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Game needs to be more tolerable for new players
All in the title really. For more detail this game is amazingly unpleasant for new players. New survivors are in for constant rounds of dying all because they cant make a chase last longer than 30 seconds. And be realistic, how many gamers are going to watch youtube vids and spend hours and hours practicing and getting hooked just to bump their escape percentage from 15 to maybe 25 percent at best.
Versus the killer side where your first 100 games are absolute walkovers until you hit higher mmr and start getting ######### on by bully squads.
I've picked it up and tolerated it for maybe 30 days of play time since August. My regular swf won't play anymore because of toxic killers plus the difficulty curve and I can't get any one of my friends into the game, either they refuse to try it because it has a reputation for being particularly awful for new players, or get 20 hours in and give up because they just constantly die. State pf play atm isn't much fun. My surv games are just constant deaths and killer games flip flop between absolute walk overs that are extremely boring when I use a killer I'm good with and a sweaty build, and tedious impossible to win games when I use mechanically weak killers for daily rituals. Maybe 10% of my killer games actually feel chsllenging yet attainable.
We've had surv nerfs that do even more to cripple solo q and have really done nothing tangible to actually nerf SWFs. Whilst the killer nerfs make it even easier for high level swfs to genrush. Like give us something that helps low/mid mmr. A proper tutorial that gives survs an idea on how to run a proper chase, a way to train against killer bots so survs can see how dlc killer powers work without buying them, voice chat for survs rolling handicaps depending on how the match progress (looking at gen progress versus hook states and death) fix the exit gate spawns so last surv has a slight chance of escaping if hatch is closed.
Comments
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I hope that BHVR eventually adds an interactive spectator mode, a "spirit state/echo" for deceased Survivors that plays a role in opening/Locating Hatch. Let Survivors run around the Trial and do stuff when Sacrificed for BP as well, of course not interact with the objects that "Living" Survivors or the Killer can interact with. (Or see the Killer or non-Sacrificed Survivors).
Could try to integrate a tutorial mode there by having AI revenants/goobly mooglies chasing spirit Survivors in this Warped Trial.
Maybe have some of those revenants bleed into the Trial and chase Living Survivors if the Killer has too large a disparity between generators completed and Hooks/Kills.
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Without forcing new players to grind through hours of tutorial games, I'm not sure there is any other way to make it more welcoming. The very format of the game being an asymmetrical PVP game, means that you have the 'power' side for the killer, and the 'numbers' side for the survivors. The thing that gives the 'numbers' side their advantage, is coordination, something that only comes from experience, meanwhile the 'power' is always there from the start for the killer.
The best thing new players can do, is play killer. This gives you the initial advantage against the players you should be being matched with initially, and moreover, it will give you the experience you will ultimately need to play survivor at a higher level. Playing killer makes you a better survivor and vice versa, so you're getting that 'head start' on survivor by playing some killer first.
Other than that, it's mindset. You need to be able to accept a loss graciously (evidently easier said than done because very few players can do this). You're ultimately playing a horror game, where you can play as a weak human survivor, against supernatural killing machines. You're going to die, a lot, so get used to it. You wouldn't go into a Souls game expecting to win first time, the learning curve for DBD is kinda the same, you need that experience to get to a point where you can realistically 'compete'.
That said, I do think new players could do with some sort of 'incentive', to soften the blow and ease the initial grind a little. It's pretty rough when you have no perks to play with, and because you're losing a lot you're not gaining much BP to be able to afford to unlock more perks. A newcomer bonus of +100% BP for the first 30 hours of play or something would be pretty neat.
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Instead of starting with 11 characters (7 survivors and 5 killers), I would like new players to have 2 characters (Dwight & Trapper) and have 90.000 shards to buy their 9 favorite original characters instead. That way we will have more diversity in characters at low MMR too.
And starts with 1 mil BP for them to instantly dunk on a character to prestige 1 for teachable, or play as their wish (have 1 mil BP to have a choice that either play to gain more, or prestige a character before get a few perks before their very first match
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I agree that DBD is not friendly for new players, especially survivors. I have friends I play lots of different games with but none of them was "hooked" on DBD. We played 10-20 games as SWF and they were dying constatly.
The big issue is that playing DBD as survivor you don't feel any progression towards the win, only generators. But if you are new you will be dead before completing the first generator by your own. Which in the end makes new players feel like they did nothing and died = wasted time.
Also one of EXTREMELY unfriendly things is perk description. My friends spent half of played time on reading them. Making shorter perk descriptions would be a big help for sure. I made a post with visual suggestions: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/368961/shorter-and-clearer-perk-descriptions
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See i can accept losses. I'm not expecting to escape games all the time. But going on 10+ death streaks is nothing unusual and that just isnt fun. Souls like games are designed for people who like an experience akin to repeatedly bashing their heads against a brick wall. Multiplayer games are not meant to be like that. It's not a pleasant experience. Like one escape in 5 matches would be fine but game balance and mmr doesn't work that way unless you have a dedicated swf with all good players. Just like I find constantly winning as killer extremely dull.
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Due to the asymmetrical format, if you were to rectify this by making survivor 'easier' for newbies, you would inadvertently make killer harder for higher levels of skill. The small advantage offered to inexperienced and uncoordinated survivors, would be utterly devastating in the hands of experienced coordinated survivor teams. What the killer makes up for in experience, survivors make up for multiplied by four.
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True.
I don't know how this problem would be solved, but it surely doesn't help retain player when you're still struggling and considered a baby at 400h of playing.
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This is why I've made the suggestions at the bottom of my post, if you'd cared to read that far. Vc wouldn't benefit survs because the alteady have it, rolling handicaps would actively nerf swf a bit while helping new/solo q survs and improving endgame for lone survs wouldn't benefit swfs because they never reach that point.
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More tutorials with different killer bots wouldn't be a bad thing, but they wouldn't be mandatory, and it would still be impractical to presume every new player will have played them all. Good option for those who want to use them though.
You haven't really explained what 'rolling handicaps' are.
Built in voice chat is a whole other topic with significant issues and implications for the game. It's fine the way it is as an 'opt in' system. Those who want to use it and are playing with friends can do so, and those who want to go it alone and persevere don't have to be pressured into using it.
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I’ve been playing for a long time but I still remember what it was like being a new player. I would get downed almost immediately every game. I watched a lot of YouTube videos and practiced my own skills in the game and eventually I got better. After 1,400 hours I’m still not great but way better than I used to be and now feel very confident that I can last long enough in a chase to buy my team plenty of time to work in gens.
It just takes time and practice, like pretty much every other game. I don’t know of any other game where you can just jump in and be a really good player, so I’m not sure what people’s expectations are.
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there should be a new player game mode where they face random bots with random perks all while getting rewards
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and skill checks are easier
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This game barely handles two zombies or Knight's guards moving around without suffering performance issues. So, trying to run and entire extra interactive game layer to the degree you're suggesting would probably crash the game outright. Which is sad cause honestly the game needs more stuff to do in general.
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- Oh and about your suggestions. Several days ago I made similar one about adjusting repairspeed based on gen/survivors ratio.This should lead to more balanced games overall https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/373702/repair-speed-dependent-on-number-of-gens-and-survivors-left
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I feel like this is true for most PvP games tbh, especially if the game has been out for awhile. Like if you try to jump into Call of Duty or something, you're gonna get absolutely steamrolled as a new player.
a way to train against killer bots so survs can see how dlc killer powers work without buying them
The devs said they are working on Killer bots, just so you know.
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So rolling handicaps is something I made a thread on a while ago. Basically the idea is game balance shifts as thevgame progresses. Tracking hook stages, gen progress and survivors alive as the metrics. If game is in surv's favour then gen repair speeds slow down and killer gain movement speed and maybe action speed buff, if game is in killer's favour then gen repair speeds increase and killer's move speed is nerfed a little. Properly balanced it could make the game a lot more enjoyable since most games are absolute landslides and it'd help mitigate that.
Universal vc would be better imo, it's not so much an opt in as a you need to log into discord and make a channel. Basekit vc would be utilised by a lot of players and be very useful for lower mmr teams to have some degree of coordination.
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Ok, so I've suggested something similar before in relation to gen speeds, basically as a balancing mechanic to lessen the effect of snowballing. Not sure it should apply to killer speeds though, but I would love for more killer perks that conditionally affect movement speed.
VC is a bad idea for DBD. It's not difficult to use already, if you really want to use VC then you can find groups to play with and chat via Discord. Meanwhile many players do not want to use VC, because they enjoy playing solo, because they don't want to be subjected to verbal abuse or irritated by random noises or other survivors playing music down the mic, or simply because they can't focus on the game sounds while someone is talking, etc. Not wanting to use VC is an entirely valid choice and players shouldn't be pressured into using it.
VC offers a significant advantage, by making it the default and an 'opt out' system, you are expecting survivors to use it, and not using it would be considered a hindrance to your team. This would result in the exclusion of non-VC'ers through lobby dodging or in-game sandbagging, it would also affect game balance, making VC'er survivors more effective than non-VC'ers. Kill rates in general would fall with more people using VC, which would result in killer buffs, which would further adversely affect non-VC'ers, widening the gap between Solo survivors and SWF/VC'ers.
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Voice chat is not a good idea. Most people would just use it to flame their teammates. Plus, I don't wanna deal with people blasting music or sandbagging me because I chose to opt-out of voice chat. It would also invalidate a slew of perks like Kindred, Bond, etc. and they'd all need to be reworked. We're too far into the game's life cycle to add a major feature like this.
I kinda like the rolling handicap idea though.
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Without forcing new players to grind through hours of tutorial games, I'm not sure there is any other way to make it more welcoming.
To be honest the new tutorial for both sides was an improvement but the survivor one absolutely needs an overhaul and you could scrap the current one in favor of adding live tooltips that don't take away control in the bot game that's on Ironworks Of Misery
A more brief positive tutorial that simulates actual gameplay would be more proper than what we have.
Current tutorial has issues with the following
- Doesn't let you wiggle when you have the chance to see what it does
- Doesn't emphasize that struggling on hook can be bad until you watch the survivor die in the killer tutorial
- Doesn't put you in a proper chase
- Doesn't explain Hex Totems
- Constantly takes control away from the player during important moments when it should be possible to show them what they need to know without taking the camera focus away
I would normally say starting as killer is good as you mention here
The best thing new players can do, is play killer.
For the most part I would agree but again the tutorial doesn't show you how to chase survivors around tiles or for that matter that survivors should be using them. The main issue though is when I tried a long time ago to get a friend to learn killer first it was ruined by smurf accounts. DBD has so many of them because the game is always so cheap and steam sharing lets you just make a fresh account sharing a copy of DBD that at times you have veteran players purposefully playing on a newbie account to ruin new players games or as their excuse is "Just a chill game".
I agree with most of your points though - especially losing. Some players don't understand that someone is going to lose in this game. The tutorial could easily teach this but also the post game stream does feel pretty ######### regardless when you outright lose due to the audio design and message you get.
I still feel the best decision is BHVR should stop backburnering the tutorial. Even with the revamped one it feels like it wasn't fully planned out. It's better than what it was but I'm absolutely confident a lot of your feedback and everyone else's wouldn't be an issue if there was a little more effort put into the tutorials - at least the survivors tutorial. The scripted AI holds back a lot of the time which doesn't teach players anything. The best example is the game not giving you a chance to wiggle as survivor or when killer the survivors don't wiggle for you.
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Being able to tell their friends where the hatch is for an EZ escape would be BS and unfair. The Killer does not get anyone tell him where it is, so why should Survivors get a guardian angel guiding them to a free escape?
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I kinda miss the days when games didn't force you through a 30min, sometimes longer, hand holding tutorial that tells you what each button does. Games used to be brutal and hard with little to no instruction.
Maybe that's why I kinda like DBD it's pretty brutal and gritty gameplay, not the most new player friendly.
What we need is solo survivor mode with bots. We have it for killer which is great. Wrack up some deaths and escapes in bot mode before diving into the deep end of online play.
It works for DBD as your game performance isn't based on what happened in your previous game. For things like mmo's where you progress and power up, to lose all your gear or progress to a kitted out veteran stifles the ability to really get into the game. But in DBD each game is an independent event. If you keep at it you are eventually gonna get something out of it, but like anything you are gonna eat a bunch of losses before that happens.
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Nowadays this game is pretty brutal for new players i guess.
The basics are very simple but all the things you need to know to have a chance to escape are much more than it seems.
I thought maybe all basic perks from the og survs and killers should be unlocked at tier 1 when you start. Helps a bit with the initial grind - which is stay veeeerrrry much.
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I feel like new players are discouraged from queueing in as a survivor.
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Because it retains the "work together or die" design of the Survivor role that is lost as Survivors lose Generator output potential through Sacrifices? It also means that Survivors can "neglect to help with hatch" if they think the other Survivor wasn't pulling their weight, tugging more at social dynamics instead of Hatch being a baked in system feature. (Also it would keep in mind SWF comms, so pointing out where the hatch is would also be integrated into SoloQ)
Killer performance only really having a meaningful completionist reward mechanism payout when getting a 4K and not at any lower threshold during a Trial is another topic, but tightly bound to Hatch. (The Killer has no Trial Milestone, such as with Survivors and Generators. When the Exit Gate is Powered, gameplay goals change for everyone. When a Survivor is Killed, there are no changes in gameplay goals).
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Because it retains the "work together or die" design of the Survivor role that is lost as Survivors lose Generator output potential through Sacrifices?
Except that's the point of an Asym game like this; The Survivors lose power as they are picked off. The Killer gains power as the equation moves closer to 1v1.
You want to suddenly give Survivors the ability for a free escape by allowing dead Survivors to guide their friends to the hatch, which would be something the Killer cannot counter in any way, shape, or form. All because the game's power balance is working as intended?
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That is not how this game is asymmetrical.
The Killer has a Power and base stats/information advantage that are greater than a Survivors base stats.
Assuming equal skill, the Killer will always win in a 1v1 (though Survivor skill and map resources will augment how long that takes).
Survivors are given goals to accomplish that allow them to remove themselves from a losing situation, exit gates and hatch.
Given Survivors will always lose the 1v1 eventually, during which they are unable to work on those goals, it becomes necessary for other Survivors to work on those goals while the Killer is preoccupied in their 1v1 (or searching for a 1v1).
With the current state of the game, Gen Repair, Chase, Hooked, Rescuer are the four roles in DBD’s gameplay loop for Survivor.
When one Survivor dies, one of those roles is removed from consistency, and in equally skilled play that is usually Gen Repair.
The thing is, the gameplay loop doesn’t change to accommodate that currently, which I believe to be an oversight given the ease of tunneling out a Survivor.
You can either setup guardrails to preserve how long it takes to get to a 3-survivor cycle (by introducing more and more anti-tunnel measures), or you can focus on creating dynamic gameplay around Survivors being Sacrificed.
I prefer the latter given that the game is a Slasher, and not all Survivors should “make it out alive”.
But that doesn’t mean that a Player being Sacrificed should remove them from gameplay, and I think Hatch can play a role here with Sacrificed Survivors.
I’m also of the opinion that 0K and 4K 12 Hook games should be edge-cases. But am aware that a non-4K game as Killer doesn’t feel quite as “rewarding” at the moment.
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It would be cool if this game had a private lobby where you can play against bot killers, so you learn the basics. Unfortunately that is not on the horizon, I think.
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See my issue with the game is that 4ks seem to be the norm. Killers will absolutely sweat for 4ks everytime. Personally i tend to let one or often two survs escape. I get every body to 2 hooks, kill 2 survs (not always necessarily in that order lol) and then allow the last 2 to finish gens or last one to find hatch.
I still get the challenge of outskilling other players and lose a minimal amount of bp. The survs get a bunch more bp and a free escape which makes a change from dying constantly. I'll usually only play merciless against a coordinated team, and even then as long as they dont BM i usually let someone get hatch.
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Idk the toxicity argument always seem like a weak one. Yeah it will always happen online gaming being what it is. But asymmetric multiplayer is usually more chill, when i used to play evolve ppl on chat were generally ok. Because it's 4 players working together, of course you'll get the odd one who just switches on to put ppl pn blast for leaving them on hook, but then maybe the vc means they would work out no one is going for hook and actually get them off. Plus mute buttons are quick and easy to use. Endgame chat is far more toxic than vc would ever be so I don't know why we have that.
And vc does not invalidate aura read perks, making accurate call outs on dbd maps is extremely difficult except for around major landmarks like shack and main building, or the occasional unique feature like the carnival area on chapel
Even playing with my swf I still often run empathy to help me find injured team mates.
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Didn't know about killer bots so good to know. And yeah nobody can be good at the game straight away. But dbd is kind of all or nothing, on CoD you may go negative, but will still win matches because your team was good, and you'd still get a few kills unless you are really genuinely dirt poor at the game. But in dbd losing feels very different, gens don't get finished, and maybe 3-5mins in the game is obviously a loss and you can't really so anything about it, everybody gets hooked and you're powerless to stop it, maybe one player gets hatch. Which isn't a bad thing on it's own, it's a horror game, some situations should feel oppressive and hopeless. But to have that, 10-15 matches in a row? Not a pleasant or enjoyable experience.
For a new player not being able to run chase, arguably the hardest skillset in dbd to learn, means that new survs get downed quickly and often get tunneled out by convenience. They don't get chance to hone skills. A punishing experience turns them away from the game and as a result the new player retention is very minimal. Ive introduced multiple people to the game and they have all without exception stopped playing it a month or two in because they don't find it enjoyable.
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I know it would never happen due to potential abuse, but I wish there was a way to submit a request to be a guide\roleplay killer. In this mode, you don't get any BP for kills, but instead get a baseline 20k a match. When this mode is enabled, you only go against newcomers, you're expected to play to spook as opposed to win, and you can only hook one person. You don't get a prompt to hook anyone else. You're essentially there to give him a spooky killer experience in a roleplay way, but they are expected to all or almost all escape. Their MMR wouldn't be affected if put into a "roleplay" killer match. That way, as a killer, you know you're going up against newer players, and your goal is to put together a spooky fun experience since you'll have a lot more room to do so since they wouldn't be playing remotely optimally. Would be fun for ghostface players as well as a way for newcomers to learn some tricks that advanced killers will use but in a "safe" environment.
Again, I'm sure it would be abused SOMEHOW, but I just love playing Ghostface to jumpscare and spook people, but it's just not viable at higher MMR. For example, sneaking up on someone and staring and waiting for them to notice you just staring as opposed to the usual stalk and expose down. Gens fly so fast, ghostface players can't take the time to have fun shenanigans like that at high MMR. :/
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Oh man this sounds like so much fun. And is basically how I play killer atm lol. Kill 2 let 2 go to provide the illusion of danger.
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The new player experience is equally awful for killers as it is for survivors. I do remember my first few matches as a killer (heck I even screencapped them) and I got genrushed to heck. It's definitely one of the most unforgiving games with some of the least competent matchmaking out there. It's simply self-inflicted torture with a meager promise of future enjoyment which sadly never gets fullfilled.
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My first Killer game was as Wraith (right before his Cube) against 4 Claudettes with flashlights abusing the matchmaker.
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It's a 7 year old game and there's nothing else like it. It's not a shooter. It's not a fighting game. There aren't any skills that transfer from other games. DOTA and LOL are the only games that are somewhat comparable trying to get into as a new player in 2023 and they're both much much worse than DBD.
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I've been playing League until January 2018 just to switch over to Dead By Daylight. I gave up on one toxic game just to end up in one that's probably even worse. The kind of disgusting behavior I've witnessed in DbD puts LoL's community to shame. Riot Games at least will instaban you for certain language, meanwhile that sort of stuff goes under BHVR's radar. They only virtue signal on their social media accounts but ingame anything is allowed.
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"...make a chase last longer than 30 seconds..." 😀
Sorry, I bursted already on this part. I'm nearly 2K hours and 30 seconds chase are a miracles to me, so as for my teammates I'm matched with (which are a lot of P70-100 lately). And that's on low MMR, what happen in middle-high I can only imagine.
As for the topic, it was already hard to enter back in 2020. I think now its twice is hard (with increased amount of perks and mechanics). Devs completely lost it when started to build game around existing veteran community instead of expanding auditory (maybe it was a right call in terms of profit and risks, I can't say).
DbD is definetely only for dedicated players now only.
Main problems to enter:
- trillions of perks (plus maximum inconvenient loadout menu)
- huge variety of mechanics, killer powers and killer addons that could change abilities drastically (aka even more different powers)
Main problems to stay:
- constant losing as survivors (and that what majority players are starting with, to play with friends)
- no feeling of progress
- mentally uncomfortable being in abused "sheep" role (basically survivor can only lose (die) or keep what he had (escape), while killer can either win (kill all) or keep what he had (everyone escaped), no way to "fight back")
- participating in unhealthy gameplay (constant tunneling/camping and gloating killers) - reason why many of my friends stopped playing completely.
In short: DbD is like hardass D&D with bazillion of skills, spells and mechanics you need to understand, but without "difficulty option" and pause.
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New players aren't supposed to win, that's how i see it. You'll get better.
Also i still would prefer to get rid of MMR and ad a ~200hs noob protection instead.
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EVOLVE was like DBD, the new Texas Chainsaw Massacre game is like it, the Evil Dead game is like it too.
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I'm not sure about Chainsaw but the other two you can actually fight back. Shooter skills transferred over.
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You can fight back with DBD too, the flashlights and pallet stuns and head-on stun are fighting back.
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With the mmr system in place its def not 100 games of easy survivors. You get 5 4ks in a row the difficulty is going substantially up. Reality is you're not wrong but that's also cause of the player base. There aren't really any baby killers anymore. Both sides have been patched multiple times. It's Def not easy to play killer like it was low skilled killers have quit in droves
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That's how I play too. And yeah, it (usually) ends with being "nice" and letting someone go. It's why I'm very aware of a lack of dynamic gameplay systems with this game, and how a Kill snowballs so much.
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