Hag nerf
Comments
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Hag deserves so much better she is quite uniqe but has not been given any love from devs like ever?
Hag is much weaker than people think. All the A or B-tiers she is getting is not deserved Hag is mediocre at best. A good team calling her out early will bully her more than they could any other killer in the game.
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Maybe people should wait till the PTB is out and the changes are tested.
I don´t understand that as a nerf.
You have to crouch over the trap to not set it off and then disarm a few seconds (?). This takes time. How long we will see.
In most matches decent survs will run in all your traps when you are in chase or carry someone anyway.
Only the fast flashlight removal is gone.
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She has 5 ways to counter/avoid her power without counting flashlights. This will be yet another way to destroy her power. Do you know of any other killer with 6 counters?
People have been asking for buffs, not a nerf. She gains no benefit from this kind of change.
The change will affect how well some perks work on her, it will affect the time she needs to trap and retrap negatively, it will make it harder to keep an eye on gens, it can be abused while she is busy. She is slow and even if she gets a notification that a trap is removed, what can she do?
This is a change that will only benefit survivors, allow them to destroy a killer's power without any consequence. The other counters may at least pose some sort of risk to such actions, and only some of them. She has counters that post no threat or consequence already.
When you destroy traps during chases right now, you risk the Hag teleporting and hitting you. She may not teleport, but maybe she will. It's a risk. Where is the risk with the new change? Survivors can crouch over her traps while she is chasing and what will she do? She will need to waste time retrapping while survivors do gens.
With flashlights, at least you can bring Franklin's as a counter. What can you do in this situation? Nothing.
She isn't getting any changes to help her. She is still slow, she is not getting any new add-ons. Devs are fixing one problem, while creating a bigger one
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Hag has always been a low tier killer. It's just that MMR and the overall seasoning of the playerbase keep proving this fact more and more. She's a noobstomper type of character, very oppressive against the noobs/newbies, very limited and easily countered versus seasoned players who don't fear her power.
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This is not a very special buff but it won´t matter as much as you think.
It will still be like @Emoba said.
And unless with certain add ons your traps get destroyed all the time and you can´t teleport because you are to far away.
And the usual hook traps will still work pretty much the same way.
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-"she is receiving a massive nerf, thanks to Otzdarva, who made this change suggestion a few months ago in a video."
I have posts on the steam forum dating back to 2017 saying you should be able to scratch out her traps. I have been posting this suggestion a very long time.
Imagine playing against trapper but you cant disarm his traps without using charges from a toolkit or having the sabotage perk. That sounds ridiculous right? That's because it is. Hag has been ridiculous for ~5 years.
Even though she was weak she needed a mechanic that introduced : Fair Play.
-"Survivors have plenty of ways to avoid and remove her traps without taking a hit. You can crouch to avoid or run around the radius of the trap, so you don't trigger it. You can trigger the trap on its very edge of the radius and even if the Hag teleports, she is unlikely to hit you."
This is propaganda and let's talk about each.
- Unlike Trapper you can trap the hell out of hooks. Trapper lost this ability because it was "cheap". You trap a hook and if they run you teleport and if you dont you walk over and smack them. This is a "catch 22" scenario where either way the survivor loses.
- You cannot avoid the traps because unlike beartraps they are flat and cannot be seen from a distance. You do not have time to duck walk around the map. It is not realistic to use Urban Evasion (ever) because that perk keeps you from learning how to stealth and instead you use that perk to fake knowing how to stealth.
- -"You can trigger the trap on its very edge of the radius and even if the Hag teleports, she is unlikely to hit you." This is a true sentence if you are someone who has had hundreds of hours of playtime against hag or you are a Hag main. Otherwise 99% of people can't do this. This is a "comp level play" skill that most people do not have.
- The reality is only a flashlight or "armed" exhaustion movement perk like Sprint Burst gives most people the ability to trigger traps safely.
- Hag is one of the most annoying killers to play against because she rips control of your camera away. This is really unfun. Even if you know a trap is there you are forced to have your camera yanked toward the trap and there is nothing that can be done to prevent that.
Hag is supposed to be a hit and run Killer. She will be better after the changes. She will lose her "catch 22" power set and this is 100% fine.
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Ok...? I agree with you for the most part XD I still say that she going to become lil better thanks to the healing nerf since I agree with otz and others who say the current healing meta is hurting hag alot.
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Great for anyone who doesn't play Hag yes. Now all survivors just freely remove traps without punishment and you're stuck as an M1 110 killer with no power or movement besides being short
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Lets be real now...do you HONESTLY think they'd even touch Hag? They refuse to change anything about her and have for years, this nerf is simply to reduce her pickrate further so they can completely ignore her.
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The devs are slow, but they do eventually get around to making adjustments to things that need it. While I get this might not be ideal for hag players, we don't actually know how well hag will perform with these changes since the ptb is also coming with healing nerfs. It's possible this change ends up being power neutral or even a net buff, because of other changes coming.
If hag was the only thing getting changed, then compensation buffs would be warranted, but it's not.
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I mentioned Otz because he made a video with the exact suggestion that is getting implemented a few months ago. You might have suggested something similar on Steam, but I'm sure more people have seen the video that has been up for a few months than your 6-year-old post. I also heard other content creators suggesting this to the devs. The difference in Otz suggestion is that he also wanted Hag to have normal killer speed. This is not something included in the mid-chapter so far.
Now, about your points:
- Hag players, excluding the ones doing their occasional Hag daily challenge, put either 0 traps at hooks or 1 trap. They can put 10 traps, but they don't, because it's not helpful. Don't compare Trapper here, because unlike Hag, his traps need to be disarmed in order to walk over them. He can block off all paths to a hooked survivor, and Hag can't. The simple thing is, you can walk over the trap without triggering it. You don't become injured, you're not stuck without being able to move.
- You have a 3rd person view, you can use it to see the traps away from the trigger range. Move your mouse and look around, run places where it's unlikely to have a trap. You don't have to crouch the entire match and if you are, you don't understand how her power works. It's easy to notice where her web is, so you know you don't even need to pay any sort of attention to the floor when you're away from her web. Fact is, you need to think logically and strategically when versing this killer, but it's not complicated, I promise.
- Your point is incorrect. A player with 30 hours is able to do this successfully. It's not complicated nor hard to achieve.
- Not going to comment on it, she has 5 ways to avoid/remove her traps. 6 if you want to count flashies.
- You trigger a trap and a scary skinny lady pops up, screaming at your character. The camera flip is your character reacting to that. It is actually realistic.
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I haven't read the whole thing so I'm sorry if I'm treading old ground here but I think a small Hag nerf to give her power more general counterplay is fine considering she's about to also bask in the glory of extended heals, weaker DH and her biggest counters being completely reworked
Ever since Circle of Healing came out, Hag has been in a rough spot since that perk is the most anti-hag perk there is pretty much. It'll still be good against her, but now survivors can't shrug off injuries from a Hag too quickly like they can currently. Hag relies on keeping people injured to do well.
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So instead of getting the correct and best changes we can for our main killer, we need to just accept the facts and hope the devs don't take 5 years to update the killer again. If we can get the changes the killer needs now, why shouldn't we? Why would we need to have the killer broken for months or years instead of the change being done right from the get go?
The healing changes are for every killer's benefit, except that Hag is accompanied by a nerf to her counterable power.
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I explained more in the comments but I realize the post doesn't include half of the explanation the comments have, so I'm considering editing the post with the most updated information. I also keep repeating myself at this point and I can't expect people to read 40+ comments
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The ptb hasn't even gone live for you to have given the changes a try and acting like these changes are going to completely break hag has no merit. It's clear you have no intention of being reasonable so I'm not going to engage any further.
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Like I said apologies for treading old ground
I mean I don't disagree that playing Hag both right now and potentially in the future may still be pretty rough with the nerf. She is def getting to the level of killers like Myers who are just really outdated. That being said I think this nerf is a step in the right direction in bringing her in line with the rest of the cast
Also I agree with you, current hag's power is counterable, it totally is.
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I main this killer, so I consider myself well qualified to know what changes are going to hurt her and what won't. Other hag mains here have also agreed, or are they unreasonable too?
I will try the PTB when it comes out tomorrow and I will record the issues I mentioned will happen with this change.
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My point is that with this kind of change, she is also getting compensated with a buff, so we don't have to see her drown and become less playable than the Twins. That's where she is headed
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I think Hag's one of the most power reliant killers in the game so any change that makes her power weaker does have a huge knock on effect to her whole playstyle
Issue is, I don't know how you could buff her. Some random ideas:
- A slightly longer lunge after teleporting to a trap
- A small haste buff if she has 0 traps active on the map (She is 110% after all)
- This one is really out there but in the same vein as clown - another type of phantasm trap??? That might be interesting.
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This is something the Devs talked about for years. At least it's happening at the same time flashlight interaction is removed.
Is it really a nerf? Depends on how long it takes to disable. Are survivors going to crouch walk everywhere looking for traps to disable? Doubt it. It's use will be for hook rescues where time is limited.
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-"Don't compare Trapper here, because unlike Hag, his traps need to be disarmed in order to walk over them."
You never answered my question : would it be fun/fair if you needed sabo or a toolbox with charges to disarm a bear trap? Trappers would run franklins and would have nearly impossible to disarm traps.
-"she has 5 ways to avoid/remove her traps"
She has 2 ways to remove traps currently and those are flashlight+ run over them with an exhaustion perk or while she is carrying someone. Stop sugar coating the issue.
-"It is actually realistic."
Is it though? You're Dwight and you've been chased by Hag for ~5 years on the upwards of probably close to a Billion times. Hag again? /sigh. Also what's the realism of magic? Can I interest you in some magic crystals? Maybe if you are a Billionare the French would sell you a Mirage F1 with the R. 550 magic missile.
-"You have a 3rd person view, you can use it to see the traps away from the trigger range"
What happens when you put traps under vegetation? Do they glow? No. Do they have any indication they are there? No. The implication is : traps would be more fair if they could not be placed where they have the option to be occluded. Note I'm not advocating for that because that would make Hag very weak. Compare that to a beartrap that is physically visible inside the terrain (and even more visible if you turn vegation to 1 in your GUI settings).
Let's be brutally honest here for a second. What killer in the game historically has the most beneficial kit for camping without being right on the hook? It's Hag with Make your Choice. She is probably the main reason we have base kit BT so that you can't down the healthy player and then insta down the hurt player for huge snowball.
Removing that as an option made Hag far less cheap to play against and was a good decision for the game.
-"I think this nerf is a step in the right direction in bringing her in line with the rest of the cast"
Honestly I think most people will agree when they stop and think about what this change means as it will make playing against the Hag far more tactical. It will require Hag mains to be sneaky with their trap placements - something that has been unnecessary because until now she could brute force her traps on you.
If any of the killers should be about Guile it should be Hag. I think the use of Franklins by Hag mains told the developers that something was wrong.
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You do bring up a fair point and I agree with you for the most part but Franklins was brought for more reasons then just trapping items
It's the best counter to Hag's 2 biggest weaknesses (Flashlights and Medkits), now with both of these things being either obsolete or weaker Franklins might see a lot less use for dedicated Hag players in favour of other perks.
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I always said that the worst thing they could do to her is adding a basekit removal for her traps (and this happens now without any compensation)
It is a gigantic nerf. As example :
People will still run around and trigger traps when hag is busy, far away or if they want to lure her away. But guess what happens if you set a few traps mid chase and the survivor you chased has some time later? That survivor will just undo all your hard work or tell their swf buddies where to remove traps.
The old method was to crouch or to trigger and run away which often leads to chases and survs are never tired to express how much they like a chase. Well this is gone now too.
I wouldnt be mad if there would be a compensation for this astronomically nerf like normal killer speed + guaranteed hit after a trap trigger (unless haste effect or window/pallet is in play) but she got nothing.
She already one of the least played killers and people are sick of facing the same ones day for day and now even Mains will drop her
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-"But guess what happens if you set a few traps mid chase and the survivor you chased has some time later? That survivor will just undo all your hard work or tell their swf buddies where to remove traps."
That's entirely the point. You give players an option for dealing with traps instead of having a system where no flashlight= no counterplay unless you have an exhaustion perk ready.
-"I wouldnt be mad if there would be a compensation for this"
What do Dead Hard, CoH and Healing in general have in common? They are all getting nerfed to oblivion and will remove three of the things that plagued her the most.
The difference is now you actually have to use effort to get people to step into traps. They aren't just a thing that has zero counterplay because you pressed a button (kinda like dead hard right now).
Again the issue I see is that this is a huge quality of life increase to make playing against Hag more fair. Now you don't need to bring Franklin's Demise - but you can't take away people's ability to disarm your traps in a fair way. I mean imagine if you could see what killer you are playing against in the lobby and everyone switched to a torch. It's pretty stupid to not have any meaningful way to counter her power without a light.
It's not like you have to go around the map and collect your traps like poor old Trapper.
-"Boo Hoo Hag lost the ability to play in a way that was unfun and had little counterplay".
This is what I'm hearing.
Sneaky smart plays will be rewarded. That will take some critical thinking and it will take you some time to get used to that idea. Welcome to how most of the "low tier" killers have to play in order to get any kind of traction.
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I think we need to see how long this trap removal takes now. If it is borderline instant, this will be a problem. If it takes several seconds, then it MIGHT be fair.
I feel like survivors should take at LEAST four times as long to undo a killer power as a killer does using it, to make up for the time loss.
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Hey Michi, hope you are doing well!
Yeah, against coms it may be a pain. Unfortunately basement Hags at lower levels will still dominate where BHVR will think she's fine.
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All good! (except for the hag nerf)
Well maybe basement will be now more bearable for people now.
How are you doing? Hopefully you are having a great time!
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I agree. It’s already easy to counter her if survivors know how to do it. No need in another counter play, she’s already weak when play not against babys.
With new patch Sloppy will be very powerful on her, especially in suffocating 3-gen tactic, but it’s not only about her, devs healing changes require revision.
Comments here are very questionable because what I see is people who do not know counterplays or know just about crouching, still think they can talk for those changes. Maybe try to learn the killer first? I’m pretty sure there is a video “How to counter Hag” on YT which a lot of commentators need to watch before commenting.
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"Several seconds" would not give Hag extra time. It will waste her time, since she will need to replace traps that were removed without any sort of consequence to the survivors. The consequences are for Hag only - she can't go back to her removed trap quickly enough, she can't punish survivors for removing her trap, she needs to take time to replace her trap, etc. Hag will end up wasting more time, therefore making gen rushing an even bigger issue for her.
Hag neither has the time nor enough traps to put "bait" traps which would be completely useless. How would putting a "bait" trap with the sole purpose of it to be removed by survivors a good strategy? As a Hag main, you should already know, you need to be using all of your traps. You don't have traps to spare for the sole purpose of them being "bait"
With flashlights, you can bring Franklin's and done, you have a counter. You don't have to think about them anymore. You slap em, you trap the flashlight, you stop thinking about it.
One problem removed and a bigger one created.
Most other killers that are being changed in the mid-chapter are receiving buffs. Hag is one of the killers getting nerfed. So what? We need to pray that the devs don't butcher her any further and maybe give her a buff in the coming years?
I will not be playing her if she receives no compensation. I already started playing Nemesis since I already face him every other survivor game. And guess what? He is super easy to play as.
Why would I be sweating trying to make a killer with 6 counters to her power work? Sacrificing my game style to camp hooks or camp gens? I don't want to be doing that, and seeing how it may be needed after such a change, I would rather move to another killer.
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I think that some people in this thread are arguing past each other. I do not see how (except if the time is really really long) you can make an argument that this change is a buff. Hag just gets more and simpler counterplay to her kit with no compensation. Good Hag players (some of whom are here in the thread) have been complaining forever that her power has a lot of counters already and have been asking for a buff to compensate and bring her in line with other killers that have a high skill in -> power out ratio.
Playing Hag is difficult and comes with disadvantages. As the game continues to develop, these seem to be growing and it makes sense that Hag mains do not love that pattern. This is not about wanting easy wins or stronger camping, as some are quick to judge. Please try to understand the arguments being laid out by people who really enjoy this killer. Hag counterplay is not mechanically demanding and required the same thinking and tactics to beat as the Hag needed to win. This change just adds some weight to an already imbalanced scale.
Serious props to Foodie for sticking with the thread, updating it, and arguing for all of us muddy lady enjoyers.
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Thank you! It's always nice to hear from a fellow Hagger!
Unfortunately, I don't think the post will make any difference, but at least I will know I tried to fight for this killer.
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Tbh I think they're doing what they did to twins but to Hag. People were complaining about broken playstyles with twins so they just started nerfing EVERYTHING about them and ignoring them entirely in hopes so few people would play them that they'd be forgotten about. With the recent tunnel camp complaints people have been bringing Hag into the discussion and since like twins, they can't figure out a reasonable solution, they just nerfed her so hard they won't have to think of her anymore. They already heavily neglected her (Haddie not receiving a cosmetic 6 months into release but its been almost 2 years since Hag's last cosmetic lol). I truly think they just make certain changes so that way they don't have to worry about those characters and Hag is definitely one I think they just hit with this massive nerf hammer so she becomes so unfun and unplayable her pick rate drops further and they can just ignore her.
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Maybe we should politely ask Korea's DBD community to invite Mathieu again on some business trips; we may never know, they might get him to play hag again.
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Definitely disagree with a few of your points
For starters, consider trapper for a second. Trapper's traps are:
- Easier to see than Hag's
- More lethal
- There are less of them
- They aren't automatically replenished when destroyed like Hag's are
Yet survivors still don't tend to go around finding each and every one and disarming them - they'll check important areas like shack or disarm traps they literally see him place and that's mostly it.
Realistically, survivors are only gonna specifically wipe away traps by the hook or potentially traps held at 3 gens. They aren't gonna go out of their way to find the traps - if they're intelligently placed and hidden then this will just be a massive waste of time, you're writing as if survivors know just as much about where you place your traps as you do, as if they know specifically where everything is placed, but this is not the case. Your time is obviously more valuable than theirs, but they're gonna spend much longer actually finding and disabling traps than you take to place them, and even then most of the time they'll just be better off triggering them the same way they always have.
You'll definitely have to be more wary of whether survivors see you place traps or not, but that just adds an element of counterplay to Hag (which I think she honestly needs)
I do agree that the change didn't have much thought put into it though, I definitely like some of the changes you suggested at the end of your post to make the feature more important to Hag's kit rather than something just thrown in there god knows how long after release (although making them unable to do gens definitely is not the best idea, that only incentivises 3 gen gameplay even further). It is without question a nerf and giving Hag some compensation would definitely be nice (as much as I dislike her lol)
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I don't see why Trapper has any play here for comparison:
- His traps always injure survivors who step on them, or down them (add-on)
- His traps can injure survivors who disarm them (add-on)
- His traps can set themselves up (also add-on)
- He can affect the speed which it would take survivors to disarm his traps. Also by basekit, it takes longer for survivors to disarm Trapper's traps than it is for Hag's to be wiped
- He has normal killer speed
- He receives a notification that his trap has been removed
Hag has no add-ons to affect her traps being removed. She is slower. It takes 3 seconds to wipe a trap and she receives no notification.
So tell me, how is this comparison fair? Trapper's traps are more lethal than Hag's, but he can't teleport, so it's fine, right?
Hag can't either, not when a trap is wiped or triggered at the edge of the trap's trigger radius. These are 2 very easy, very abusable and strong counters to this killer and the killer can't do anything. She can do, nothing. (She has 4 other counters, but we are only talking about these 2 now)
That's the issue. Trapper has add-ons to help him, he receives notification, he has normal killer speed.
Hag has nothing. Bugs, she has that, even more bugged in the PTB. Her lunge is bugged, making her second counter even stronger. I don't know if it's a shadow nerf or a bug. Regardless, it's ridiculous.
If you've ever played with SWF as Hag, you know, they follow you around while you're chasing their friend or in general. You trap mid-chase and the survivor comes click-click, no trap, well now, it's a 3-second wipe and no trap, no notification it's removed. Survivors even at soloQ go out of their way to remove her web and waste her time.
If you think Hag needs any further counterplay, you didn't read my post.
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As someone who mains of Flesh and Mud (Ace Visconti & The Hag)
I don't think this is the nerf everyone seems to think it is, people could already trip your traps now they just have a safer option to disable them that arguably wastes more time than it gives.
If the entire team is looking for your traps, you can now just bloodlust someone to a down
if one person is sweeping the map for traps to disable, you now basically have a passive form of regression because that person is not doing gens.
if one person dedicates themselves to following you around in chase, you can interrupt them disabling your traps by dropping chase and now there is a new vulnerable target (slow crawl to wipe away trap) the key will be identifying this early
Compare this to flashlights, where at range you could lightburn a trap with zero risk to yourself and the Hag was forced to give up one of her perk slots to run a very inoptimal perk in Franklin's Demise.
I could reliably tank 2-3 flashlights with franklins, 3 was hard and 4 was basically impossible.
Now I no longer have to dodge games just because ppl bring 4 flashlights, and I no longer have to listen to people whine about Franklin's Demise. 😌
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The post explains well enough that the issue is. I'm sick of repeating myself in the comments. You can also find my opinion after trying out the PTB in the PTB feedback section if you're curious. I made a new post )
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I played a few hours yesterday and I was not really feeling pressured at all, someone would wipe away a trap thinking they're slick and by that time I had already set two more somewhere else.
The only time this is gonna really suck is rotten fields, with any luck they take the same approach to rotten fields that they did with blood lodge and move the loops out from the sides to give more LOS coverage for stealth and trapsetting killers.
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