Tunneling can never be solved

Giving the unhooked survivor permanent zero collision until they perform a conspicuous action or until the killer hooks a different survivor would solve the tunneling issue. Not active after gens are powered of course.

However we can’t implement something like this until tunneling is no longer required.

The killer can’t even touch them much less tunnel them with zero collision. IE as soon as he’s unhooked he could literally just stand there and the killer couldn’t do anything to them.

To be nice... There is no other reason it's usually best play you can do to win. But if you dominate the game and get downs quickly it's not neccessary. Few times it might even backfire and you get looped 5 gens if you chose wrong target. It's important to know when to use it.

Personally reason why I avoid hard tunneling because I don't find it fun. I play both sides so I hope to have good games to earn bp and if all I do is to tunnel as killer all I should expect as survivor is getting tunneled... So my mindset is first just try get hooks and debending how the gens and chases go I might use strats if needed.

Also I don't want to sweat always as I have noticed that only getting 3-4K will put you agains't sweatiest teams and agais't them you have to tunnel to even have chance. So personally I go for 1-2K and 9-10 hooks mostly. Occasionally I still take 3-4K.

Yes it is Maps... Spawns for everything need to be looked at

But it's also base Gen regression VS. base Gen progression

Base Gen regression is .25 charges per second and only Call Of Brine and Overcharge change that

Base Gen Progression is 1.0-2.2 and Prove Thyself, Toolboxes ETC change that

How about they fix those things before introducing new things

I agree it'll never be gone. People have been tunnelling for as long as I've been playing. It will always happen. IMO though, best thing BHVR can do is just implement more perks to help counter it. So that way, killers still have the option but it becomes a lot riskier because they dont know if the survivor theyre focusing on has certain perks up their sleeves. Plus then it's ultimately up to the survivors to choose how important to them it is to counter it and whether to dedicate part of their build to it.

I honestly don't see tunnelling a huge amount in my games, so for me it'd be a waste of perk slots. But I see alot of people claim they get tunnelled multiple times in a row, so for them it'd be worth it. And on the plus side - more builds with perks addressing strats like that, means less gen speed perks being used. So win win.

Not only is it the easiest/laziest way to win, it's also the most instinctual, lizard brained thing to do. Just secure your kill; it's probably the base instinct for anyone dropped in the game.

Add to that the fact many people just get tilted and decide that even if everyone else gets out, you're not going to.

For those reasons, tunneling is never going away. It's more a player issued than a game design flaw.

You're not wrong. However it's not like you need the best survivors in the game to absolutely stomp half the killer roster. Especially weaker killers can never be as fast in progressing their objective as some survivors are. Take Freddy for example. There are groups that will relentlessly gen rush you and end the game in under 5 minutes. How can a Freddy ever hope to compete with that? Tunneling could MAYBE make it a bit easier but at the end of the day these survivors don't even need to be incredible in chase. Simply holding Shift + W and pallet camping would buy them enough time to win.

My point is that these 'Low-Mid skill survivors' can easily beat half the killer roster with their preset loadouts. It doesn't matter, if the killer is played by a new player or killer veteran. They simply have no right plays to make (other than hoping to defend a 3 gen).

That's pretty creative. Though I'm not sure how the devs would balance that. You'd have freshly unhooked survivors throwing themselves at the killer every game in the hope the killer 'tunnels' them out.

I like the idea but from a balancing point of view this would be a nightmare (I think).

-"killer has never been easier than it is now, and yet tunnelling is at an all-time high."

Killer is not strong right now. The hud changes massively tilt the game if everything else were fine (it's not). The 6.0 patch caused Otz to start tunneling and right now Truetalent is playing killer by request and otherwise plays survivor.

-"Tunnelling needs to be nerfhammered into the ground."

Let me guess - you are one of those players that think it's fine for survivors to tunnel generators but bad when killers do it? Tunneling needs to be removed from the game for BOTH sides. Most people don't consider the killer's fun. It's not fun to lose 2/5 or 3/5 of your objectives in the first chase.

Why do killers tunnel?

1. Because survivors tunnel gens.
2. Gen speeds are too fast relative to chase speeds when we look at high skilled play. Only Nurse/Blight really have much of a chance.
3. Base kit borrowed time encourages more tunneling. I know that doesn't make sense but that is what happens.
4. Map sizes overall are unfair unless you are playing Nurse/Blight.
5. Because you get nothing for going for 4 different people as part of the base kit.

It's not some narrative it's very simple.

Consider what do you get if you get 33% of a generator finished? You get nothing if the generator resets. Imagine a killer asking the survivors to get all 7 generators to 33% before trying to get one generator before 66% progress. It's ridiculous right? Well it's foolish to ask the killer not to tunnel.

You need to give the killer something better than tunneling to discourage it.

Stop dodging the point: The situation has improved for killers past 6.1., and tunnelling went -up-, not down.

That first chase has three survivors working on gens for a total of 300% progression speed. As soon as that first hook happens, that goes down to 100%, because you'll be chasing one, one's going for unhook/heal, and only one is left on gen. Stop getting hung up on the first chase.

This is part of the problem: Competent killers understand that the first gen makes practically no difference. Neither does the second. It's the later ones that will make or break the game.

You're making a stink over losing those two first generators, but how does the rest of the game progress for you? Because plenty of matches have one hook at 2-3 gens done, and then STILL end in a 4K. You're taking a tiny part of the game and going 'that's unfair', and you're throwing the rest of the picture out.

Yes, you lose gens during your first chase. Everyone does. Yet somehow, everyone else is still getting kills, even without tunnelling, but you are the one struggling.

That's funny, because the kill rate is HIGHER at top 5% MMR than the total average. So it seems like -most- killer players actually outpace the survivors they're matched with.

Just not you.

Honeydoodle, if survivors are 'tunnelling' a generator, the killer wins. If they're all playing orbiter around a gen that they are desperate to finish, you have all the pressure and control you need because that gen is not getting finished while you're on top of it.

This is the entire problem: Your demands for a 'fair game' are getting more and more outlandish as the discussion goes on. Survivors can't do gens during the first chase. Survivors can't finish gens. They can't be allowed to power the exit gates. You just keep dropping the bar for what you consider an 'unfair' game. No matter what you get, you will find something new to complain about, and we'll be right back here.

You know my decision. You know what I want the game to be aimed towards. The only difference between you and me is that you think survivors should not have any chance at victory.

Here's the problem with everything you're arguing: YOU position yourself as the sole arbiter. You say I'm inconsiderate, but you fully disregard everything beyond your own limited experience. YOU think that YOU should be the one who, singlehandedly, gets to determine whether the game is fair, whether the game is slow enough.

Say you implement everything YOU desire, and survivors get slowed down enormously, and you get in a chase with someone who massively outplays you, what's to stop YOU from failing to take the L on getting outplayed and instead just ruining the game for everyone else? Again?

This is a gunfight. You and I are both tired of it, but whereas I'm perfectly willing to toss the gun out the window, you want to keep that gun in your back pocket, 'just in case'.

No. We already know killers will just go back to tunnelling at the slightest inconvenience. Literally anything can be used as 'justification' for tunnelling, as you yourself are demonstrating. You need to be stripped of that toy, not just leave the entirety of the game exclusively in your hands with a half-hearted promise of 'I won't abuse it, trust me'.

6.1. told me enough.

I would argue that the BT basekit changes have definitely helped. They sure as hell haven't nerfed tunneling enough, but it definitely helped. Off the Record as well is a nice help against tunneling. But it' so frustrating that DS still hasn't been buffed back to 5 seconds stun duration.

I would also argue that the solo queue buffs certainly have helped survivor, and have made killer, on average, slightly more challenging again. Certainly not the big difference that some people claim it has made, but it has made an impact for sure. This is also noticeable through queue times, which have become longer for survivor again.

I do agree that tunneling and camping need to be nerfed, there is no way around that. If you buff killers in other ways, making their fair playstyle more viable, tunneling and camping need to be nerfed as well, otherwise there will always be people that will resort to those tactics because they give them easy wins.

In the end we need both. We need nerfs to tunneling and camping, and buffs to killers fair playstyle. The most optimal way to do this is to balance maps properly, right now the game still has a lot of survivor sided maps. Though some early game slowdown would also work, however it would still require map balance, but now BHVR would have to look into both maps that would still be survivor sided, and maps that would become killer sided. Personally, I just hope BHVR starts looking at all their unbalanced maps and makes them fairer. And then, while doing so, they also need to implement more nerfs to tunneling and camping.

Only nerfs to camping and tunneling without compensation for killer wouldn't work though, I am positive, considering queue times. Survvor queue times would become insufferable I fear.

"-I would argue that the BT basekit changes have definitely helped."

Base kit BT would have been fine if killers got base kit deadlock or corrupt. One said gets tunneling protection and the other side did not. That made the perk shake up reduce killer power overall vs SWF.

BT also makes me feel like I need to tunnel more now because survivors are just that much safer.

-"The situation has improved for killers past 6.1., and tunnelling went -up-, not down."

It clearly did not because that patch made Otz start tunneling. Many killer mains went from I will tunnel if the survivors behave a certain way to: I will tunnel the first person hooked no matter what. You are not a killer main. You are telling me how my games play out with no knowledge of what happens in them.

The Hud display made everything just absolutely gross. And then they gave survivors gen progress/heal percentages and it became absolutely ridiculous.

SWF gives me somewhere between 4-12 perks worth of information depending on the team. Are we just going to say killer gets 8 perk slots now? I would be ok with this but you will hate how that plays out.

-"Competent killers understand that the first gen makes practically no difference. Neither does the second."

No this is how a survivor main thinks. You need to sit down and play a few thousand hours of killer. Then maybe you will actually play 500 games against extreme try hards and understand how terrible it feels right now playing killer.

Breaking a three gen is the equivalent of killing one player. Tunneling needs to stop for both sides or neither.

"the kill rate is HIGHER at top 5% MMR than the total average. So it seems like -most- killer players actually outpace the survivors they're matched with."

The devs have always gathered poor statistics. I asked their stat guy two questions back in 2018 and his mind was completely blown. He said the answer to one of my questions would take a month or more to figure out. This was also a time when the devs said : swf gives no advantage. Bad data collection gives bad conclusions.

We have never had data that looks at when downs happen vs when gens get completed. We don't ever really get to look at the "why".

Stop projecting that I am bad at killer. I played three games last night and 2/3 were 4ks. One player got a hatch that spawned about 2m too close for me to punch him and pick him up before he could hop in. You cannot assume : the game is fine because I got 11 kills in 3 games. Multiple players from those games told me : I sucked at the game. This is funny because the people saying this were in games where I had an ironclad three gen that was never going to get broken. They didn't like how I played the game (forcing an attrition win) and wanted me to play the game on their terms where I would lose quickly.

Simply put: the game was more fun back many years ago where we didn't have this gen before friends attitude.

-"if survivors are 'tunnelling' a generator, the killer wins"

I can't begin to explain how this single sentence shows how little you know about the game.

-"Survivors can't do gens during the first chase."

I never said that. Losing one gen in the first chase would be fine because that is the weakest pressure point for the killer. Losing two or three will always drive killers to tunnel. It's just a function of game mechanics because if you have one player dead, one player slugged/hooked then the gens slow to a crawl as you are chasing one player. The game pace needs to slow down. You want it to be fast for one side but want to make the other side pump the brakes. This is not logical or fair.

-"you think survivors should not have any chance at victory."

I think you lack some degree of reading comprehension if you think that is true. The survivors should not be able to finish a majority of their objective after one chase. It's far too easy to trade one hook state for one generator. You know this and that is why killers tunnel one person out.

-"Literally anything can be used as 'justification' for tunnelling, as you yourself are demonstrating."

The entire last portion of your reply is a nonsense rant. I want tunneling prevented for both sides. You want tunneling but only when it's generators and not survivors. There is no reason not to tunnel generators as a survivor. Knowing that - if the survivors tunnel gens then the killer loses if he does not tunnel a survivor. See the problem? It's ok I know you don't.

I'm not interested in having more conversation with you because you want the game to only be fun/fair for one side. Killer should desire not to tunnel because there is a better reward. If you don't want that as a goal then you want the killer to continue removing the first player hooked from the game every time. It's really that simple. Make your choice.

-"balancing maps will encourage more killer players to not tunnel."

This is true but needs a caveat. Small maps generally speaking are more fair to killer because you can naturally find someone working on a generator while you are chasing someone else. This never happens on large maps because there is too much free space.

Looking at the corn maps there is one map that is fair : Abattoir. It has a decent size at 8,704m. Does that mean small maps are fair? Sadly that's not true. The game is 9088m but it's only fair if you are playing a killer that can hit over pallets, instantly break them or ignore them (Huntress/Nemesis/Nurse/Blight/etc).

Even coal tower is not a "fair" map (8448m) because there are too many resources in close proximity. It allows for too much looping before a pallet needs to be used. Overall Coal tower would be more fair if the resources were more spread out toward map edges so that running to a loop put you "away" from most of the other loops. Or imagine if there were more vault gyms and fewer pallet gyms. Imagine if the pallets were a valuable link that might allow you to chain from one gym to the other but those were the only regular pallets available.

Overall DBD has too many pallets that completely shut off a killer's ability to get a hit. The idea : you must break this pallet or I can run around it indefinitely - should happen about once or maybe twice rarely on a map.

Hawkins was a wonderful map. It was small and had mostly fair pallets with only a few god pallets. Why did we lose the ability to make maps like that?

"no way to fix tunneling" "no way to remove tunneling" "tunneling is unavoidable"

what if you gave the unhooked person 5 stacked hit protections that each last 120 seconds, 50% speed boost, 3 decisive strikes, perfect stealth, body block immunity, & all of this base kit, but it goes away when conspicuous action?

You could also make it so that when you hook the same person twice every other survivor gets a stacking action speed boost to everything.

You could also make it so that killers that tunnel someone out of the match lose all their blood points IDK my point is you CAN fix tunneling but BHVR either don't want to or know how. You might say my suggested changes are overkill, you would be wrong, the only players affected are the players that tunnel. literally just dont tunnel people and you wouldn't have to deal with a 10 seconds decisive strike stun.

Tunneling is more frequent than it used to be.

That tells you that there was a factor of the game that dissuaded tunneling more than the current state of the game, that killers won't absolutely tunnel every chance they get, that it's a reaction to changes in game balance.

Hooks over kills, is true, would disuade tunneling.

Guess what used to encourage hooks over kills? The old BBQ & Chilli. Killers have often cited it as a secondary objective that they didn't minding losing the 4K in order to acheive four stacks of BBQ.

Bring that sort of mechanic back, with other similar ones, and you'll see a reduction in tunneling.

It's not an absolute.

As long as free will exists so will tunneling, stop complaining. (Not directed at you, tunneling threads are pointless)