Gens should be increased to 100-110s.
Gens go too fast and only way to somewhat control the match as killer is to tunnel/camp someone out or just defend 3 gen area. So gens should be increased im fine ds getting buff or tunneling overall nerfed someway but gens need to go slower.
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If we're going to make gens take longer, then can we make them fun somehow? Because they're super boring and sitting on them can hardly be called "gameplay" as is.
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I don't think the problem is the max 90 seconds at base kit progression, I think the problem is all the ways survivors can shave off up to 60 seconds from that. The other day I saw a video of a build that allows just one survivor to do a gen in 35 seconds by himself. So, the solution would be to simply nerf gen progression bonuses so the min time to do a gen is not 30 seconds, which can be done by using just 1 perk (Prove Thyself) with 3 survivors.
Another solution could be to simply reduce chase time by nerfing "second chances" perks, AKA nerf Endurance so it is not practically a 3º health state, but somehow I don't see this happening.
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Increase the gen time 100%
right now a good team with BNP do their first gen, for free in like 17 sec.
its unhealty.
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What about 99% of other teams? Casual and without BNP?
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wow, sitting on gens for almost 2 minutes waiting for the occasional skillcheck sounds so fun.... such fun interactive gameplay right there
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wow, watching all the gens pop up almost instantly after your 1st chase, such fun interactive gameplay right there.
as not thrilling as it sound, its about solving an existing issue.
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Generator times are fine, the problem is all the builds that let survivors bypass that time. Making generators even longer will only punish the casual players and do little to slow the veteran ones.
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what a surprise more obvious bait
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are you perhaps ... in disagrement?
If so, I would like to hear your bait... argument.
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I think they're better off improving killer powers over increase gen times. stronger killer powers are more fun for killer to play and the survivor is less bored on generators.
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so we can get Eruption and Hex: ruin back? that's would be great actually!
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Yeah, increasing gen times is the last thing I want to see. Improving killer powers would be nice, but the biggest problem is the arms race the devs have going between killer and survivor perks and add-ons. Killers get slowdown perks, survivors get speed-up perks. If one side brings those perks and the other doesn't, the result can be devastating. There's no way to balance for that.
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Honestly, without increasing gen times there is now way killer stands a chance.
gen time right now is obnoxiously low, after like one little chase, gen anywhere between 2-3 can pop its unbelievable. the best case scenario I've seen is 1 gen one down, that economy is unplayable for killer.
Post edited by Spectralfx on0 -
i think the game is balanced around the idea of 4 perks of your choosing. survivor's that run speed-up perks are gen-jockey players. it is inherently play-style. If a player runs deja vu+prove thyself+Friendly competition+Dead hard. That is just their prefer survivor play-style. An alternative gen-jocky build is This is not happening+Stake out+Hyperfocus although i find this play-style a lot harder to use consistently(I think hyperfocus is a bit too difficult for most player to get value of, So i think This not happening perhaps need slight buff). The other gen combination you face as killer is prove thyself+resilience with 99% med-kit heals. I think if player should be able to run whatever perks fit their inherit game-play style. The play-styles get balanced by themselves because of inherit opportunity cost of one of set perks over another set. For example a gen-jocky player is faster at generators but he is unlikely to have access to anti-tunnel perks like Off the record+Decisive strike+Adrenaline. The player is favouring glass-cannon play-style over a more safe alternative.
I think where it gets complicated to balance is items for survivor. the items can create big extremes. Like an entire team can run commodos toolboxes with 4 BNP+4x streetwise+x4 build to last for some really fast games. Not entirely sure how you balance game-changing items. 4 green med-kits with gel dressing+purple/red needles can sometimes be little bit oppressive for the killer to play against. I am not saying you will play against these game-changing items every single game but those combinations do exist. I have won teams with these crazy combinations but you rely on survivor to not be too good at the game.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on0 -
I agree increasing gen times would lead to more boring gameplay for survivors, but it is true that rn it kind of forces killers to always bring slowdown perks if they want to stand a chance. Given that it's a matter of 4 killer perks and 2 add-ons vs 16 survivor perks and 8-addons, it can lead to absurd outcomes, like having 2 gens pop by the time you have downed one survivor, at the very best.
What I think should happen is balance the effect of perks, toolkits and add-ons, so what still grants the biggest boost to repairing is working together, and even then I would cap it. Like, 2 survies working together, x1.5 repair speed, 3 survies x1.8, 4 survies x2. And I don't think any gen could be done by one person in less than half the base time by any means.
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What I found is that a somewhat balanced (neither side is stomping), dynamic match (no excessive use of rushing, slowdown, camp, tunnel, FL/Bodyblocking) lasts around 9 minutes. Of those nine minutes about one minute is spent on hook, one minute is spent healing/being healed and about three minutes are spent holding M1 on a gen. That already is more than half the matchtime you spend "doing" things that are meant to time you out in a gentle way (as in: technically you're doing things but really it's just you having to sit somewhere so the killer has time to chase someone else down). - Increase the gen time even further and you spend two thirds of the match not actually playing the game. - That's just too much (and imo where the immense dissatisfaction with gen slowdown comes from, especially when a killer coming to your gen doesn't relieve you from your timeout but is pretty much the exact same as missing 2-4 skill checks since the killer just leaves again to kick the next gen).
If anything I'd like the "spaghetti times" of gens to be dealt with. You can neither speed them up massively, nor can you slow them down massively. So that matches don't last anywhere between 3 minutes and 30 minutes but somewhere between 7 minutes and 17 minutes. [Safe for some extreme cases e.g. where a killer is able to Lethal-Pursuer-Snowball right at the beginning of the match, or a dedicated rush-swf with four builds that are meant for one single thing: fastest possible gens. While some killers can do that snowball thing somewhat reliably with the corresponding mindset and build, it's not representative of killers as a whole - or even just of that killer. And the same goes for survivors; while they can do that somewhat reliably with the corresponding mindset and build these kinds of squads aren't representative of survivors - or even squads - as a whole. ]
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Even as Killer-Main, I have to disagree. Gens are the most boring part of the survivor-gameplay. Increasing their time does not solve any issue. The much bigger issues are Toolboxes and a lot of Gen-Progression-Speed-Bonus-Perks like Prove Thyself etc.
I dont mind brown Toolboxes, I mind the green Commodious or the purple one, the BNPs, the Extra-Charge-Addons etc. These are more problematic than the actual gen-time.
Since I play the game (Artist-Chapter), It was always Gen-Regression vs. Second Chance-Perks. Always. And this will never change.
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Is this surprising for you?
You start the match against 4 survivors. If u dont use Corrupt, they mostly spawn at a gen. If u are unlucky, they spawn at 3 different gens, so they start working the perfect way: Three Gens at the same time, so 90sec for 3 gens. You will find one of them and chase them, so its absolutely normal to lose 1-2 gens for your first hook. Deadlock saves 1 of the two being completed, but it only buys time.
To solve this early-game-advantage the survivors have, you want survivors to spawn together, unfortunately this offering is on survivor-side. But this has nothing to do with the gen-speed alone.
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I disagree,
If it's at the point of "oh just run these teachables that are behind a paywall", it means the issue is fundamental in nature.
People pay to play, and on top of it some are saying that killer should pay to stand a chance to win?
Saying that killers starting every games on their back foot is "normal" is exactly what fuels this issue further.
Increasing gen times would help tremendously balance this game now that gen regress perks have been nerfed into the ground.
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Last time they increased gen times they nerfed gen regression.
What do you think is going to happen if they increase it again.
Even when they are reaching levels of obnoxiously slow that survivors bring more gen progression perks.
Stop messing with gen times, they are already barely at the level of tolerable.
And i don't want doing gens under pentimento to become base kit. It sounds insufferable.
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I'd rather have generators be made more "difficult" or engaging to do. Something that actually needs survivor attention than just waiting for a soundclue of skillchecks.
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I agree. So far every time extension they’ve added hasn’t been enough in the long run, so I think a more drastic change is needed but in turn we’d have to make gens more interesting
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I think most people agree the speed at which gens can be done is an issue, I guess where most people disagree is the solution.
I tend to feel that the core issue is two fold. First is the start of the match with spawns and second is average chase length.
Rather than gen speeds being increased I’d rather them address it by fixing these issues.
We need a built in early game collapse, like a Corrupt at base kit. The start of the game with spawns and no pressure developed causes early gens to be near impossible to stop for your first chase.
Next is that chases are lasting way too long between second chance perks extending them and loops in general being way too safe. Essentially this boils down to most the killer roster being unable to even if played perfectly, accurately pressure enough to realistically slow gens down. This is also heavily exacerbated by maps being way, way too large on average to properly pressure.
Forgot to mention it but this lack of ability to pressure is also heavily exacerbated by injures being meaningless as self healing between medkits and CoH is out of control. It prevents hit and run pressure from actually slowing gens down and getting survivors off gens to heal each other. Healing needs to force survivors off gens to heal each other.
Now this is all the idealistic solution to solving the core problem. However this would be a perfect world and realistically this would be a lot of work for the devs to fix. So while I don’t think just increasing gens times is the real best solution to the problem it would be the most realistic in terms of the easiest and quickest fix.
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I just don't know if the game can take another gen time increase. Just the reaction from bhvr after this 90 sec gens also makes me believe so.
Like we had for years tons of gen defense/regression perks and almost no gen rush perks.
Suddenly gens take 90 sec. In almost a year we had no new gen defense perks but had:
- Hyperfoccus
- PTB Better than new
- Quick Gambit
- Potential Energy
- Friendly Competition
- Overzellous (if they were already thinking of the update before this perk came out)
I don't think the game can take another gen time increase, it would just be too much at that point.
I hope for smarter and more elegant solutions.
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we only talk about extremes in these forums buddy. Every survivor match is against comp wannabe blight/nurse with broke addons and every killer match is against seal team 6 swf who communicate with each other via hivemind
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True, true...
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You said it like it is the wrong thing to do. Games need to be balanced around the "extreme" end of the bar, because if you balance it taking in count the bottom of the barrel those who are above that would crush the other side. So, the talk should be around those "extremes", not the "casual 99%" that don't have any intention to be better at the game and blames anything but themselves when they lose.
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Sitting on gens is boring enough as it is. We need more objectives to slow games down
Even mini-games while doing gens would be more fun or having to find gen parts to complete generators or finding a manual
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that post is right on the money, couldn't have better layed it out myself!
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But dude, how are the casuals survivors going to T-bag the killer with a 4 man escape after giving in a perfeclty distributed 8 hooks to the killer after pre-dropping all the pallets and running the windows dry?
for real, how are they going to take five step to the next god pallet if you don't give one to them at every corner?
How are they going to chase you to a deadzone with a CoH totem and bait the chase switch and cycle the killer forever for their YT/Twitch killer fail compilation?
think of the skillfull content creators out there man! /sarcasm.
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You mean it should be available to 1% of playerbase? Well done! Welcome to BHVR planning team! I'm sure it would be very beneficial.
I have 2K hours and still escape 1 time of 10 (don't have any problems with killer, though). Probably I'm that poor guy that don't have any intention to be better and blame anything but themselves. Like too fast gens, t-bags, broken map layout, DH, comms,.... Wait.... Oh, right....
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Imagine if Brand New Parts were their own item instead of an add-on, and they could only be found in trials, maybe in chests or lockers.
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I’d like more elegant solutions as well as I was referencing in my post, I just don’t know how realistic it is. The amount of work that would be for the devs is huge. I feel like we’re almost more stuck going for an easy solution rather than the best solution. If you have an easier solution than the ones I mentioned earlier I’m open to it.
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💯 agreed! It’s a big issue for The Onyro when gens are done in 30 seconds because her power doesn’t turn on at the start of the game until around 30 seconds anyways.
it’s way too long for a killer to go without their power imo.
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Then you are the perfect example of why you can't balance a game taking in count the casual players. If they balanced the game taking in count your skill level so you can escape more times, the people that are escaping 70-80% of the time would escape even more as they would have it more easy. I think it isn't so hard to understand.
And one thing is talking and giving feedback around genuine problems the game may have, other thing is losing because you can't or won't do better and complain about the balance. For example: I go against the Nurse like I go against any other killer, she use her power to teleport to me and hit me everytime I want to loop her at a pallet. The only conclusion is that Nurse power is broken and need to be nerfed, not that I need to learn how to play against her and get better at the game.
So, you people need to stop using the "casual SoloQ players" as an argument for BHVR to do or not do needed balance changes (like the ones being discussed in this thread) thinking it is a valid point to make.
Post edited by Batusalen on1 -
gen speed is fine, its just perks and maps that need adjusted imo
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I never said that. My point is: gen-times are not the problem, the early game, ENG-based, is the problem. If survs spawn together, its less problematic. You akways lose a gen at the start and I dont mind that.
If I had something to say, I would put in a short Corrupt Intervention Basekit (20sec would already enough).
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except, gen time IS the issue.
and perhaps you haven't worded it in that specific way, but I fail to see the difference.
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For some reason, very shortsided point of view. If game is balanced around top-tier tournament players, who will play it? It will die faster than mayfly. Good example: Quake Champions. What needs to be done is finetune MMR, because that is the only way to match good players and casual ones with their respective opponents.
More of that, giving feedback is absolutely great, but how you determined what "complain" and what is a "real problem"? In your very example with Nurse you say there no need to improve? Why? I saw how Ayrun loop Nurse like there is no tomorrow. Another example: OP cry that gens fly and he need to camp and tunnel. I clearly see that author cannot see reason and consequence (gens flying because survivors has nothing else to do against camper). Better watch on YT how killers deal on high MMR, for example, even against genrush squads (real genrush, not what many talking about, most of cry-killers never seen real genrush squads).
And finally, why "we people" (I don't know who is "we" and is it some disregarding address) need to stop ustin "casual"? I'm not a tournament player, never will be, I bought a game and I want to play. Where is designated requirements that game only available for pro-top-tier players? And why it is not applied to other side?
So balance on extremes when on high MMR killer (where he doesn't belong, but skyrocketed there with cheesy tunnel/camp) get gens done in 3 minues to 10 minutes, on low MMR gens will never be done. 95% of players won't dedicate 10K hours to be able to play. Very silly idea to kill the game.
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I mentioned in another post of adding a new entity that would block fully repaired generators for 5 minutes or however it needs to be to be balance and then killers can damage and regress that generator to slow down the match and make survivors use perks or items like the map to remember and head back to those generators. I can see an counter agreement being that this would cause the match to last forever but you can add features like those generators get a haste to repair speed and a slower regression speed.
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Sorry, but I'm not going to answer the sheer amount of strawmans and "off topic" arguments you wrote there. I would only say:
but how you determined what "complain" and what is a "real problem"?
In this forum? Whoever wants to give an argumented opinion of why it is a real problem or not. For real? BHVR, or at least is what they should do, not just listen to the cries of people.
gens flying because survivors has nothing else to do against camper
Gens always fly the moment 4 survivors, SWF or not (thanks to the Status HUD Icons) coordinate a little to do them, more so if some of them bring gen progression perks and tools. And this have being one of the biggest issue with the game since at least two chapters now. That's why it is a problem.
If game is balanced around top-tier tournament players, who will play it?
First, nobody said "top tier tournament" balancing. What I said is not balancing it around casual players. And would play it the people that really enjoy the game and want to adapt to get good at it, not the entitled players that want the game to adapt for them so they can play however they like and still win.
95% of players won't dedicate 10K hours to be able to play
Nobody said you have to need to employ 10k hours to start being good at the game. But even now you need to have a certain skill level if what you want is win games, and if you don't work to gain it it's your fault and only you. And that wouldn't be a problem if those people didn't want for the game to compensate for them not wanting to be good at it, like I already said (in reality it wouldn't be a problem if BHVR stopped listening to this kind of players, but oh well).
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That would not only solve nothing, as right now survivors can do the 5 gens in those 5 minutes, but only generate more problems and frustrations. It will be like letting survivors revive a fully sacrificed survivor. Sorry, but not a good idea.
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Appreciate the comment! Im just tossing out weird and new ideas but I guess you could also make it so when a survivor fully repairs a generator it is blocked by the entity for a few minutes or so to slow down the game, I don’t know how good of an idea this would be with all the killer perks that already block generators
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The problem with DBD right now is that you cant really defend generators vs efficient survivors (especially in a SWF).
A better solution would be to heavily limit how quickly you can hasten them. Example : gens take 90 seconds. No matter what perk or item you bring you can only make them finish 9 seconds faster. After that your prek/item deactivates.
An even better solution would be to keep generators at 90 seconds of progress but give the killer 1:1 generator regression base kit. If a player is killed then the killer loses 25% of their regression rate.
And a better solution still would be to let the killer kick finished generators. Require the survivors to have 5 generators powered to power the doors. In order to prevent the killer from kicking the last generator over and over you could do something like once the gates are powered they have power for 30 seconds. Then the killer could kick the generator and make the survivors get it to 100% progress to escape.
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Of course you won't because you already start to contradict yourself. Like "First, nobody said "top tier tournament" balancing", but in your first comment your words was "Games need to be balanced around the "extreme" end of the bar".
To stop this fruitless arguing, I just leave something to think about, mostly for other people. Getting better at the game is super great and it should be that way. But not to the tournament level. And definetely it shouldn't be onesided. I have 1.5K hours, if Steam don't lie, and I have very big problems as survivor. Sadly, half of the time I have to play survivor, every match is always a tryhard pain and complete unfun experience with win rate 1/10. How many hours I need more to git gud? 1000? 10000? Why killer experience is quite the opposite: manageble, fun and controllable? SWF, bully squads, coordinated teams, you name it. Yeah, I lose sometimes, but who said I have to win 100% of time. Maybe killer-players should be better too?
Main idea is: now killers getting to upper-middle MMR (either by just playing or skyrocket by abusing cheap tactics) and stuck with skilled players because they don't belong there. If we imagine that BHVR will go crazy and buff killers, it will end up in getting ALL killers to Ayrun/JRM level, and they will still be complaining "why cannot I make a single hit? It's so unfair, make killer speed 6m/s!" Where on casual (aka MAJORITY of playerbase) level it will be literally unplayable on survivor side. It mostly is already, what I see.
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Dude, reread the comments and you would see who talked about "extremes" and what he, and then me, was referring too. The only one that said that the "extreme" is "top tier tournament" was you, and now you want me to justify something that you said. I said what I said, I keep saying the same, I didn't contradict myself in any point.
Then you proceed to again spew random things without any coherence and thinks you made some grand point here, when in reality you only have shown your bias. Who said the killer experience is "manageable, fun and controllable" (whatever that means) and why it has anything to do with what I said? And yes! Killers should also get better. What makes you think that I wasn't referring to also killers with anything I said? And your experience is a "tryhard pain and complete unfun" one because you are playing a competitive game (NOT in a tournament sense, but in the PvP "playing to win over the other side" sense) and people are going to play to win and get better at the game! And you should be making your own fun, not depending on others to worry about you having it! Crazy, I know.
Seriously dude, do what you said and simply "stop this fruitless arguing", because you are only making it worst with each post.
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Maybe add more skillchecks to gens, but the extra skillchecks won't offer gen progress, just bloodpoint. These extra skillchecks can be made to only have a good success zone, not a great success zone, so that generator perks that rely on skillchecks won't be OP by getting a great skillcheck every 7 seconds. These extra skillchecks can be unique like the ones from the wiggle mechanic where you ping pong back and fourth, and these could have custom penalties, such as if you fail skillcheck, the gen will explode, and will lose progress and you drop your item from hand, meaning you will have to stop and grab your item from ground. Or the gen will explode but cause no progress penalty, but it will be repaired slower for 10-20 seconds
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