It was a really fun game but I have to think what if I had played that team on a different map? Torment Creek would have been an automatic loss. Father Campbell's chapel would have been an automatic win.
I'm at the point where a lot of the game is decided by maps more than anything else and sometimes it is decided by an iri/purple item addon. I limit who I play against because there is no point in playing against the top 1% elite players who stack every possible option in their favor.
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Actually it's unlikely to raise MMR. The devs have said MMR will increase when you win against survivors/killers who are of a higher MMR than you. If you win against a lower MMR opponent then the game basically says 'well of course you beat the weaker opponent' and your MMR won't increase. But it will still result in the need for more lobby dodging, as the game is designed to offer you more challenging players at times so you have the opportunity to remain within your suitable bracket. So it will keep throwing higher MMR players your way, and you'll have to keep dodging them more and more.
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Ehm do you think it's reasonable that survivors have to watch if a killer dodges to then leave the moment it happens?
There is zero indication of this happening outside of the slash of the killer silently going out. I generaly tab out to watch youtube while waiting for a match to start. Am i to blame for bad matchmaking?
Also the blame isn't just on killers, survivors leave lobbies often too and it creates the same problem.
Do you dodge as killer when you see a survivor leave? And if you do didn't you just create the problem you are trying to fix?
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Small correction, i'm pretty sure your mmr always increases if you win.
The amount it increases varries on how strong your opponents are but it will always increase
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i always wondered what happens on the survivor side since i see this happen from time to time as well...all i can tell is from their prestige number if it is an improvement or not
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Lobby dodging is about wanting easy games. It's not more nuanced than that. People whine about getting bullied while at the same time they will dodge until they get a team full of noobs. The ability to see prestige levels, items, hour count, and cosmetics lets you paint a relatively accurate picture of how sweaty a survivor team is. A team full of 3k+ hour survivors with medkits will probably be a hard game for most killers. It's not a guarantee but it's much more likely to be difficult compared to a game of default cosmetic dwights with low hour counts and no items. At the very least the ability to see prestige levels and hours should be removed. It's not fair for the survivors who end up getting bullied because of lobby shopping.
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Peanits has said previously that you can plateau. I would imagine that consistently dodging perceived swfs, hours of play, items, prestige, etc, and purposely messing with your MMR to be a kind of self-imposed plateau, though obviously I don't know the intricacies of the system.
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if a noed 1k (without hooks) is treated the same way as 3 hooking the same survivor and getting the same 1k that is ridiculous
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The problem with that is looking at mmr from a single match. Mmr looks at all your matches.
1 hooked with noed might be the same as 3 hooks normally (might not, we don't know. I think i heard them mention time was also a factor) but in a avarage of 100 matches the person going for hooks is going to get more then the person relying on a hex totem that shows it's aura to survivors.
One match means very little
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but i mean if a killer only seems to get noed kills without hooks then they get boosted up the mmr ranks...it isn't exactly because the killer was stomping the team out based on skill
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I don't see the issue, since it has happened for 7 years and no one cared much until real recently, which to me suggests some twitch streamer or youtuber made a video/keeps talking about it. There's no fix. What are you gonna do? Ban killers for leaving a lobby? Well, you'd need to equally add that rule to survivors, so no leaving when you see three 5 hour Dwights VPNing from another country, with a 400 ping and mysteriously wearing legacy gear. Also DC penalties exist because DCing in a game ruins the game. No game has started yet, so no game is ruined. Same reason we don't ban someone for DCing during loading. Nothing has started and nothing is lost. What's the other option? Program the game into malware so I can't leave a lobby, can't alt f4 and can't end process?
If the issue is caused due to prestige, then maybe remove that system, as it is causing an issue that was not present for over half a decade.
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You can't blame killers for avoiding an unbalanced match against people using third-party programs to circumvent in-game mechanics.
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Look at it from the survivor point of view too
If a killer wins entirely cause of noed. Should he get weaker survivors, or stronger ones who can deal with noed?
If you made the killer lose mmr when he only wins by killing everyone with noed eventually you'll get a mmr range where there are nothing but noed players and survivors who can't deal with it.
Same with camping, tunneling and any other cheese strat. If a killer wins with these they should go up in rating untill they face people who can deal with it. Regardless of how much "skill" it took
The problem is that many people look at mmr as a system that tells you how good you are while it's just a matchmaking system, nothing more and nothing less. It's a problem the devs kinda created themself by calling it skill based matchmaking first
There is more to matchmaking then skill. A killer who has a 12 hook game with the first dead on 9 hooks should get stronger survivors cause they won so decisively.
A killer that gets a 4k with 4 hooks and camping every one also should get stronger opponents or else they can win every match by camping and never lose
People are too blinded by the word skill, your mmr going up doesn't always mean it's cause of skill and it's not a reward or punishment. Also one of the reasons you can't see your number, cause it really shouldn't matter
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fair points on all of these thanks for your input ^_^...it explains why kills/escapes are used more than hooks
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