Unwinnable 3 Gen Dead Dawg Saloon
Gens are too close to each other and to easy to defend. Especially because around (2) is a massive deadzone, no windows and (3) has one pallet and no windows either. (1) is able to be contested with balanced landing and because it has access to shack but thats not enough to contest the 3 gen as a whole. (1) is the weakest gen for survivors anyway, because the killer keeps going there.
This RNG-based layout is an auto-loss in soloQ but even a swf would probably only be able to contest this if they are very good at the game.
Comments
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I agree that gens at this map are very close to eachother.
But the problem here is that sorvivors left presicely those three gens.
Preventing 3gen situation is a responsibility of survivors, repairing one of those early (1 would be the best target), and leaving gen at the top of saloon would make a real difference
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It’s a small map. Lots of obstacles, but a small map that has lots of areas open spaces.
Its a reason why it is one of the best maps for killer
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Its so stupid when people say that its survivors job to make sure they dont 3-gen. The Killer can just camp the 3-gen area and bring hooks near them. So you cant really counterplay that against a Killer that wants to abuse it.
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You can, and should lure him out of there. In most cases you should just make a failed skillchek in any other gen, and killer will go there, so you can easly finish generator on a platform.
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That's why that gen in back is always first gen I finish...
Survivors should always try to break 3-gen from start. Not do whatever gen they see and then complain about 3-gen.
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Show me gameplay where killer won't commit to any chase outside his 3-gen from start of the game. Because if he did commit to chase, you could have finish it.
But if you wait till there are 2-3 gens left, of course he will start to defend it.
You realize an alternative option for him to win is tunnel someone out, right? But then survivors will complain too.
If I won't manage to have good first chase and find myself on 3 gens left with 1 hook, most killers can either tunnel, or hold 3-gen.
There was an alternative with end-game builds, but that was nerfed and almost noone is using it now.
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QUIZ:
There is only one gen in this map if you poped it, the killer will no longer be able to hold a 3 gen. Do you know where it’s located?
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Although i agree with you, and can say most killers wont camp 3 gen from the start, this is the issue with Skull Merchant and in some cases The Knight. They can hunker down an area from the start and refuse to leave quite easily, it's a viable strat for an easy win even though it's boring. So even though it is kinda rare, it certainly does happen. It's not the survivor's fault in this case and there really is nothing they can do about it, but I will agree that in general, most cases of 3 gen are the survivor's mistake.
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Don't take me wrong, I have done it. Depends on maps. I usually play Azarov's Resting Place in a way that I pick one half of the map and never leave, but that map just sucks.
But I don't think it's that often, most of the times, it's because survivors didn't even try, then complain about 3-gen.
You have killers that are build around defending, but can you really blame them for doing this? If they play it like normal killer, they are going to lose most of their games.
Hag, Trapper, Skull Merchant are designed in a way to defend some area. If they don't do it, they are way worse.
Knight and Legion can do it too, but they also can get away with different playstyles.
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Agree, it's why they should rework the killers that camp generators as their playstyles. At least with The Hag it's more counterable than it is with Knight and SM
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Problem is survivors didn't like multiple antiloop killers neither.
So they wanted to try something different.
And any movement killer will be simply worse Blight.
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you dont always know if the map has a broken 3-gen if you dont spawn near it. you dont know if the killer is chasing someone outside of that 3 gen unless you play swf. you dont know if the killer wants to play around the 3 gen. if you do want to contest the 3 gen early but your teammates wont, the killer can just rotate back after a chase.
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sorry to tell you but in that case you are playing against unskilled killers. Any decent Killer wont let himself get baited. And you suggesting to make mistakes in order to contest is ridiculous, dont you realize that?
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?
Why do you find it impossible for someone playing as Killer to think: "Oh, this 3-Gen setup is hard to even do with a full squad of players, I wonder how I can leverage Killer Powers and Perk mechanics in such a way as to ramp the game of attrition up to 11 by simply patrolling these three from the start, not having to worry about the initial gens as they fly by, thinking smugly to myself that I've found a way to exploit the system".
Because that's kinda the thought process that goes through my head, albeit in singleplayer strategy games.
If I can reliably hold a 3-Gen to force a win of attrition (by being able to fully contest those three gens indefinitely), why don't I just use that strat from the start? You might think it's boring to focus on it literally from the beginning of the Trial, but the formulation and execution of that kind of strategy can be interesting to people, just that in this case, it's at the expense of other people playing the multiplayer game.
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Yeah, that generator labeled #2 should definitely spawn way more to the right, closer to the main building and away from those two gens. Maybe that gen labeled #3 should also spawn farther from #1 and more towards the corner.
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If killer will leave the chases and ignore anything untill 3gen, then they would create the situation where there is only 1 gen to repair, and all survivors are healthy without a hook stage. What that means? Can this killer really defend all those gens? Commit to any chase in this scenario would end in reparing this one gen, and since survs are full health as at the start of the trial is very unlikely the killer would get more than 1k.
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the match i had i versed a bubba and all he did is get 1 down, bring it in the 3 gen area and camped on what i labeled as (1). As soon as you try to either do a gen or get the unhook he will deadzone you by walking parallel denying acces towards the middle of the map. So this way there was zero counterplay. And sure you could argue that once bubba gets a down he can facecamp anyway and confirm a kill, however he could also deny any progress in the 3-gen area because there is just too much deadzones and he can insta down you easily.
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You know what maps have strong 3-gen and where it spawns. So just check it.
Noone really try to bring killer to that back gen on saloon during chase. So if killer is chasing someone, they are not there.
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this is called keeping game hostage. If killer is doing nothing except preventing game progress. Its reportable and bannable.
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lol, no.
This is not keeping game hostage. They were free to die.
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You can apply this logic to killer - he is free to let them finish gens. So why You apply this logic only to one side?
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Did I say survivors were keeping the game hostage? No
They can both do it. Neither side is holding the game hostage. That's stupid. Both were free to give up at any point of the game.
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Yeah, but controll here is on killer side. He refused to play the game waiting at dead zone and not let others to play. If You want to say that not participating in trial and denying normal game for others which results in potentially infinite game is not taking game hostage, then do it and i will be happy to report You, then You will be crying at forum that You were banned.
If the only way to progress the game is to forfeit this is exaclty what taking game hostage is. If killer would play whole game normally and survs would leave such 3gen scenario, then its their fault. But if killer found perfect way to block progress from the start and refused in normal gameplay, this is his fault.
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Not really, he is defending gens. That's killers job.
I can say those survivors simply refused to work on gens, I tried to chase them, but they always prerun and I would lose the game, so I won't commit. It's on them, go work on gens.
Control is not really simply on killer side. If survivors hide, don't go near gens. Is control on killer side? No. Can killer finish the game? No. So it would seem survivors are better at holding the game hostage. They had option to end game at any point. Killer didn't.
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No, the premise is that killer was doing nothing since game start. He was not chasing, he was not looking for survs, he was not patrolling gens, he did presicely nothing except waiting at 3gen situation. So no, its not his job. His job is to kill survivors, not to protect gens. If killer was NOT doing his job for whole game, then its his fault. Im not talking about situation of defending 3gen. Im talking abut situation where killer was protecting 3gens from game start and refuse chases and protection of other gens.
Beside. Even if killer is defending 3gen, his main objective is to hook and sacrifice, so if killer is refusing chases and downs only because survs are running away from him (how dare they!) then he is not doing his job.
If killer being afraid he loose is not attempting to win, then he also is not doing his job.
And if you are thinking that survs should forfeit either by disconnect or lett8ing killer kill them, then you should think about it a little more.
Any situation where one side has only choice of forfeit is consider keeping game hostage.
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Archael, you're wrong. Multiple people have tried to correct you. Protecting a 3-gen isn't holding the game hostage, and it 1000% isn't bannable. Report those killers all you want, there's only one person here crying about it
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Im not talking that protecting 3gen is reportable.
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It is possible to break 3-gen, what are you talking about?
There are maps where I regularly play this way. Azarov's Resting Place is probably best example. This maps sucks if you get to low gens and some on both sides. So I just ignore 50% of the map and play with 4 gens total.
It's way to win, my job is to kill survivors. Well, this strategy will help me kill survivors. What's bad about it exactly? That survivors don't have fun, why should I care?
It's definetly not something to get reported for imo. I am not abusing anything, you can't really tell me how to play a killer.
Survivors can try to break my 3-gen, either they do it or die. Or they can go hide in corner and cry on forum. That works too I guess...
But it's not holding the game hostage. Killer can do it only by bodyblocking last survivor in corner. Cheaters can do it whenever they want.
Survivors can do it in theory by hiding for very long time, it's happening when there are last two survivors left, but I don't think that is reportable either. It's annoying as hell and I usually let them bleed out for it, but hey. They can do it.
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Do You even understand what i'm talking about?
Or trying at least?
Do You understand the difference between defending 3gen and sticking to 3gen?
If You defend 3 gens then You catch survivors, down them and hook.
If your goal is to stick to gens, dont chase and refuse to down survivors, then its keeping game hostage.
I dont understand how one can not see the difference... Or im dumb and can't explain it...
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Option B is correct
Refuse to down survivors? How that work? They are free to finish gens at that point, right?
If I see survivor is leaving 3-gen area and I am not in position to down him under 60 seconds, or get hit in 10 seconds. It would be dumb to commit to that chase.
But that's also how survivors should play it, have survivors on each side where is gen, try to work on it and prerun away when killer gets nearby. Sooner or later you will either finish gens, or killer is forced to commit to chase.
Defending 3-gen from start of the game is not really fun strategy, but it works. It's also possible to beat it. So why is that bannable again?
-If killer is doing nothing except preventing game progress. Its reportable and bannable.
-Im not talking that protecting 3gen is reportable.
From what I get, you think defending 3-gen at end of the game is fine, but defending 3-gen from start of the game is reportable. It doesn't make sense.
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No. defending 3gen is ok. What is not ok is to not participate in trial.
If You make a situation where to end the game the other side have to forfeit, surrender or let You to kill them, then you are keeping game hostage. If they made such situation its their fault. Can You see the difference? Same with other way around (tho now we have afk crows) if surv is creating a situation where to end the game Your only option was to disconnect, forfeit, surrender the trial, then they was keeping game hostage. This was possible when there was no afk crows, and survs could just hide whole game, or even jump into locker and afk there.
And one of the previous arguments:
"For survivors having fun, why i should care" or something like that. Im gonna to answer why - because playing in most unfun way will make a situation where you would play with noone anymore. But this is behaviour part, to make game fun and engaging, so that people will not leave and so that game will live.
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So your take really is:
survivors made 3-gen: it's fine to defend it.
killer made 3-gen: he should get banned, because it's holding game hostage.
3-gen can be beaten, how is it holding the game hostage?
I don't have to play in a way you think this game should be played.
With your logic, every other Hag player would be banned. They don't leave their web of traps, it would be dumb to do it.
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How You want to beat 3gen if killer is not moving from there? If killer is not interested in chases so will not down, not hook and not attempt to kill survivors? Please, tell me how?
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just tap the gens, good survivors do it to me all the time.
It's a winnable setup thanks to the gen on top of the structure, you have the safest ways out in the world it.
Just vault the ramp or flee towards the side of the map that has the structure.
Of course, if you have no pallets by the other gens by then ... that's a misplay and its on your team.
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He can't be everywhere?
You try to focus two gens on side, whenever killer goes your way, you prerun away. He goes for other gen, you go back to work on it. Repeat. If killer commits you don't try to loop there, just hold W as far as you can from 3-gen.
That's how.
You really thought 3-gen is some auto-win strategy? Of course you can beat it. It's harder than when killer plays your way by just randomly chasing whoever he sees, but it's possible.
Merchant with CoB and overcharge, that was near impossible. Even tournament level teams had problems with it, but those two perks are nerfed into oblivion, so it's possible again.
Of course depends on killer how hard it is.
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A 4 man can break a 3 gen especially now that regression perks are nerfed. If the Killer was sticking to a 3 gen at the beginning of the match and refused to commit to a chase, it means the Killer will most likely have 0 hooks.
It comes to down to map knowledge and efficiency. Potential Energy is a good way of breaking the 3 gen. However with regression perks being nerfed, there will probably be a lower likelihood of Killers playing exclusively to defend a 3 gen since the strategy is weaker now. Killers are also still adapting to the new changes, you can’t expect them to drop all their regression perks and play more aggressively overnight.
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Potential Energy XD. Good One, dude.
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Yeah... but we are talking about the situation where those gens cannot be even reached, and killer do not commit to chases. Question is still unanswered - how to break this 3gen. If you can reach gen and do anything before killer came, then yes, sure. But what if You cant even touch the gen, or come near to it. This is the starting situation i replied about keeping game hostage. Not regular 3gen or even one that is on screenshot from first post. I understand it is very unlikely scenario and maybe even abstract, but its the situation i was repling.
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Agreed, Dead Dawg isn't the problem. The survivors are always guaranteed one generator with a long patrol route [main building]. Survivors are in full control whether they 3-gen on Dead Dawg Saloon.
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Remove knight and skull merchant and I would possibly agree with you. Currently? Nope. The map is in fact THE problem (but so are other maps like it - like Azarov's and suffo pit)
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Skull Merchant is the problem, we shouldn't be changing maps just because a boring killer was added to the game.
More lockers to allow for Dredge made sense. [It didn't really change map balance, but allowed the killer to use their power].
To add to this, Dead Dawg can also 3 gen on the other side, it can also 3 gen in the street, and you can be stuck with gallows, center street, and behind the stables. All of these combinations are possible when survivors don't survey the area around them. Dead Dawg can 3 gen in many ways.
Survivors could bring maps, clairvoyance, deja vu, or visionary to get a better understanding of where generators are. But they choose not to. When I play solo survivor I frequently bring these after the HUD update. [Before Bond was a survivor's best friend, but now I only need it if I'm using a flashlight]. The HUD + [any method to locate generators] is a ton of information for a player to make educated, skillful choices on.
Haddonfield had a unique problem that generators were effectively guaranteed to spawn close together. A player could know they had a 3-gen to protect at the loading screen, and it could frequently be a small patrol route for 4 generators. Dead Dawg has two guaranteed generators [gallows and saloon], which don't inherently form a 3-gen. They technically have close proximity, but the killer has to get to the second floor of Saloon which will always be a long patrol route.
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as you said - saloon can have multiple 3gens, but I have yet to see single spawn where 3gen would not be "really bad" (but as we can see from picture, it can be "outright horrible") - this is very consistent on the map. Same thing with azarov's and to high degree also for suffo pit. It doesn't matter you don't know exact 3gen spawn. You can realize this within first 20s of the match at latest (if you go for it specifically). At least autoheaven and mac millan contain multiple maps - so you take a gamble is you bring 3gen killer/build with those maps. But saloon? You can be sure it will just work out.
I am pretty sure devs will not remove SM and won't fix knight's 3gen. But even if they did - there are other killers that can do almost the same (Hag, Trapper). Making it still the problem (albeit - much lesser one with the alternatives). For this reason it's just more sensible to fix maps with oppressive 3gen spawn. It's not like it will cease to exists altogether (you can always find good 3gen in the game or midwitch - it's just almost always much less oppressive). There will still be 3gens. Just reduce the worst offenders.
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Then it's issue of game RNG. But why should killer throw that game, because of weird RNG?
There is no way all three gens where blocked in a way where killer could simply body block everyone. I want screenshot of that. There was just strong 3-gen, killer saw it and decided to use it to win. Survivors didn't even try to get close.
I have had so many games where survivors abused loops where they could walk, but I couldn't. Should all of them got banned? No.
You report that as a map bug, not player.
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