I Feel Like People Will Never Be Satisfied With Dead Hard
I feel like people will never not complain about DH because there are many elements just around the perk that make it frustrating for at least someone out there.
❎ You do not know who has it, and who does not have it, until their Exhaustion perk is revealed. Which just leads to this "just wait it out" even if it isnt there mindset.
❎ It has the ability to deny a down that you otherwise would have gotten, and unlike other Exhaustion perks, DH will always feel "cheap" to certain players.
❎ It does not matter how much you nerf the amount of times it can be used, people will still complain because the perk is "useable".
❎ It can create unfair situations. And even when the situation is fair, you will still have people throwing a hissy-fit over how the perk is unfair regardless of the situation.
I personally think the community is really overreacting to the DH changes, because it is either "over-nerfed" or "under-nerfed" depending on who you asked. You cannot please everyone, and this community is one tough crowd to please.
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It'll be Surge levels of annoying now, something that occasionally springs up to annoy you but not often enough to really get everyone fired up.
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The last point is so true lol. People complain about the fair dh situations for no reason. I see people complain about the "waiting out" aspect as if it takes up sooo much time (even though other exhaustion perks would buy the survivor more time) or that it's sooo boring (even though it takes 10 seconds at the very very maximum, 1/9th of the time it takes to do a gen). DH could be made into a fair perk but as long as people vocally complain about the fair parts of it and ask for it to be nerfed to an F tier perk we'll just never get there
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I mean, isnt this just the current version of Dead Hard. 90% of DHs can be avoided entirely, but as soon as it poses a mild inconvenience it becomes problematic.
This goes beyond just Dead Hard, but goes into the community's mindset. If something is annoying, they think is must be changed. I see this mindset a lot in Survivors and Killers (and those who play both sides).
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The reason people hate current Dead Hard is because with 3 chases per survivor, with lets say 2 bringing Dead Hard, the odds of one of the survivors hitting a Dead Hard, even if they're bad, is much higher.
The solution is simple, reduce the amount of chases that have Dead Hard in play, which Behavior have done, but the pseudo anti-tunnel mechanic they added is what confuses me, especially since OTR already exist.
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This perk needs to be either deleted or outright gutted to be as "viable" as Mettle of Man before debates about it will finally stop.
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I mean, realistically it is not always "3 chases per Survivor" since not every Dead Hard exactly works for the Survivor. Even some of the most skilled players Ive seen miss Dead Hard sometimes, because they are human, and humans naturally make mistakes.
Ive seen a lot of people use numbers/math to justify things in the DBD community, but they never consider nuance and human error, the two things that allow players to completely turn around and snowball games, because nothing is as simple as x + y = z, there are hundreds of other possible factors within a match that people outright ignore.
Also as for the pseudo anti-tunnel; You can take a hit with Off The Record, use Decisive Strike to reset your Deep Wounds, then use Dead Hard. I mean you can already do that now but I feel like it might see more usage with the Dead Hard changes.
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True sadly, DH could become a B tier perk and that wouldn't be good enough for so many people for no good reason
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Who cares if the perk was nerfed, the perk sucked, never gave any value anyways, and was super easy to counter
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not always, at pallets its hard to counter and against powers like huntress or demo or whatnot its straight up impossible to counter bc it can just be reacted to. even besides that it doesnt "suck," its very inconsistent sure, but the ability to mess with the killers head and even just have a chance to extend the chase by a LOT is still pretty strong
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It'll always be griped about about until it's either nerfed into complete worthlessness or just completely reworked into a different perk. Everyone has a DH rework idea, mine is to change it so it grants Endurance while vaulting, once, instead of the silly dab move.
My problem with Dead Hard has always been its constant presence. It is a very popular perk, regardless of how good or bad it is. It is also a perk that has direct and obvious effects on the killer's experience, which is why it can be so infuriating to them. So you have a perk that makes people mad and is everywhere, for years. That's how we end up where we are today.
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Bruh, if 90% of Dead Hards were avoidable, no one would use the perk. There are many instances at pallets or windows where Killers have to lunge if they don't wanna risk letting the Survivor get another loop or make it to the next tile, and those are easy opportunities to force a DH hit.
And if your opinion is truly that barely anyone does this, then I hate to break it to you, but you are playing bad Survivors. Like, I'm not that good and it happens basically every time I run into DH users.
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For a perk that’s apparently terrible and hard to use and easy to counter, it sure gets picked a lot.
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Its completely broken at a design level. You can spend ages trying to outplay a survivor, finally do, and they get a free mistake forgiver.
Its bad design.
Like otz said, the reason its so powerful is you need to play around it even when someone doesnt have it. The only killer perk that is like that is old noed.
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dh has never been "free" lol i dont understand why ppl just ignore needing to time it right. also dont forget pain res, no way out, hexes bc of haunted ground's existence. passive deterrence is allowed to exist. the real thing making dh strongest is when its actually uncounterable
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DH is easy as ######### to time.
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wrong
except against ranged killers, but in the open nah its not lol
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As long as the perk is a 3rd health state, it's going to be a perk people complain about. The only way it wouldn't be complained about is if it was on the level of MoM where a survivor really has to go out of their way to get the extra health state.
Personally, as the devs try to balance the game there's no way Dead Hard is ever going to be fine as long as it's easy to get the 3rd health state.
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I'm convinced killers won't be happy until they can have 4K's handed to them. Any minor inconvenience to them like Dead Hard, the crying will never stop.
I'm at the point just delete it out of the game so I don't have to listen to crying killers all the time.
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Maybe because waiting it out is boring, every single chase. Tedious is monotonous with a slight hint of skill is all dh is now.
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Even if it's every chase it's just not enough time to be so insanely boring as to alone warrant changing the perk, remember that gens take 90 seconds
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IT's not about balance or anything to do with the rest of the game though. Playing around it every single time is just beyond boring for me at this point. I get hit by it very rarely as well, but it still doesn't matter. If I had to play against knight 2/3rd of my games for 2 years I would drop survivor too.
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How is it that much more boring than doing gens?
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Ah yes, the common "you face bad Survivors" or "you are low MMR" argument.
Let me explain something to you. If I constantly face bad Survivors over and over, surely my MMR would go up from winning constantly, and I would be facing better Survivors eventually, that argument does not inherently work in a game that has some sort of SBMM to dictate matchmaking. And here is the thing, I do face really damn good teams, I just have the patience and awareness to deal with Dead Hard, and rarely do Survivors actually use it effectively against me because of such.
And while we are here, I might as well provide a bit of advice.
Want to avoid hitting Dead Hard near a window/vault-location? Pay attention to the item they are holding, it can especially help since items are removed from their hands upon starting an animation, if you see someone run into a vault but the item not get removed you know they are going to Dead Hard (since there is a distance from a window/vault-location, and Im sure you understand where and when they will get the vault prompt). There are other subtle things as well that you can pick up on as well, which generally revolve around the experience level of the people you are playing against.
If you do lunge-swing into Dead Hard, you can quickly look up to avoid hitting the Survivor, and they will lose out on a significant amount of distance. This depends on the loops you want to use this trick on though, since you have to quickly decided if you want them to basically have another loop at whatever tile you are at or if you want them to use the Dead Hard's sprint burst for distance to reach a different (and potentially stronger or weaker) loop. You can do basic risk-analysis, like anyone else can, it's not that hard to decide when and where to do this.
I also briefly mention some other things about Dead Hard which are important to note in this reply below.
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No, you really are just playing bad Survivors. Which is to say, you are bad at Killer. If it's really so easy as you claim to just bait out Dead Hard, then explain why comp players keep using it, AND swinging into it?
Like here:
And here:
And here:
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Honestly I just think we'd be better off if the perk was just deleted, it's bad game design and doesn't really belong in the game like dead by daylight.
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In the open I can swing with my camera up so you will DH for nothing. DH is never about timing, it’s always a reaction, 50/50 or just spammed E when you realise that you did a mistake or you are in a good position for DH (corners against Huntress, for example).
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to say dh is never ever about timing is just wrong. if the killer is m1 range it absolutely is about timing is it not?
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Again, human error also applies to Killers as well. We are prone to making mistakes just as much as Survivors. Remember Patch 6.1.0 Eruption? Even with communication, competitive teams were still getting hit with Eruption, because again, people are not perfect, people make mistakes, people sometimes react to thing too late, etc.
Also this is just completely ignoring the competitive ruleset entirely. People are not allowed to bring duplicate perks, and Exhaustion perks are some of the best Survivor perks in the game since they provide guaranteed time-waste. So let me break this down for you since you clearly do not understand:
- Adrenaline: Can be brought with any Exhaustion perk anyways.
- Iron Will: Can be brought with most Exhaustion perks anyways.
- Head On: Generally not used because it cuts Generator efficiency.
- Balanced Landing: Sometimes used, but mostly not used because of map design.
- Overcome, Lithe, Dead Hard, Sprint Burst: Generally used in competitive because these are the best to bring due to having consistent and/or reliable activation conditions that let you get distance.
- Smash Hit: Smash Hit.
Remember in competitive that Sprint Burst is overall the best, it provides the most distance and is rewarding to people who can manage the Exhaustion timer, it can also still be used while in Deep Wounds which helps it work as anti-tunnel.
In the case of Dead Hard, it does have a consistent activation condition, you press E and it triggers, it relies entire upon your opponent for you to get any meaningful value from it, which is what makes most other Exhaustion perks significantly better, they dont rely on your opponent to get any meaningful value.
The only niche case that Dead Hard fills for competitive is having some sort of counter to "oppressive" Killers for a given format, but even then, most other Exhaustion perks already do what Dead Hard does if managed properly. The only reason why Ive seen actual competitive players run this perk is because it is interactive, it trades of the multi-management to instead get value from proper timing, which some players prefer depending on their gameplay style.
If competitive did not restrict and limit perks, you would mostly see Sprint Burst over every other Exhaustion perk, Dead Hard might be the second most used but Sprint Burst would be used significantly more; again, the usage rate would depend on the format though.
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i never understood the reasoning behind this. i think the intended concept behind dh is actually very interesting 🤷♀️ the only problem i see w it is when theres no way to avoid it
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99 SB is about timing, because you need to 99 it first and then walk a bit. M1 chase is about bloodlusting and mindgames. What timings you mean? When I gonna swing? It’s not about timing, I can wait for hours or I can not. Keep in mind that Killer is experienced and he suppose you have DH. I would say that DH against Huntress can be about timing if you know the timing when she can throw a hatchet. But once she waits your DH it’s 50/50 or waiting for hours.
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its timing/predicting your dh to when the killer m1s
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In both of those tournament matches, the Killer swung into Dead Hard twice. Which is to say, 66% of the time, it worked. And correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a MUCH higher success rate than the 10% figure that you seemingly pulled out of nowhere.
And Hens' Survivor escape streak had a self-imposed, two-perk limit. And the one Exhaustion perk that they chose to bring two of was not Sprint Burst, or Lithe, but Dead Hard. And gee, I can't imagine why.
Sorry, man. You may not want to believe it, but Dead Hard is just a really good perk, and pretending otherwise only shows that you either don't know what you're talking about, or are deliberately attempting to shield the perk from criticism out of some ulterior motive. Both are bad, don't do that.
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Predicting is not timing, successful predict is luck or good position for DH. I saw baby survivors who use DH with counting “one, two, three, E”. It is the timing you mean?
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Well, to be perfectly honest, the 10% was mostly just pulled from personal experience, in most matches that I play, half of the people are using Sprint Burst, and the other half, Dead Hard, and even as a Billy main (with a power that easily countered by Dead Hard), I rarely come across someone who can get the timing consistently right. And rarely do I feel "cheated" out of a down I otherwise would have gotten.
That 10% can definitely be more or less, but I personally would just rather track much more important data (kill-rates, Generators completed, escapes, etc.); so you are right in a way, it is kind of out of nowhere, well sort of, much more of a guesstimation (or rough estimation). If you want, I can start collecting data from my matches, if that helps any? Idk what else to say except that really.
And Im not saying Dead Hard is a bad perk either, Im just saying that this perk will never be in a state that people are happy with, it will always either be underpowered or overpowered, but the community will never see it as balanced because there will always be something annoying about it that people will cling onto, and the community will never be satisfied with the perk. That being said, the community as a whole is never satisfied with anything anyways, Ive never seen a gaming community complain more than the DBD community.
But Id also like to specifically focus on "attempting to shield the perk from criticism out of some ulterior motive", since it is far from it. I have played in competitive and scrim lobbies for many different games, I find competitive generally interesting whereas most people probably find it boring. I have a lot of knowledge and experience with these types of things because I have been around the block and done a lot of things.
I also hate when people say "oh, you rely on it, it's a crutch you rely on, which is why you are defending it", when Im just stating my opinion on something... and also my favorite Exhaustion perks are Balanced Landing and Head On anyways, and my heart will always belong to those perks, and Im not foaming at the mouth to have either of those buffed, I just really enjoy BL and HO.
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My biggest issue with DH is getting adressed, and that being that it works within the first chase (the most important one for Killer to apply pressure).
When there is one hooked, 1 downed and I chase someone else and that person dead hards, I don't really care that much.
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Well, if your experience is truly that barely anyone uses DH at pallets, loops or windows to deny lunges, then I'm sorry to break the news to you: You are playing bad Survivors. Which means the game has determined that you are bad at Killer.
And since matchmaking seems wildly inconsistent, you have to be pretty bad not to be seeing Survivors that consistently use Dead Hard correctly. As I said, I'm not that good and it happens basically every time I run into a DH user, especially on sweat squads, so I have no idea where you're getting this notion that barely anyone uses DH in an uncounterable way.
This is a perk that's been meta for years and years, and persisted through multiple Mid-Chapter perk updates as the most-used perk. I think people have earned the right to complain about it. At the bare minimum, people aren't going to be satisfied until it's not a regular presence in their matches anymore.
There's lots of annoying things in the game, but most of them are just gimmicks. Which is why you don't hear Flashbang or Blast Mine or Impossible Skillcheck Doctor get nearly the same level of vitriol that Dead Hard does. Dead Hard is annoying, extremely prevalent, and very powerful even at the highest skill level. The perfect formula for a perk that the playerbase will absolutely despise.
I'll take your word for it if you yourself don't use DH, but make no mistake: Dead Hard is a crutch perk. I've seen many, many Survivors who, with any other Exhaustion perk, against any decent Killer, would be absolutely torn to shreds.
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This narrative is so funny. The better the player the more value you get out of DH. And good players can easily play without DH.
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The main problem is dead Harding to pallets. There’s nothing you can do. If I swing that’s endurance. If I wait I get pallet stunned.
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"If your experience is truly that barely anyone uses DH at pallets, loops or windows to deny lunges," that is not what I said, that is completely different sentence than anything I have said.
To better clarify what I have said, I consider "proper DH usage" to be when you get hit with the Endurance status effect; if you use Dead Hard in a pallet, loop, or window and still go down, I consider it "improper," "improper" usage is not about when and where you use it, but how you get value you from the perk (in my opinion).
People DO use them at pallets, loops, and windows. I just have the ability to tell when and where people are going to use it based off of varies tells that exist in the game, and I gave a few examples of things that can be done to deal with Dead Hard in an earlier reply.
And there are situations where I just cannot counter Dead Hard (this mainly happens at pallets, or curving wide loops with Billy), it does happen, but not enough times for me to really take issue with it. Because unlike most other people, I am really difficult to piss off, and whenever I get mad, I just move onto the next match anyways.
And again, the argument that "you face bad players because you are bad" is such a dumb argument. If I face bad players that are obviously worse than me, again, I would be paired eventually against people of the same or higher skill level. It feels like a strawman that entire distracts from the point I am trying to make, and completely ignores (and is even an insult to) the mechanic skill and knowledge I express from 2000+ hours of main'ing Hillbilly.
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If Survivors are using DH at pallets or windows in such a way that you can see it coming and adjust without giving up a potential hit, then again, you are not seeing correct Dead Hard usage.
And if it doesn't annoy you when you lose a hit to it, and you're not easily annoyed by a loss, fine. But if you don't really care about losing, that might explain why you're playing at an MMR where most people don't use Dead Hard correctly.
It may also be more enlightening for you to play an M1-style Killer like Legion, Wraith, Ghostface, Sadako, Dredge, and others; Hillbilly's chainsaw can be harder to react to than an M1 lunge, because its movespeed is significantly faster than a lunge, and the windup animation can be held indefinitely.
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Yet again, I have to tap the sign that is my earlier reply.
I pay attention to items and animations to tell if people are going to use Dead Hard or vault; if I see someone using Dead Hard, I flail my mouse upwards as fast as possible to intentionally miss the hit so they do not gain distance... And honestly, I do not even know how we strayed this far from the topic but I feel as if this further fuels my point a bit.
Also, I do play M1 Killers from time to time, I have a lot of cosmetics for Ghostface and Legion that I use, and sometimes I boot up my PS4 just to play some Demogorgan (I dont have them on PC... I miss having common access to Demo without needing my PS4, I moved to PC ya know). I really just do not have a significant issue with it personally, again, I do see where it is problematic, but I just find it really hard to get mad enough to make 20 different threads on the Forums complaining like some people do.
And again, I do see where people are coming from with this perk having problematic situations. My entire point (which you are ignoring) is that it does not matter what you do to Dead Hard, if it is somewhat useable then people will complain because it's core design has something that will always be annoying to somebody; because if anyone sees anything that annoys them, they would much rather it be changed than do anything to deal with it. This goes again beyond just DH but to anything, the DBD community complains and calls for nerfs over miniscule and often unimportant things all the time, rather than trying to improve their self.
If you nerf DH, people will complain that it was over-nerfed and needs to be reworked/changed; if you buff DH, people will complain that it is too strong (which it would be) and that it needs to be nerfed heavily (which it would need to be). "You cannot please everyone," as I originally mentioned.
This entire discussion I created was because I think it is better to give constructive criticism in the Feedback Section of the Forums than to make a General Discussion to write a 10-page rant that is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. And a decent amount of replies Ive seen just further fuel my idea that have a civil and constructive conversation is basically impossible with this community.
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And how many times must I repeat myself? If you can see a telltale sign beforehand and adjust without giving up a potential hit, you are not seeing Survivors use Dead Hard correctly. If you were, we would not be seeing comp players consistently swing into Dead Hard on loops.
By your logic, we should have just as many threads complaining about Flashbang, or Blast Mine, or Doctor, or Bubba, or Head On, or Any Means Necessary, or Endfury-Hubris. But we don't. The prevalence of a perk matters. The strength of a perk matters.
You often have the last laugh when you play against a gimmick perk, because it's not a winning strategy; at best, it's a cheese tactic that you can soundly and consistently beat if you're good enough. There is no such solace in playing against Dead Hard. It is not some trivial game delay that you can just shrug off when someone Dead Hards you; it could very easily be the thing that costs you the game no matter how good you are.
Sure, you can't please everyone, but are you saying that means we shouldn't please anyone? This is a perk that's been meta, and complained about, for years and years; the game will be improved with it being nerfed. That's reason enough to go through with the change. One thing that will kill an ongoing game more surely than any nerf is to never, ever change anything; just leave a solved meta in place forever, and force everyone to play against the exact same stuff until the end of time.
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Hahaha the amount of focus,concentration and reflexes you expect here from killer players is ridiculous.
Killer with it's micro and macro managing against 4 people simultaneously while keeping a whole plethora of things in mind like the 16 perks, survivor cosmetics in relation to that, up to 7 gen states, dropped/broken pallets, etc etc. is already more mentally draining than playing survivor for many with it's lack of any downtime (like doing a gen, searching a chest, healing a teammate) and you expect to double that strain when killer have to keep that focus against EVERY survivor with dh popularity.
Hahahaha the nerve.
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You're right actually. Thats why I see it so much, and it ######### so many of my chases
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I must say this again, if Dead Hard is problematic (which it can be), then provide constructive criticism in the Feedback Section of the Forums.
My entire point is that the core design of the perk can produce problematic gameplay or at least have something frustrating about it, THERE IS A REASON WHY IVE BEEN SAYING THIS THE ENTIRE TIME. The perk as the potential to be weak and/or strong since it relies on the people using it and the people going against it; but it's core design, the ability to completely tank a hit by the press of a button, is something that people will always be upset with because of how the perk itself is structured, it's core design is inherently flawed to begin with, it always has been.
My argument is that if you do have an issue with the perk, writing a 10-page complaint in the General Discussion Section is pointless, it does nothing to actually change the perk itself. I think it is significantly better to write constructive criticism in the Feedback Section of the Forums, BHVR is more likely to see it AND it actually pushes the game into a better position than before.
Again, Im not saying that "people have no reason to be upset", my entire point is how people use their frustration in ways that get themselves nowhere, because you are better off providing actual Feedback to BHVR instead of complaining to deaf ears. Complaining and whinging does nothing beneficial for you or anyone else; and Im tired of the DBD community doing this with every single miniscule thing instead of either: 1, improving (if able); 2, providing constructive feedback.
There is a clear difference between complaining and providing constructive feedback; Im not saying that everyone complains, since that would be objectively wrong, but a lot of people do complain instead of trying to provide something more beneficial to the community and developers, and the amount of people complaining heavily out-scale those who bring more beneficial things to the table, which is where I take huge issue with.
But BHVR themselves need to accept that no matter what they do, they cannot please everyone. Im not saying "do not do anything if you cant please anyone," (that is an entirely different sentence again) because that would overall not be good for the game. But I think BHVR themselves take the wrong mindset with this, they are refusing the rip the band-aid off and put on their big-boy pants because they want to appeal to both sides when it is impossible. They NEED to accept that they cannot please everyone and just make changes that are necessary for the game's health.
Please stop shoving words in my mouth that Im not even saying or going to brash assumptions that hold not merit to anything that Im saying, and actually take the time to read what I am saying. Im not trying to be rude with saying this, but it is just frustrating to see what I am saying being ignored and pushed aside entirely.
I have been agreeing with many points (obviously not all, but a good chunk of points) you have been making and you still keep trying to insist that Im wrong in some way when Im agreeing. And again, you've also just been ignoring what Ive been saying or making non-points that just do nothing but strawman and/or mention things I never even said.
Post edited by Iron_Cutlass on0 -
It does not matter how much you nerf the amount of times it can be used, people will still complain because the perk is "useable".
Seen many like this. Those need to be discarded as emotional outburst.
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I would honestly just prefer if the community went more out of their way to provide actual constructive feedback about things instead of making complaint posts, this was one of the things that drove me to make this original post, was people complaining with incoherent ramblings that contribute nothing meaningful to the community.
Providing constructive feedback should be done more, it provides more benefit to the players and developers.
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Glad you agree since that isn't a point lmao
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