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Why can't the last survivor try to escape (from hook) when they haven't been hooked before?
For example i was hooked next to the exit, haven't been hooked before and i had deliverence. It was a free escape but the last 2 mates just left (they were across the map) probably because they were scared of blood warden (egc just started so there would have been plenty of time). But that doesn't matter for my question.
I was just wondering why can't i try to escape and i'd like to hear your opinions
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It was added to prevent survivors from unnecessarily keeping the game from ending by just not letting themselves die on hook and forcing the full 2 minute wait.
Before someone mentions 4 minute bleedouts, it's clear the devs want to address that too with the ptb test about half a year ago.
I don't see a reason to change this on niche situation like yours.
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Yup, it’s time for BHVR to fix this.
I made a post about this too. Sometimes you just never get hooked for whatever reason until you’re the last one left.
You should be able to attempt to unhook yourself like normal in these situations, or use deliverance if you have it.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
Why can a survivor try to escape from hook in the first place? It's mostly used for hook suicides anyway.
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If you had Deliverance you could have gotten the killer's attention before the game was over. Then you'd have been able to use it.
If you're the only one left in the match you don't really need to use it because either:
1) You're near an open gate and it's an easy, guaranteed escape due to basekit BT and Haste
2) You're not and you're just wasting the killer's time by stretching out a losing game.
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Because endgame is supposed to be neutral and purely a means to an end. Everyone is gone, you're the only person there, and presumably the killer has nowhere else to go and nothing else to do except move to the next game. Giving you that chance of escape is unlikely to change the outcome of the match in any significant way, except in a tiny handful of specific situations. It just prolongs it. Having a perk you didn't get value from sucks but it happens to everyone at one point or another.
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The devs want to address the 4-minute bleedout?
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It was inconvenient for killers to wait. So they removed an entire players chance to unhoook and escape, just to reduced to the killer's wait time for their 4K. Tells you everything you need to know about DBD in a nutshell, lol.
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The PTB test for the mori system when there are no more survivors up is addressing it. Now the PTB had it's own share of issues, but the idea that the game ends once all survivors are dead, hooked, or in dying state at least addressed the ability for killers to needlessly extend the game by forcing bleed outs.
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Oh. I didn’t realize you meant the idea they scrapped (basekit Unbreakable). Why would you say that’s something that shows an interest in circumventing 4-minute bleedouts? They could easily achieve that in a number of realistic, non-invasive ways. And I can’t agree that a failed PTB experiment shows any commitment or interest to resolving slugging.
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It's hardly a failed experiment when it was a test on experimental changes they stated they plan to add to the game during the Chapter 6 anniversary stream that they said weren't ready to go live with.
And yes it prevents killers from just slugging the last guy forcing them to bleed out for 4 minutes which is the same thing when the last survivor could just stay on hook for 2 minutes out of spite.
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Noone is asking the killer to wait 2 minutes. But at least give the survivor the 1st hook state (which isn't two minutes) and their 3 chances at an unhook.
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That still leads to the same problem of survivors just waiting out the hook for as long as possible. The devs have been adding ways for the game to just end when outside of very niche scenarios the game is over and it's just needless waiting.
EGC exists to prevent hatch standoffs (there was a situation where people were waiting hours over hatch) and survivors just hiding and not escaping to spite the killer. The instant hook kill exists to end the game so people can't force waiting out 2 extra minutes. And the devs are looking to combat letting the last survivor bleed out with the end game mori.
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because one of two things happen:
- Gates are open/hatch is available: Forces the killer into a situation where they just lose because of random chance, or a perk that they can't counter (Deliverance) without having tunnelled/camped earlier on, both which survivors dislike.
- Gates are closed/hatch is unavailable: Just extends how long it takes for the game to end.
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It was an experiment. There was neither pledge nor promise from any dev that it or any other anti-slugging measure would be added to the game, at any time. You know that.
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Allowing that to happen will result in 1 of 4 things happening.
- Survivor doesn't self unhook and wastes another minute of the killers time in a won game. This helps no one. This getting removed is good.
- Survivor does self unhook but fails. This is hardly different than how it currently works.
- Survivor self unhooks successfully, but gets caught again. This accomplished exactly nothing other than wasting time in a game that's over. Nothing is lost by this outcome getting deleted.
- Survivor self unhooks and by some combination of luck and perks, they manage to get out an open gate or hatch. This outcome is absolute garbage. If you are the only survivor left in the trial and are downed or on hook, why should you not die when you are in a terrible spot and have no teammates to help you. Trick question. You should absolutely die in that situation. Any perk that could potentially rescue you from that fate will 1000% feel like the killer got robbed. Because they did.
There are literally no good outcomes for allowing this. Only bad. It sucks that your teammates literally killed you, but that's how it be in a team game sometimes. In fact, they should make the Yellow Mori base kit.
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You SHOULD have the opportunity to unhook yourself even IF the killer is right there.
I run Off the Record and if I ran Deliverance then I’d be able to unhook, have endurance, and possibly escape.
It’s like the girl escaping leather face at the end of Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
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Sure, that sucks when it happens. But you shouldn't be guaranteed an escape, that's why you needed your teammates to stay in the game to use your perk. They didn't, that's their fault, not the game or yours. That's just kinda how it happens sometimes, especially with DBD and Solo Queue.
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Again, why rob the survivor of his Kobe chances. Why would the game rob one side of anything for the time convenience of the other? Why allow slugging to rob survivors of 4 minutes for half a decade? Your excuse doesn't add up.
BHVR took away last survivor kobe chance out of respect for killer main's time, at the expense of the survivor for years. So long that in your mind it actually seems like an okay trade-off.
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The killer is a single player team facing a team of 4 people. It's fine if the killer gets the kill in this scenario. And as I said, the devs have currently show interest in solving the 4 minute slugging issue as well.
The change to hooks in the last survivor situation has been in the game for years and something survivors just need to play around. A survivor who goes out of their way to avoid the killer for the chance to unhook themselves as the last survivor remaining is simply a bad teammate and shouldn't be rewarded.
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Basekit BT kicks in even on self unhooks
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In the vast majority of endgame situations if you as a survivor are alone and none of the gates are remotely close to being opened and the hatch is closed, you are effectively dead. Even more so if you are on the hook, deliverance or no deliverance. If you're holding onto a deliverance proc till endgame you're not using that perk in a way that makes sense. It's to help you in hook trade situations or surprise kobe somewhere in the middle of the game not at the end when you're alone.
It's not simply out of respect for the killer's time it is also for the survivor's time as well. The game is over for both sides and by a large margin the situation the survivor would just spend their time trying to stealth around only to end up dying anyway. It's a situation where both sides just end up wasting each other's time for a result that they already knew was going to happen. There has never been a point in time since deliverance was added to the game that you could be on the hook with no other survivors left in the trial and still kobe. So I am not sure exactly what you think you've lost when this how the perk and game has pretty much functioned for its entirety.
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Had almost the same situation. I unhooked the survivor, who straight went to the exit gate. I got chased and downed, because i were running into a deadzone unlucky. I got hooked and my mates just left without letting me try to unhook myself. When i asked them, why they didnt let me try to unhook myself they just said "because you are the random :) ". damn that f***ed me up xD
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That's really silly, the survivor took a perk (say Deliverance) and he also managed to activate it. Why should the game rob him of this. Not to mention that the killer skipping two stages for last survivor has been a buff for a long time. Killers play this strategy where if a person has not being hooked they just hook them last to avoid hook states being used as resources.
Imagine Blood Warden only working if you got at least one kill before EGC, but being inactive if all 4 are alive by EGC. That would be a huge nerf to killer end game. Having Deliverance should grant the user the possibility to unhook themselves even if they're the last one remaining. If survivors have to play safe during end game out of fear for Blood Warden, killers should also play cautiously over Deliverance and not forgoing someone's hook stages just because. It would only buff solo survivor. SWF doesn't benefit from it because they a;ready have the co-ordination to use their hook states as resources for each other.
Killers can already tunnel and camp.
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I'm with you on this. Even if BHVR doesn't grant the ability to 4% in end game if you are alone they should grant it to deliverance so it doesn't skip unhook stage.
And not to mention this is a legit strategy for killers where they forgo a survivor entirely and just hook him in the end so they skip 2 stages. It's just that people who replied to you didn't wanna mentioned it (or forgot who knows) and they probably wouldn't like it if this strategy got a bit nerfed. But this strategy would only buff solo survivor and not really SWF as they already use their hook states as resources for each other.
And for every person telling you about the game not giving you guaranteed wins, ask them what they think about the killer getting a guaranteed kill skipping the hook states of the last survivor or slugging for the 4k.
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if the killer wanted to, they can just bleed you out for 4 minutes on the floor to avoid you getting the chance to even try. Ultimately, it also prevents the survivor from wasting the killer's time by struggling for the entire 2 minutes until they die. Ultimately it saves everyone's time as a result.
Situations where bleeding you out on the floor is not feasible AND kobes would give you an opportunity to escape are an edge case and ultimately irrelevant.
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If you get hooked before you activate deliverance you get "robbed" of it. Ultimately you are bringing a perk that isn't guaranteed to be used in the first place and saving it for a situation where you will die anyways.
And blood warden is already easy for survivors to deny by 99% gates and just leaving before the killer gets the hook.
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Solo survivor has too much variance. Can you guarantee me I am not stuck with a 3-man SWF who wants to bully the killer in end game? No, you cannot. And for every similar situation where you can not depend on your team, Deliverance should have you somewhat covered up. The perk itself already has a downside, if you get hooked first it's a wasted perkslot.
Your team 99% the gate isn't even a guarantee, because many times people just open it anyway without having to and putting pressure on the team.
Someone having Deliverance and being hooked last while everyone left happens probably much less the above.
Deliverance being tweaked will hardly have any effect on the game or buff SWF because SWF already makes use of all their health states. The only effect it'll have is tilting the killer when he thinks he secured a kill. And have a minimally positive effect on solo survivor.
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So you addressed exactly zero of my points about why this wouldn't be a good change. Cool.
However I'm not you so I will still engage with your points even though you didn't with mine.
If Deliverance gets changed to be usable in end game all that will happen is the killer will face camp you. That's it. Full stop. Then waits out your free BT effect and downs you 10s after you get off hook. That is a WASTE OF TIME. For everyone. Or you'll get out and it'll be seriously stupid and rob the killer of a deserved kill. THAT is why you are "robbed" of using Deliverance when you are the last one left. You had an entire game before this point to use the perk and force it if necessary. Why didn't you?
That example you gave for Blood Warden is a false equivalency. Sometimes killers don't get kills before end game. Why should they be further punished for that. Especially since the methods killers have to "force" a kill are generally hated (for good reason mind you, but they are). We don't want to further encourage that behavior more than the game already does. Also your assertion that it would be a massive nerf to killer end game is laughable. Blood Warden is not a strong perk. It very rarely gets run, and all nerfing it would do is make the few people who do meme with it just stop.
I fail to see what tunneling and camping have to do with this discussion. In fact, Deliverance can potentially be used to bust up a tunnel. After it is active, body block the killer, force them to down you, and if they hook you, you can get off the hook no problem. Seriously... if you have an active Deliverance and you're the last one left... one of two things has happened. Either your teammates left you to die and that sucks, or you failed to run interference for several death hook teammates.
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Maybe just adds a auto-kobe? any careful killers wouldn't let survs escape anyway, it doesn't matter.
Well kobeing should be removed anyway tbh though, it does no good to game in today.
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Why should they get a free kill for Deliverance not working right though? In this case the survivor gets robbed. And if the killer hooks the survivor near exit gate isn't that a mistake of the killer?
Killer is not entitled to a free kill which hooking someone with no hook states is. Let alone someone with Deliverance. And this didn't always use to be the case. It got changed so killers are not bullied, but nothing's been done about slugging for 4 mins either out of spite or for the 4k. Why don't you complain about that? Getting robbed even if he played well all game with a perk that should be working because it has conditions to meet to be activated.( deliverance isn't active unless you rescue someone first, if you get hooked first it's a perkslot wasted). A killer who's been making mistakes all game can still end up with one kill over 1 tiny mistake or more. And if someone having Deliverance and using it in end game is no issue then why are you opposed to it? It might only save 1% of the people running it, but flashlight locker saving also got removed when probably a small percent also did. Why should I be ok with a killer who played bad all game, having even more power end game?
And if you're still a strong supporter about Deli being a time waster, then I expect you see you supporting the same for slugging for the 4k. Just take your 3k and if you're lucky you get 4k. No need to waste people's times (or is time not wasted then because it's the killer's own decision?)
Someone using Deliverance in end-game has hardly any effect on you. You just trigger EGC and if they don't make it they don't, if they do well perk was useful. Just cause it might happen 1% of the time or less should not affect you. Flashlight locker saving also got removed despite a very small portion of the playerbase doing it continuously in one match.
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Can't it just be like a 3 second delay though? Thats enough time to wait out and gives survivors a chance to use deliverance
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Deliverance is working right. If you are the last survivor in the trial, all your remaining hook states get skipped. Since your first hook stage gets skipped in that very specific situation, you can't use Deliverance.
It isn't a free kill. Firstly, they downed you and hooked you. That alone makes it not free. In addition, all the other Survivors are either dead or gone. Since 99'ing gates is a thing, that's not free either since the killer at minimum spooked your teammates into leaving. Or you have bad teammates.
I don't talk about slugging for the full 4 minutes because that ptb with basekit unbreakable and the finisher mori happened. That tells me that it's on the Dev's radar and unless I have a solution, there's no point talking about it. And I don't have a solution.
Flashlight locker saves got removed because some Survivors were abusing them. Two Survivors with flashlights and lockers shouldn't be functionally immortal... but they were. Which is why locker saves got removed. It didn't happen often, but when it did it caused so much of an issue that it couldn't stay.
I personally don't slug for the 4k unless I know exactly where the 4th person is. Do I think it's poor form to try and force the 4k like that? Sure, but again, how do you fix it without breaking other things? I don't know.
If it only might result in an escape 1% of the time, why bother enabling it? It probably won't do anything and allowing for it just wastes time on nothing.
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It is free cause you skipped 2 hook states. It's a killer strategy that they use. If they cannot catch that survivor or find them they leave him last intentionally. It's not random. Instead of requiring 12 hooks you're basically going for 10 hooks. Let's not pretend here it's something small. If all survivors but one escaped and you skip his hook states how did you earn it. You only downed him once not three times. Basically the game gifted you one kill because you got lucky in end game. Imagine if a survivor unhooking (also getting lucky) themselves also removed their hook state, lol.
Just because they tried it doesn't been it's anywhere near close to being implemented. I don't wanna remove slugging as a strategy, I just wanna remove the guaranteed 4k when 2 are left. Survivors can still lose if they have 2 gens left and someone DC's for whatever reason (I am not talking about DCing at 2 hook states) even though until that point they were dominating the game. Killers should not have a winmore strategy, it should be a high risk higher reward (4k being that). And the safe play is to go for the 3k. After all more often than not, killer find the Hatch first because they have more movement speed and don't have to stealth. Having a basekit UB at 2 left, besides some fringe situation where it can be used maliciously (but this also happens now with one survivor hiding for 4 mins), it'll only punish those who are unable to find the 4th survivor in 40 or so seconds. 40 seconds is plenty of time. 4 mins to look for someone with nothing pressuring you is just too much.
Killers get handed to them kills all the time when survivors get greedy in end game and are trying to get all 4 of them out. It should also be possible for killer and more common if he missplays his lead to end up with 2k rather than 3k. Killer wasting 1 minute chasing a survivor is already considered a mistake cause he loses pressure. It should not be irrelevant when the same killer spends 1-2 mins looking for survivors when only 2 are left.
Some survivors were abusing them, not the majority. The majority don't even know how to do them. Two survivors with flashlights and lockers aren't immortal because their beams run out of power. Two survivors not working on gens is a good thing for the killer. They're not looking to win anyway.
If a minority was abusing lockers why remove it? It probably happened only as much as Deliverance in EGC would happen.
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What's written in Point 4 is, to quote, "absolute garbage".
However many years ago and prior to the build change discussed in this thread, I was the last survivor, was hooked near to the exit and successfully used the 4% chance unhook (it took two attempts: 4% + 4% = 8% chance of unhook).
Then I ran past the killer who was standing nearby, but not close enough to catch. It was an awesome escape and made further memorable as one of the random other survivors sent me a message after saying he'd spectated the end game and said how awesome it was. Stuff like that is FUN.
So I believe that the game would be better to allow a never-before-hooked survivor (Phase 1) who is the last remaining survivor in thee trial, to:
- try their luck at 4% chance unhook (usually you get three attempts, unless you have Slippery Meat)
- or, if they happened to have an activated Deliverance, execute their 100% guaranteed unhook
When the survivor gets to Phase 2, or was already at Phase 2 prior to that hook, then they automatically die.
So with my proposal above, the "extra" delay to the game ending would only be waiting for the Phase 1 completion.
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