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Exhaustion perks are always going to be a problem
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When you say "fine" against nurse and blight you mean "useless". Distance doesn't really matter against those killers. This is kind of my point. Killer mains are fine with perks that do not work well against them. But the second there is a perk that directly counters their power/build they are up in arms and it's apparently unfair.
Some killers have DH counter in their base kit, some don't.
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No excaution perk is a problem when the survs are not as experienced. When they're good and using them right they make a huge difference in chase time. For the killer it means more gens are done as only distance counts for survs in this game, esp. on bigger maps. Sure they can start another chase, but the other survs will most likely do the same and aren't even injured yet. Good survs can tank hits in a door / small passage to prevent a down and there is no counterplay for that most of the time. Again, for good survs it's all about getting as much distance as possible. Because they know the killers objective will take much longer than the survs objective. And than the killer is forced to tunnel/camp even more because there's just not enough time to go for more hooks.
Also you want more interaction with killers. Against good survs most of the time it doesn't even count as a chase as they are just too far away. Holding W is a big problem by itself, excaustion perks only extend that.
The main problem aren't excaution perks tho. It's MMR - genrush vs. killrush. And BHVRs fear of nerfing SWFs instead of buffing solos. Because good solos will never be the same caliber as good SWFs, no matter how many infos you give them (and things like basekit BT are free on top of that for SWFs).
Would be something different if each MMR bracket would have different balance, i said this about ranks before. MMR is like a fun sponge on most multiplayer games. But when it's not balanced for good players like in DBD, it's even worse. A ~200hs noob protection instead would be fine.
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It's not really about it being challenging, it's just that the killer role attracts certain type of people who are desperate to be the power role, they want to be able to kill, ruin the fun, hold hostage, etc. the other side and make sure that group can't fight back. In other games like Call of Duty those kind of people would easily be btfod by the opponent because enemy players can kill you back, but here all survivors can do is throw pieces of wood and run.
It's obvious things like Exhaustion perks are gonna be an issue to those people since they ruin their powerfantasy. You can't pull a "TAKE THAT DAVID! YOU'RE LITERALLY MY SCHOOL BULLY! AND YOU MEG! YOU'RE LITERALLY THAT GIRL THAT REJECTED ME IRL! SO I'M GONNA TUNNEL YOU!" if the survivor they were gonna use to take their anger away can dead hard to safety.
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This guy gets it.
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No the issue has always been that a perk like Sprint Burst saves you a moment against a nurse. You force one blink to miss and then she blinks twice and is right on you again. In most situations you are better off having Sprint Burst vs not against a nurse as the perk will give you a little bit more time in any situation.
But what does it do against a Huntress? If she doesn't know you have it and maybe swings you can use that exhaustion perk to get to an obstacle where it becomes not worth the time to chase you. That's really not fair (yes this is a map design issue as well but we can focus on the exhaustion problem).
The problem with DH is that it almost always saves TONS of time for your team no matter what killer you play.
As I said before : exhaustion would be fine if there was a counter perk that penalized a team of survivors while they were exhausted. As an example : the killer has a perk maybe called despair that reveals your aura to the killer if you are exhausted. Don't want to be seen? Don't run an exhaustion perk.
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To your final point. When would you ever not run an exhaustion perk if your goal was to win? The answer is never, you would always run an exhaustion perk. That in and of itself tells you there’s a problem. There should never be perks that are an automatic auto lock in every single game with zero thought of not running them, that’s inherently a sign of a flaw in design. You should always be considering pros and cons of if anything is worth running. There is literally only up side on exhaustion perks as a category. Exhaustion perks as a category and level of power far, far exceed all other perks in the game they would consider as alternatives, hence why they’d never not be ran. That’s why they’re a problem.
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Wraith really doesn't care, cloak and catch right up.
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Good.
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They're not a problem. They function as really a once-a-chase aid against a killer, which also benefits from a faster base speed (except Nurse, although she easily compensates for that), bloodlust, perks, their powers and unique add-ons which may also grant speed increases or slowdown.
If survivors no longer had exhaustion perks, killers would become overwhelming and some even will have no weaknesses a survivor may gain an upper hand with.
Finally, every match I have as a killer has exhaustion perks. If they were that much of a problem, I'd be losing every single trial. There are plenty of counters and plays throughout the trial, which cannot be won on the basis a survivor used Lithe once through a vault.
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A chase is won once it lasts around 1 minute... so basically every chase at high level.
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I mentioned that dead hard was a problem. I didn't at all say if a perk exists its fine. Some perks need nerfing, but any of the current exhaustion perks don't need to be touched. I'm still yet to see a valid reason from anyone as to why they are a "problem". The original poster was basically making the argument that this mechanic of perks help survivors, therefore nerf them. Which is not a valid argument obviously lol, because any perk ever helps their respective side. So tell me why exhaustion perks are unbalanced or OP, oh but they aren't so no one can.
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2nd paragraph is straight fax. Only against knight or nemesis can it be truly said to be free. Honestly feelin like the word "free" should just be banned from dbd community
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Jokes on you. I still run dead hard and coh in my builds. Its just a fun playstyle for me even if they nerfed it even more. Love being in the killers face when it matters and coh makes me even more coordinated and responsive to my team in new coh.
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"Almost always" hardly. And it benefits only IF you can trigger it successfully which is easier said than done. not the guaranteed trigger people keep saying it is. And it isn't like killers can't hard counter DH, legion, deathslinger, trapper. These are just the ones that have hard counters to DH in their basekit.
Any addon/perk that causes exhaustion can nix a potential DH play. The only time you can make it a guaranteed trigger is at a pallet. And even then killer can hold back and all you've done is gained the time you would from a pallet. In any other situation DH is counterable by simply not swing at the first available instant. It's a mind game, just requires skill to counter.
It's punishing if you swing into it for sure. But it's definitely avoidable and counterable whether you use straight up mechanical counters or simply skilled gameplay.
P.s. the perk idea sounds kinda interesting, but constant aura read on an exhausted surv would be absolutely cracked. Perhaps a 5 sec aura read when surv becomes exhausted.
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-"but constant aura read on an exhausted surv would be absolutely cracked."
Remember for a minute that survivors want to be chased. A perk like that might sound horrible but it would encourage people to be chased.
I'd say sure 10 seconds of vision for Nurse/Blight but everyone else would be fine with if you are exhausted then you are visible (with an exception list - Oni for example would only get 10 seconds if in his power, same for MM, etc.)
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I also wish to verse anything other than the same 6 killers I play against everyday but you don’t see me bitching.
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Were that the case then every match at high level would be a 4 man escape. It's not, so exhaustion perks are not a problem that needs looking at.
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Ain't no way you're trying to argue that current COH is better than when it was. The same healing values but with unlimited self healing at 16 seconds.
Just no.
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It is not cause high MMR is not SWF and the MMR range goes from 1600 to 3000 :)
So high MMR does not mean anything. Fact is a good killer cannot win against a good SWF when there is no perks/items restriction.
Kill rate in tournaments is not that good while there are forbidden perks, unique perk usage and unique item usage without add-ons and still the survivors have the upper head.
And the stats do not mean anything as the kill rate is inflated by hard tunnelers.
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Duuuuude, stop tripping! Exhaustion perks are a strong class of perks for survivors, just as aura reading perks are for killers. There is nothing WRONG in the other side having tools that are actually helpful, the problem starts when one of your tools is outclassing every other on in its class by a big margin, that it isnt a choice anymore, but becomes more or less a no-brainer.
"Nuking stuff from orbit" should not be the answer. I am not sure if DH is now well balanced, but I am happy for the change and that it sees less play; I hope that this isnt just another false lull like after 6.1 when DH nearly completely disappeared for 2 weeks, then everyone noticed that its still as strong as ever and adapted. If DH still provides a benefit to a dedicated user, but isnt just the "best in class", thats great! We should strife for every perk to be somewhat fun and cool to use, but nuking everything from orbit into smithereens should only be done sparingly and with the most outrageous outliers. Sadly, BHVR has a history of overdoing things more often then not. As a killer main, I am feeling the destruction of nearly out whole gen-regression line, but on the other hand, I have had a couple of very fun games since the update by focusing on chases and aura reading.
So, exhaustion perks will always be strong, but thats no problem. And all the doom sayers claiming that the SB meta will be even more obnoxious then the DH meta and that we would curse this change, this people are just coping hard and never understood the problem with DH in the first place.
BUT it would be nice, if nerfs in the future would be done with a bit of a more delicate hand. Nerfs should go hand in hand with buffs to other, neglected areas. Take away stuff with one hand, but hand us new toys to explore with the other. Idealy no choice should be utterly garbage and just replacing one meta with another isnt doing anything for the long-term health of the game, thats a short booster shot at best. Maybe BHVR should scarp most perks and give each survivor and killer just one signature perk that you can unlock and level with them and move a couple of the others into the open pool. By now we got hundreds of perks and thats just too much to handle and balance. Some 30 general perks and one strong signature perk per character should offer enough design space in each direction.
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Good thing I never mentioned stats then!
There are videos online alone which show a good killer versus good survivors and the killer winning. And that is a tiny portion of all games played.
Also, we're not talking competition level here (although even some of those have been killer wins, restrictions or not). I won't argue either way whether it's survivor or killer with the upperhand, but again those high level games it would just be 0k every time, which it isn't.
Regardless, competition has got nothing to do with regular games and I find it confusing when this is brought up, because it's irrelevant to the 99% or so of players who are not in competition.
My own opinion is that if exhaustion perks were a massive problem, then every killer would be getting 0k or 1k. It's not happening in that way. And I don't find it a problem personally, so I am certain that's the same for many, many others.
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Lets also remember that not every surv wants to be chased. Newer/midlevel surv players rely on stealth a lot. Many of my early escapes were more down to my stealth versus my lacklustre ability to run a killer on chase.
Players who want to be chased have an easy time getting up in killer's face and provoking them into chase. Aura reads while exhausted would suck. Admittedly I'd be all for a permanent aura read if you've made a successful DH. And aura reads on anyone exhausted would make fearmonger a really good info perk. But it would most punish the weaker survs who already have a bad time of it. Whilst not really doing anything to experienced survs since they can run good chases regardless.
People need to remember, just because they see high mmr survs when they play killer. Doesn't mean the whole game is like that. Ran a few solo q surv games last night to clear a challenge or two. 5 deaths and 1 survival. Five 4k games and a 2k game. Feels balanced man.
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-"Many of my early escapes were more down to my stealth versus my lacklustre ability to run a killer on chase."
This may come as a surprise but there was a time that stealth was stronger than good chase skills. Do you remember when Shelter woods had a 76% kill rate?
Also if people wanted to be stealthy they would never appear "on radar" without an exhaustion perk.
Also it would make sense if killer addons that inflicted exhaustion prevented you from seeing the survivor (because catch 22 mechanics are stupid).
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exhaustion was not invented for the killer to get wallhacks. exhaustion was invented to prevent stacking chase perks on survivor. There are perks to counter exhaustion. they're called mindbreaker and blood echo, but they kinda suck at countering exhausting. Mindbreaker can be exploited by SB users to 95% sprint burst and blood echo requires survivor to be injured. perhaps buff those perks for killer player's like OP and Blueberry that dislike exhaustion.
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Tbh, I've never been bothered by the other exhaustion perks as a killer or even survivor player. Dh was unique because it gave survivors essentially extra lives in the past (and still does but in a much less significant way).
Some of the exhaustion perks are hot garbage though and need looked at
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I love the configuration that takes advantage of the information that DH has been weakened. In the first chase, balance, etc. are used, and in the chase after the hook, DH is used in front of pallets and windows. This is a popular configuration for Korean Survivors and is worth spending 2 perk slots.
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Ppl have complained about DH for years without seeing that 4 survivors with SB is exactly the same.
Devs nerf DH but doesn't touch SB or Lithe... those perks need to be nerfed to the ground.
SWFs abuse them + communication = survivors are 50 meters away from you before even seeing you.
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And if SB and Lithe get nerfed it will be onto balanced landing and overcome
Exhaustion perks are fine. Strong yes but something a lot of killer powers and perks/add-ons can counter
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Fact is they are too OP vs a SWF that communicate on the killer's position.
And they are generally too OP when a single SB gives the survivors 20 seconds of free chase in an environment where a gen just needs 90 seconds to be done soloe, 42 seconds with some perks.
20 seconds free chase 3 times (if you tunnel th survivor) + 30 seconds loop 3 times = 2min30 = all gens are done.
In all my games since 6.7 = all gens done in less than 5 minutes, all my games. I do not have time to hit gens, i do not have time to break pallets, i do not have time to break doors... and for each chase, they hold forward to go on the other side of the map to prevent me to defend a 3 gen.
Whatever i cannot even defend a 3 gens cause there is no regression anymore, they do the gen, flee before i'm at the gen and repeat this on all 3 gens.
Only Nurse and Blight can catch up at this point.
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"exhaustion was not invented for the killer to get wallhacks. exhaustion was invented to prevent stacking chase perks on survivor. There are perks to counter exhaustion. they're called mindbreaker and blood echo, but they kinda suck at countering exhausting"
And that's exactly my point :the perks to counter exhaustion suck. There is no real counter that feels punishing.
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Well I started playing august last year so no never saw the early state of the game.
Even without killer inflicted exhaustion revealing you (that'd be a nightmare to differentiate when coding) it would still shaft newer players and punish them hard for using what are really essential perks for survs to run.
Just because high mmr survs use something effectively doesn't mean we need to nerf it all around. There's more to think about when you balance a game. Can't just nerf everything that frustrates killer mains.
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I absolutely love how well that was said. Bravo.
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I'm glad you agree that all gen regression perks are a problem... because why wouldn't you run them?
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That would still be disgusting if paired with Mindbreaker. Like Surveillance on crack...
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God... it's almost like... making it so we can't afford to do anything but gens, because everything else wastes more and more time with every patch, means that if you don't rush the gens asap, it ends with a 4k nearly every game. I also would love to have your survivors in my games. I usually end up having to do 3-4 gens myself minimum because no one else does them.
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It is rarely soloQ players, most high MMR players i face are duoQ+ (same tag name or country).
For the time being drained by everything, it is way more impactfull for the killer. A killer (not tier S) cannot win in a 4-5 minutes trial. Just crossing the map takes too long to keep up with the gens.
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To your surprise I actually do agree they are a problem as well.
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Can’t say I am surprised that someone is actually complaining about two survivor perks that just got heavily nerfed while Pain Resonance, Deadlock, Thrilling Tremors, and Jolt are still prevalent. Good riddance to COB and Overcharge.
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Get good or find a new game, sorry.
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-"Can't just nerf everything that frustrates killer mains."
But the reverse is obviously true; anything that annoys survivor mains on a long enough time line gets obliterated (not nerfed).
See : NOED, Spirit, Billy, Pop, Every Gen Regression perk, etc.
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It's not prevalent. I'm just using the other options because they've all been nerfed in the last year. Eventually Dead lock will also be nerfed just because of its high usage.
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im genuine able to say as a killer main i love exhaustion perks i dont want to stomp their whole team and if they are better than me without them i say well play and move on
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Since the patch I’ve seen like 2 DH’s total, and I reached Iri 1 as killer (Twins main) last night.
Sprint Burst & Lithe are easy to handle - just bait them out. Leave the surv, circle back to them for the hit/down when SB/Lithe are on cooldown. Or find another surv.
Not all survs run exhaustion perks.
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Dead Hard isn't that much of a problem as before, now the problem are probably the fact that 1 chase = 2/3 gens done, drop the chase to patrol gens and you'll see exit gates getting powered just after if you're playing M1 Killer.
It wouldn't be that much of a problem, if hitting a survivor didn't give them infinite haste + dead hard + decisive strike + exponential + sprint burst + balance landing + lithe and whatever invulnerability/auto-escape perks that are getting run nowaday.
Patrolling gens is auto 4 man escape if no camping/tunneling, and anyway most of the time you won't even see the other survivors so you'll be forced to tunnel one guy.
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I, for one, am very happy to see that some people are still using nerfed perks. I think BHVR has a bad habit of nerfing something into oblivion instead of balancing it, and while I do think sometimes you just need to KILL a perk to change the meta, I think they do it too often.
I encountered my first dead hard today and thought "Good on you, bruh, sticking with it!" You know why I thought that? Because he didn't have DH up every single time I chased him like in the old days. He got to use it once and it bought their team some time.
I personally use the crap out of COH now but it's bad for my health because I get so. freaking. mad. at survivors who wont come heal me. I get injured, run to the area where they can see my aura, and tbag trying to get their attention. That said, the perk is great now and I am having a heck of a time using COH and shadowstep on The Game, whipping around corners with no scratch marks to lose the killer.
Anyway back to the main point, I do not think exhaustion perks are a "problem". I am a killer main, and I only play survivor to mess around and relax, but I think exhaustion perks are necessary friction. Sure, they will always be the bane of killers existence because exhaustion perks are designed to get our hopes up then watch as a survivor zooms off. That's fine, that's a tool a survivor has in their arsenal. Endurance is the same thing.
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Tbh most of those regression perks needed to be toned down. Not nuked from orbit like bhvr has done but things like eruption and pain res could carry games on their own. And the CoB overcharge combo was way too strong.
There is a big difference between annoying and oppresive. SB and lithe give survs a much needed tool in chase, a one shot to use in each chase to gain distance and extend the chase. The old regression meta made it nearly impossible to finish gens if killer had half a brain. As for the killer specific nerf idk what state they were in before, but spirit is still strong. Dread to think what she was like beforehand.
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not true
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I have to disagree sorry - those perks were fine but it was Knight/SM who needed a proper rework.
Those perks did too much with their kit. CHange their kit not nuke the perks so most killers cant even run regression anymore.
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Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Old eruption would absolutely destroy solo q teams because there was no way to reliably avoid it except to just not work the gen at all which would lose more progress in the long run. And pain res was so spammable, plus it's synergy worh DMS made it pretty much the same as eruption just more avoidable. Inused to use pain res a lot on my sweaty builds and it really carried games.
You can't base perk balance just on the performance at high levels of play. A good swf with VC could counter them reasonably easily. But teams with less co-ordination (i.e. most of them) would get crippled by these perks.
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-"Old eruption would absolutely destroy solo q teams because there was no way to reliably avoid it except to just not work the gen at all which would lose more progress in the long run."
And DH still is very strong while Eruption is very "meh". The nerf DH needed was no sprint burst but you get endurance.
-"You can't base perk balance just on the performance at high levels of play."
That's not fair when most of the killer perks they implement are severely limited b/c Nurse and Blight are awesome with no perks.
Balance needs to look at low level/mid level/high level. Some games have different rules for each tier.
Most of the maps are not fair to most of the killers because they are just too big.
Otz has a video where he looks at Nurse and Blight vs super strong survivors and determins the game is "fine" b/c Nurse and Blight exist. Excuse me but where's the world's best doctor to compete with the #1 survivor team? There's actually no need to play that game out b/c we know what happens : Doctor gets owned.
Most of the killer cast gets Destroyed by 4 man SWFs running best items.
I will remind you that SWFs have an escape rate that is in some cases 15% higher. Amd we just give SWF a blind eye because changing it in any way to make it fair would be "less fun for survivor".
You can't have the downhill street both ways for survivor if you want the game to be fair.
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