I Just Now Realized Something
Coulrophobia is going to be insane for camping when/if 24 second healing is introduced.
Think about it like this, Survivors will be forced to stay out of the Killer's Terror Radius if they need to heal, which means they have to waste time to try and find a safe spot to heal where they wont be affected by it.
With 24 second heals, 48 seconds is needed for two heals, and that additional time wasted from Coulrophobia can definitely cause your average SoloQ player to reach second stage, since they only have a 12 second time window and Coulrophobia wastes that time.
At the very least, if 1 Survivor is healed, it can forced hook trades with little to no effort involved. Healing perks will become a definite must for Survivors, especially SoloQ.
Camping is going to be insane, same with tunneling, and everyone is going to probably do it anyways since generator speed-up remained untouched (and making the game a 3v1 is optimal anyways).
Overall this PTB and midchapter is going to be hell if BHVR doesnt not actually listen to feedback from the community. Altruistic Healing should remain 16 seconds, Generator Repair buffs need a nerf, and Engravings never needed a change.
Comments
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If the killer is camping and not moving you know exactly where they are and can run in a straight line away from them out of the 32 meter radius. You can also run bite the bullet to essentially negate the perk entirely and remain inside of the terror radius
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Mangled and perks like Coulrophobia and Pentimento will 100% have to be looked into before the update goes live. And camping will also need to be nerfed in some way. But I do think the nerf to healing is a good change.
I like the changes that we are getting, but BHVR seems to overlook certain problems that such changes can cause, not addressing them as well.
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The issue is the short time window to heal two Survivors, you only have 12 seconds to make an unhook before the Survivor reaches second stage. Healing Perks, Reassurance, and Kinship are going to be necessary if people decide to use this strategy.
I dont think many people will bring this perk, nor will people use this strategy often, but I think it has the potential to be nasty, especially if SoloQ players arent readily bringing a build to counter it.
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I think nerfing self-healing specifically was the way to go, and having two Survivors waste time to heal one another should be incentivized heavily, especially since it makes them easier to pressure instead of having them all split apart.
I do hope that anti-healing is addressed with the PTB and update, I really do, just we are really left in the dark considering what information the Developer Update, so you can tell where this is coming from at least.
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If I’m being quite honest… up until this point my build was typically running forced penance. I’ve found terror radius perks are pointless.
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you might think that the one who aproves the decisions has no idea about his game. but maybe he himself would like to say a few words about the ideas behind all the changes.
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I'm sorry, what? Coulrophobia reduces heal speeds by 50%. Bite the bullet doesn't even completely negate missing a skill check because of the increased speed.
Anyone running Coulrophobia is 1000% bringing sloppy butcher, or some other add-on variant for mangled/hemmhorage. So missing a skill check still regresses your heal progress.
Your only option is to heal outside the terror radius. Even assuming you start outside, and know to avoid the anti heal, and already know the killer is camping, AND the killer forgot to equip sloppy butcher...
Healing both survivors from OP's scenario takes 48 seconds, and since you're at least 32m away from the killer at hook, getting to the hook takes a minimum of 8 more seconds. You have 4 seconds to secure the save in the killer's face before they hit the next hook stage.
If the killer has half a brain cell and brings both Coulrophobia and sloppy, it's 68 seconds instead. And that's playing around Coulrophobia perfectly, with kindred knowledge that they're camping at all.
Edit: spelling
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Using 4 Gens perk and not healing. Killers will play with 2 perks.
I dont think Coulro and Sloppy will be meta.
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Don’t give them something else to whine about.
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I disagree, I think a general healing nerf combined with heavy nerfs to the best regression perks is a helthy direction for the game, especially since it will make 3 gen much less of a common strategy. Altruistic healing will still be encouraged because medkits will have more limited uses now.
I think the changes are looking good, I just think they are a bit overkill. I would buff PR's regression to 20%, and reduce the healing time to 20 seconds. I think those values would be better. I would also not be surprised to find out that BHVR has 20 second healing times ready as a back up plan. But I doubt they are going to revert the healing nerf.
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I am not the one who approves these changes, but I am positive the idea here is to take some of the slowdown that the strongest slowdown perks provide, and add it into the basekit in a healthier way. Nerfing healing means killers can slow down the game more in a skillful way, by actually going for chases and spreading damage, and nerfing slowdown perks means killers can't just 3 gen like crazy anymore.
The execution might not be perfect, especially since certain compensation changes are missing, but the direction that BHVR is taking DBD in with this update is a good one in my opinion.
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I hope everyone likes Sloppy/Thana on 24 second heals and 90 second gens, because you're going to be seeing it every other game minimum. The devs made Forever Freddy basekit. Absolutely brilliant.
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You dont even need Coulrophobia. Camping will be stronger with the changes to healing, simply because it will take longer for other Survivors to reset. If you want to save someone who is being camped you usually need at least 2 Survivors to have a chance that it does not result in a trade. So if both are injured you are set at 48 seconds of healing while the Hook Stage is 60 seconds. It is impossible to get someone like this in first phase. And this is without Mangled.
So the healing changes and probably Deadlock will make Camping a lot more viable. And it was already way too good.
So it would be nice to see if they do something against camping, like increasing Hook Stages (which should have been done when they bumped Gens to 90 seconds). And I also expect some changes to Mangled and Hemorrhage as well. (I think Sloppy Butcher will be overtuned when the changes go live as they are)
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I am absolutely positive they are going to change that before the patch goes live. Mangled in particular will not stay the way it is, and camping will also need to be nerfed in some way or form.
This is just the ptb. The direction of these changes are great, they just need more changes as compensation before the patch goes live.
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Pretty much agree but since flashlight nerf Overwhelming Presence can be fun against flash squads.
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So is this a problem of anti heal perks stacking too strong or the hook timer being too short or a combination of the two? In this example the killer is bringing 50% of their loadout to anti heal(additionally if hemorrhage/mangled is too strong on add-ons they can do a pass like they did for exhaustion add-ons where many of them had their functionality changed). This goes for both sides but if a player dedicates 50,75,100% of their loadout to 'x' how powerful should that be?
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Imo it's the fact that hook timers have never been changed. Every time you nerf speeds for survivors without changing hook timers at all, camping gets stronger. We saw it with gen speeds in 6.1 and it'll be even worse with healing in this patch.
The post I'm responding to here is talking about a specific build, but this change becomes base kit. It doesn't matter what the killer brings because 24 seconds heal is a base kit, map wide 50% healing penalty compared to current healing numbers.
Let's assume a killer has no perks or add-ons, and just look at the base heal speed of 24s. A hook stage takes 60s, and it would take 2 survivors base time of 48 seconds to heal each other.
If the killer just face camps a hook, and survivors perfectly execute the save, which takes 2 people and costs them each a health state, it ends with the person off hook, but now at least 3 people are injured.
The next hook is guaranteed to be 2 hook stages (likely the tunneled death of the recently unhooked survivor). Because in order to save again, the survivors have to reset, which takes 48 of the 60 seconds left on the hook timer.
If you swap in the 4th survivor it might only take 24 seconds to heal, but the end of that save everyone is injured because the only play to rescue is to trade health states again. There's also 100% pressure since, at best, 1 survivor is on gens for only part of the time, and they're working injured.
You could use Reassurance, but if you take a hit going in to Reassure, you only gain 6 seconds because you trade a 30s pause for a 24 second reset heal before you can go back in for the save.
And that assumes everyone has perfect knowledge, immediately, that the face camp is happening (so, kindred or comms), AND they're executing the only rescue strategy perfectly and efficiently. Oh, and they all need to start out healthy too.
Camping and tunneling is the meta, regardless of the perks the killer brings. You can add sloppy butcher and nothing else, and the numbers get worse to the point that saving can become impossible before the next hook stage.
All it takes is standing in front of the first hook of the game.
Edit: words, spelling
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why are you healing close to a camping killer
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Like a lot of things, the problem isn't any one element (usually), it's stacking.
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Would rather just run lightborn at that point. Might be okay for doubling up medkit and toolkit usage, but then you’re kinda just hoping it works out rather than brining it because you see it in the lobby.
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Plaything>thana
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Mileage may vary. I never cleanse my Plaything because I'd rather deny the Pentimento stack. And then my teammates spend half the match looking for their Plaything totems when the gens could be done.
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What's wrong with requiring healing perks?
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It's not about "just requiring healing perks", it's the fact that SoloQ is specifically going to need them. SWF (especially top tier SWFs) wont be affected as much since they can coordinate and make sure they always have someone healthy to make unhooks/trades while others heals. SoloQ lacks that, even after the HUD changes.
This is ignoring the fact that SWF can remove weak links to begin with, getting hits (and gaining pressure) can be difficult for the Killer who is facing a SWF, which will overall just lead to less situations where trades are even needed for an unhook to occur. This change is negatively impactful to SoloQ since they (as you might expect) have a variety of skill levels that are seemingly random.
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You run plaything to force the heal or quicky down them because you are now a stealth killer vs injured survivors. Strong chase killers will most likely be running Gift of Pain and Plaything. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
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It's impossible to avoid this though. Nearly any change you do is going to effect solo queue more, so it feels like trying to balance around that so heavily is a waste of time.
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Feelsbad Plag Mains
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I disagree, a majority of the community plays SoloQ so it does have a huge impact and isnt a waste of time.
Whenever BHVR nerfs Survivors, they nerf both SWF and SoloQ, the main problematic area is how they go about it since some things affect one group more than the other. Some designs are obvious, look at Eruption, it barely impacted SWFs but destroyed SoloQ players.
I think there is a way BHVR can nerf healing without being extremely oppressive. The medkit/self-heal nerfs were a good start, SWFs could use coordination to basically reset the match and have a lead on the Killer in certain situations, but nerfing altruism is something that should never happen.
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"I disagree, a majority of the community plays SoloQ so it does have a huge impact and isnt a waste of time."
Pretty sure we saw stats recently that didn't agree with this. Especially at higher mmr almost all matches are at least a duo minimum.
You essentially never answered my point though. How do we nerf swf without hurting solo queue. Almost everything you do for swf is gonna hurt solo queue.
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Again, as I stated, self-healing specifically is what needed a nerf. Altruism should be rewarded.
Medkits specifically removed Killer pressure way too quick, Circle of Healing was way too easy to set-up and let SWFs cycle out Survivors to take hits without any downsides. They were problematic for most M1 Killers and were incredibly frustrating to deal with. Self-reliance, in of itself, can be problematic in some instances, not so much in others, but with healing it definitely was an issue, I think most people can agree on that.
Altruism is a different case, since it brings Survivors together and allows you to pressure multiple people. Altruism should always be rewarded because it directly benefits the Killer by wasting more time overall, since it requires at least 2 Survivors. Altruism can also work in the benefit of the Killer since SWFs can take hits (even when not necessary) which spreads pressure and requires two Survivors to heal back any damage done (1 in chase, 2 healing, 1 on a generator... aint that bad). "Altruism is their greatest strength, yet altruism is their greatest weakness."
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If more than 2 survivors are injured, it's already not a "camping" nor "tunneling" at that point.
There is decent amount of times BEFORE someone gets hooked, as people can chase and buy time, it's not as problematic as people think it to be.
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You are forgetting that some Killers have the ability to spread pressure or health states easily BEFORE actually hooking a Survivor:
- Legion's Feral Frenzy
- Blight's Mobility/Ability
- Huntress's Hatchets
- Trickster's Knives/Main Event
- Artist's Crows
- Wesker's Mobility/Ability
- Literally any stealth Killer employing Hit and Run
- Twins (Victor)
- Nemesis's Zombies
- Knight's Guards
Also just because you camp and tunnel doesnt mean other Survivors wont get injured in some way. What is the point of camping if you cant stop the unhook? It's not like the Survivors are instantly going to shiver their timbers and not unhook (unless it is Bubba), the entire point in camping is to bring the Survivors to you (and pressure them at the same time) otherwise the Survivor on hook is left to die.
And focusing all your efforts on a single Survivor is not optimal, tunneling to win realistically involves you pressure Survivors between hooking the same Survivor anyways, otherwise you are objectively losing out on pressure AND ruining the day of that one Survivor at the same time; you want to make the match a 3v1, but you still got to pressure the other Survivors.
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