Discussion about grabbing healthy survivors
TLDR:
Grabbing healthy survivors creates standoff-like situations that should not be in the game. But removing them as a whole requires some compensation buffs for killer gen defense.
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Hello people of the fog,
today I was thinking about grabs of healthy survivors, where they can occur and if they are fine or need adjustments. Beware, the post might get lengthy:
First of all, how can a killer grab a survivor and in which situations?
Grabbing a survivor is performed by the killer by using a quick attack (just tapping mouse, no lunging) on a survivor that is currently in an animation. The most common situations for grabs are the survivor vaulting, repairing a gen or unhooking, to a lesser degree when entering or exiting a locker or opening a gate. If I'm not mistaken, you can also be grabbed from cleansing or booning a totem or saboing a hook, but that would be pretty rare. You cannot be grabbed when healing someone or opening a chest (pls correct me if I'm wrong here).
Most of the grabs can be performed on healthy and injured people, only the vaulting grab can only be performed on injured people, and it may not be a fast vault.
Why/when can grabbing a survivor cause issues?
The possibility to be grabbed can create standoff situations, were both parties best approach is to do nothing to not give the other party an opening.
The most notorious of such standoffs was the infamous hatch standoff. Killers would be able to grab a survivor while they were jumping into the open hatch. So the survivors best approach was to not jump into the hatch when the killer was nearby. But the killer could also not hit the survivor with an attack, bc that would allow the survivor to jump into the hatch during the attack cooldown. Both sides were locked, the one doing it's first move would lose. Hatch standoffs were ultimately removed with the addition of End Game Collapse and the simultanious removel of hatch grabs.
The hatch standoff was special bc it prevailed even when injured. The other types of standoff situations that are still possible to this day due to grabs occur only then the survivor is still healthy, bc on injured ppl, the killer has no disadvantage to just down them.
Which other standoff-like situations are introduced by healthy grabs?
The possibility to be grabbed healthy comes into play most when repairing a generator or going for a rescue.
Unhook standoff:
For rescue attempts, the healthy grab creates a standoff-like situation where a survivor cannot unhook in front of a killer, bc that would make him vulnerable to the grab, and the killer wanting to prevent the unhook cannot hit the survivor, bc that would enable them to unhook during the hit cooldown animation. Of course the killer can usually secure a trade in this situation by just hitting the unhooker before the unhook and right after. But there may be situations where it's better for the killer to secure a second hook stage or a sacrifice, instead of a trade.
The time is on the killers side in this situation, so the unhooking survivor will usually try to bait an attack by rapidly starting the unhook animation and cancelling it. The closer the hooked survivor is to being sacrificed (timer being up) the more risky the unhooking survivor will have to bait. Either the killer times it right and gets the grab, or the survivor is hit and will proceed to unhook, forcing the killer to accept the trade or tunnel the unhooked. This unhook standoff happens often with killers camping aggressively, so consequently it was suggested multiple times to remove healthy hook grabs to make camping less effective.
Generator standoff:
For generator repairs, the healthy grab creates a standoff-like situation where a (single) survivor cannot finish repairing a generator in front of a killer, bc the killer could grab them than, and the killer cannot hit the survivor, bc that would enable them to finish the gen during the hit cooldown animation. The killer can likely trade the finished gen for a down, but preventing a gen from being done may be more valuable, esp. on the last gens.
This situation can be side-steped by the killer kicking the gen, which will apply the slight kick regression (2.5%). When the killer can do this two times, they are safe to hit one survivor and be ready again to hit before the gen can be finished by the (now injured) survivor. The survivor could also try to bait a hit similar to unhook standoff, to finish the gen during hit cooldown. This esp. comes into play when doing the last gen with Adrenaline ready.
The situation changes with multiple survivors doing the same gen, even a grab might lose the killer the gen, so it's not really a standoff anymore. Kicking the gen might also not be possible, since a gen can only be kicked when no surv works on them. Even if the killer gets a kick through, without having any way to add additional regression (Pop), they would need multiple kicks to be safe to hit a survivor afterwards without losing the gen during hit cooldown. With the surv. repairing aggressively, there's not much the killer can do to prevent it (seperate, but related issue).
Vault standoff (if vault grabs were possible on healthy survivors):
For demonstrating the strange impact on the game when grabbing healthy survivors is possible, lets imagine what would happen if healthy vault grabs where a thing: Grabbing a healthy survivor during a vault would be a great way to cut chase times in nearly half, so killers might feel incentived to chase a survivor around without hitting and building up blood lust 3. The survivor would be safe as long as they find safe pallets and strong vaults. But with weaker vaults or the killer already breathing in their neck, their only option to not get grabbed healthy would be to stand still at a vault and wait for the killer to hit them. Or straightout ignore vaults and the killer when being tailgated until being hit. The killer won't hit a healthy player near a vault, when they can afford it (in end game). Healthy vault grabs would introduce "anti-play tactics", so it's good we don't have that.
In summary, grabs of healthy survivors can create standoff-like situation and strange interactions between survivors and the killer, which break the "natural flow" of a trail. This situations force the players into utilizing the flaws / restrictions of the game mechanics itself instead of just playing the game "normally". It breaks the immersion or "logic" of the game: Why would a threatening, murdering psychopath have to wait for the survivor to do some action before they can strike?
So should healthy grabs be removed?
I would say yes. Not just for unhook grabs, which make camping more effective, but also gen grabs and all other grabs when being healthy. It would make the whole grab process more consistent, and prevent such "unnatural" situations. You could still be grabbed when injured, but when healthy, you have to be hit first.
But wouldn't that be a nerf to killer?
Yes. While we may be fine with removing healthy unhook grabs to make camping less effective, killers would have it harder to prevent a gen from the being completed with a single survivor working on it. So there should be some compensation changes/buffs if healthy grabs would get removed.
Two things I have in mind for this, which could come alone or in combination:
1) Make survivors incapacited for 3 seconds after being hit with normal or special attack
So essentially as long as the hit cooldown animation. That would prevent them to tank a hit and finish the gen in the killers face, as long as it's only one survivor. It would also prevent tanking a hit and then healing someone full / from the ground (another standoff-like interaction, but without a grab), but I would assume that happens way less than tanking a hit to finish a gen (esp. with the last one, into adre).
This change together with removed healthy grabs would be a net buff in gen defense, a single survivor won't be able to put a gen through by force anymore. But I think thats just reasonable in the context of the game (killer having the power role). And there wouldn't be healthy hook grabs anymore, so less effective camping.
2) Have killer actions take priority over survivor actions:
There are a few interactions where survivors can dictate what action a killer can perform, or moreover, what they can NOT do at a certain time:
- Kicking a gen while a survivor is repairing,
- Picking a survivor up while being healed (heal tech at the exits)
- Saboing when trying to hook (Is it? Or does hooking take prio over sabo? In my exp not).
These "jam tactics" do not make sense in the context of the game either, imo. A big, fierce, brutal killer would absolutely be able to shove a survivor aside to damage a generator or to pick someone up.
So by giving the killer actions prio over survivor actions, a killer could just walk straight to a nearly finished gen and apply the kick right away (possibly with pop), forcing repairing survivors off the gen (similar to being pushed away when gen lock perks like Deadlock trigger). This would also help against multiple survivors repairing. Only when there's no place left to apply the kick, the killer would have to hit a survivor (possibly with incap effect from 1.), so they could apply the kick imidiately after, if the gen was not finished during hit cooldown).
Both changes in combination with healthy grabs being removed would make the killer more fearsome in close interaction, making bold plays from the survivors more risky, and remove "unnatural" (standoff) situations. Camping would get less effective, survivors would have a better chance to at least secure a trade (excluding certain killer powers or exposed effects cough BUBBA cough ).
So, what do you think?
Is grabbing healthy survivors an issue at all?
Should it be changed as a whole, or only hook grabs?
What do you think of my suggestiongs? Are there problematic edge cases?
Do you have some improvements or other ideas?
Comments
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I do think that removing grabs of healthy survivors on gens is unnecessary. Your compensation changes would definitely be good though, but personally, I do not see a problem with gen grabs.
When it comes to hook grabs, I 100% agree. It's an insanely outdated mechanic that should have been removed a long time ago, and to me it's a bit insane it hasn't yet. In 99% of all cases, hook grabs only benefit camping killers, which is not good at all. Meanwhile, if a survivor is just going for a unhook while being chased, downing the unhooking survivor is more than enough for the killer to keep pressure going, because they pretty much still get a free down for nothing.
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I'm not surprised you can't recall an instance were you grabbed a heathy one. I also haven't seen it when playing killer, mainly bc. the game keeps overturning my grabs (more so with gen grabs, though). But I've seen quite some instances where a surv gets grabbed and still manages to unhook, a thing that should not be possible. Thats a thing I forget in my initial post: Grabs simply do not WORK half of the time. Which is another reason to remove them or at least make them happen less (when only happening for injured survivors).
"Usually survivors bait it out"
Sure, but when removing healthy grabs, there simply is no need for such shenanigans anymore. You can just go for the unhook straight away. I wouldn't even be against it when an unhook could not be canceled at all, so even when injured and being hit in the process, the unhook still goes through. That would weaken camping even more.
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Sure, healthy gen grabs are not as problematic as healthy hook grabs. But just for the sake of simplicity and consistency, I would prefer grabs to only ever work on injured ppl. And like I tried to explain, even when not that problematic, it creates awkward situations where you play around the fallacies of the game design instead of doing the "most sensible thing" in that situations. You wouldn't just let go of a gen and wait for the killer to do their action. You would either run or try to power through.
If hopping on and off a gen wasn't instant, so grabbing was more reliable, that would work for me as well (still would prefer the grabs being removed though).
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no it requires either stealth or oblivious survivors so its pretty difficult
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You mean for gen grabbing? That's indeed a valid point, removing healthy grabs would take away the "joy" of grabbing someone with a stealth killer, at least while they are healthy.
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yes or when you read their aura and see them hide in a locker
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No need to remove gen grabs but healthy hook grabs need to go. All they do is encourage camping and a stupid game of chicken
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It’s only hook grabs that are an issue. All other types of grabs are completely fine
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Locker grabs would not be removed, at least while they are in. Only the delayed grab after jumping out of a locker would be removed, that thing feels so rigged when it happens to you.
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Its only that gen grabs to not even work properly half of the time, at least from the killer perspective (game shows the grab, only to be validated away by the server).
And I'm thinking, if we were really to remove hook grabs of healthy ppl, why not remove that for gens as well? Why not make it work only on injured? It would at least be consistant. And would remove such "game of chicken" in other contexts as well.
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It adds an element of inherent risk to hook saves. All survivor activity should have some form of inherent risk in it.
You risk making noise and being found through actions.
You risk getting grabbed at vaults, lockers and hooks.
etc etc.
This creates the necessary tension to make survivor exciting and the killer threatening.
The fog is a scary place and you aren’t meant to feel safe in it. It’s your motivation to escape, it’s atmospheric, It’s a good thing.
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I mean by that logic if you wanted to make it consistent you’d have to remove healthy grabs from a bunch of other interactions too, such as chests, exit gates, totems, and even certain killer-related objects (alarm clocks, jigsaw boxes, etc.). I don’t think that’s really necessary. It rewards killers for successfully sneaking up on a survivor and punishes survivors who aren’t paying attention or go for risky plays. I got gen-grabbed yesterday for the first time in months with it being the last gen at 99% and I deserved it for being greedy.
Vault grabs are the only ones that have the injured requirement. They are the exception and it’s good that way because being able to vault-grab healthy survivors wouldn’t be good.
Hook grabs on the other hand, reward camping way too much in their current state.
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head on is a good counter against me bc i let them leave the locker then whack them to purposely not grab them i try to make it more fun
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Idk if we are going based on setting and atmosphere, in those stories the killer/monster ultimately lose. So in a match that last one should escape hatch or something if you want to claim atmosphere.
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There's no tension if the survivor can see the killer who can see them going for the hook save, safe on the knowledge that the killer can't hit them without risking a hook trade.
And that's the thing, a hook trade on a healthy survivor is already in the killers favour. Removing hook grabs would guaranteed hook trades and the killer is still in the better position.
Meanwhile there's no reason to reward camping killers with free healthy downs for not leaving the hook. Hook grabs just give every killer the same camping power as Bubba, providing everyone plays a ridiculous game of chicken with each others ping.
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"it’s good that way because being able to vault-grab healthy survivors wouldn’t be good." That's circular logic.
Why is it ok for Vaults but not Hooks?
Given the multitude of reasons why it would be healthier for the game, including removing undue rewards for camping and the stupid game of ping chicken.
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I guess I didn't clarify that as well as I could have, I see what you're saying. I'm not disagreeing - hook grabs on healthy survivors are dumb and reward camping far more than they have any right to.
Vault grabs only working on injured survivors makes sense because it would go against the point of vaulting if it wasn't like that. If the killer is close enough to grab you out of a vault and you could be grabbed while healthy, you might as well not vault at all. Other grabs involve survivors staying still in one place completing an objective, vaults don't.
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I completely agree with the reasons why Vault grabs don't work, while Gen/Chest/Locker grabs do.
I simply believe hook grabs fall more within the realm of Vault grabs than the others
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Vaulting grabs are a bigger issue imo. I've had times where on my screen I cleared the jump but I'm still grabbed. Very frustrating.
For hook grabs I think it should change but there should a similar level of risk for the unhooker otherwise you get people divebombing hooks/killers being unable to defend hooks in a meaningful way since the unhooked person can eat a free hit as well. If we just remove the hook grab outright that's a pretty significant one sided nerf . There would have to be an alternative than just "killer needs to hit people like normal"
The other grabs are good to keep though.
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I got little time on me so only read the TLDR and rushing my post.
Imo it should stay in the game as there needs to be a risk on survivors that decide to unhook in the killer's face or they can just dive bomb for the unhook with the killer right there and possibly both of or at least on of them will get away. Could possibly be abused by survivors to hook trade to delay a kill for a long as possible in the survivors favor.
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Keep gen/totem/glyph grabs and get rid of healthy hook-grabs. Seems fair.
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I actually would remove healthy grabs from all these, if they are even a thing. I'm farily certain you cannot be grabbed form a chest for example.
The sneak aspect is a valid one, it would be a shame to lose that, I agree.
LIke I said, the idea of removing healthy grabs fomr unhooking is not new. I just wanted to think it further, what if we removed ALL healthy hook grabs.
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The monster "wins" more often than you think and big number of stories have only one survivor at the end after a myriad of deaths, hence the old cliché of the "last girl".
The last survivor does have the hatch for that very reason. So it stacks up somewhat to scrutiny from a theme/atmosphere perspective.
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You do make a fair point but they might as well remove hook grabs all together then because its only a foolish survivor who goes for the unhook injured and the killer doesn't need to bait the grab because you just whack and down the survivor regardless of what they are doing near the hook.
Trying to play around the hook and bait the grab is actually pretty interactive play. It also means you can't just rush the hook for an auto save, you need to apply some thought which isn't a bad thing.
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Instadown killers (including Bubba) getting inadvertently buffed with removed healthy hook grabs:
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Even with healthy grab removed, you are still at a great risk of going down when the killer hits you first before you can unhook. Also no one'S talking about removing all grabs, grabbing an injured survivor would still be a thing. So when a killer really wants to prevent the unhook, they still can, as long as the unhooker is injured.
Why should a killer be guaranteed to prevent an unhook? Thats a core element of camping, which we all agree sucks. It's enough when the killer more or less is guaranteed a trade. Which is not changed when healthy hook grabs are removed. And I also replied to another one, that I'm actually in favor for unhooking not being cancelable. So when the survivor commits to it, they have to deal with the consequences.
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How is Bubba buffed? He can already chainsaw any approachin survivor down during unhooking. With healthy hook grabs, the whole unhook is prevented (at least it should be, but servers decide otherwise from time to time). If thats gone, Bubba HAS to use his chainsaw to secure a down, and that gives room for misplays (going into tantrum) and for the unhooked to zoom away (as long as bubba does not catch up). Removing healthy hook grabs actually nefs Bubba camping potential, even when just slightly.
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Keep glyph grabs? I actually think glyph grabbing is the stupidest interaction, it's not an objective that progresses the game or helps the team in any way.
In my opinion glyph grabbing shouldn't be thing at all. If you're risking doing the glyph in the killer's face and get smacked because they don't respect it, fair, but that risk that doesn't help your team at all should not result in an instant down. Some of the glyphs take an extended period of time to do and getting grabbed off the glyph that already took you two minutes to find because Ghost Face came around the corner is utter BS.
I'm pretty neutral on other grabs, but I absolutely disagree with getting grabbed off a non-objective archive.
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Having healthy hook grabs in the game IS preventing the unhook if the killer gets it. It's possible right now to get grabbed during unhook but still finish the unhook, but thats a glitch. It's not meant to work this way. But you know, if we somehow could have this basekit, so even when grabbing the hooked survivor is always freed, that I'm totally fine with keeping the grab. But getting bonus pressure by grabbing a surv AND prevent the unhook additionally, thats an issue, bc it makes camping so much more viable.
On the contrary, how does removing the grab make a trade impossible? You hit before they can unhook, and hit after, like you would do now. The only difference is, there would be no chicken game at the hook, but the surv would unhook right away. So you gotta be prepared for that. We could also think about a grace period where a freshly hooked survivor cannot be unhooked for some seconds, like unhook can only appear when the hooking animation is over (survivor crying / entity appearing). So unhook bombing would not be possible right away.
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Is glyph grabbing really a thing? I only ever received or dealt hits when interacting with glyphs.
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But that scenario is not different in live,. With a coordinated team, they will position themselves so that you cannot grab the unhooker. And when hitting, they will body block and run out of gate (if its in end game). The grab will not help you there, except when they mess up. But then you would have gotten the down with hits as well.
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I got grabbed off a 90% yellow glyph once and I'm still not over it lol, one more skill check and i was done for that round but then im on a hook and have to spend another minute to find the damn thing again
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grabs on gens are 100% fine, especially when you consider stealth killers and very low terror radius builds. The only change I'd be ok with is healthy hook grabs. I think if someone gets to the hook and you can't hit them fast enough to down them, they should probably get the save. It's a camp deterrent, it only comes up situationally, and the game of chicken looks really stupid.
I have maybe only encountered the "finishing a gen" situation maybe once or twice in my 3000 hours played so I'm not worried about that one.
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*New patch removes healthy hook grabs*
Hurray! Face camping is no more!
*Gets matched with Bubba, Billy, Trickster, and Myers*
Wtf. We didn't ask for this
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The only grab I'd be ok with having removed is healthy locker grabs. Not the pull mind you, just the mid animation grab. And glyph grabs because that's just dumb... the survivor finishing a glyph doesn't hurt the killer at all.
Every killer in the game should have the ability to defend an objective even/especially if a survivor tries to do it in their face. That's what healthy grabs allow. The 1 in the 1v4 to overpower 1 of the 4 no matter what.
On my opinion healthy locker grabs can go because they aren't objectives. They, like vaults, are defenses so should probably follow the same rules as vaults.
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At least games againat Bubba, Billy and Myers are more fun for me than say Nurse or Spirit. Trickster though ...
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"The only grab I'd be ok with having removed is healthy locker grabs. Not the pull mind you, just the mid animation grab. And glyph grabs because that's just dumb... the survivor finishing a glyph doesn't hurt the killer at all."
I did not mention lockers in my initial post, but that's exactly what I had i mind for them. Remove mid animation healthy grabs. There are so many instances I witnessed as a killer or had as a survivor where i wanted to vault shack window, but jumped into one locker, and then the killer grabbing the survivor when exiting the locker. Getting a hit is enough punishment in this situation.
About glyph grabs, thats beyond stupid.
"Every killer in the game should have the ability to defend an objective even/especially if a survivor tries to do it in their face. That's what healthy grabs allow. The 1 in the 1v4 to overpower 1 of the 4 no matter what."
Thats why I proposed compensation buffs for gen defense. For hook grabs thats not so easy though, bc that would strengthen camping again. A killer should be able so secure a trade, but not to prevent the unhook.
"On my opinion healthy locker grabs can go because they aren't objectives. They, like vaults, are defenses so should probably follow the same rules as vaults."
I like that reasoning.
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