Have the developers ever actually stated how they want killers to play the game?
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It's stated they want to limit the effectiveness of 3-gens to account for killers that go into matches with the intention to 3-gen. I have no idea what they have planned, I'm not a mind reader, but there is a difference in language there.
The flip side of that question is pretty easy to compare, though. If a killer hasn't killed anyone at that point, and they have a 3-gen, should they get to automatically win?
I think the answer to both questions is that it should be possible, but not guaranteed. Sometimes that's going to look like the survivors breaking it, sure, but sometimes it's going to look like the killer actually getting downs and progressing the game.
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@Topic
I can't speak for behavior so i'll just get my tinfoil on for this. The easy answer for them is "Play how you want." It's deeper then that though because there is a noticeable performance gap that is increasing as the game evolves. One could argue it's shoehorning players into how to play if they want to be optimal and continue to have a positive experience. While I wouldn't say they are outright pushing people away from lower-power M1 killers, there is a power creep elephant in the room. Again, tinfoil hat on for this so take it with a grain of salt, but new killers are being made to be so much better than their older counterparts who were designed to be good at 1-2 things. As the game evolves their kits have been getting bigger with multiple powers that would have had separate killers for each back in the early early days of the game. Here's an excerpt I found from the new killer' Singularity Power.
Quantum Instantiation
"A dark Crystalline structure in an ancient ruin gifted - or perhaps cursed - Hux with sentience. He build a new body, and with it, a terrifying way to bend the rules of physics to his benefit.
The Singularity can shoot and spawn Biopods around the map; these Biopods can attach to any verticle surface they land on. The Singularity can control a Biopod remotely and look through it, and tag Survivors, afflicting them with a Temporal Slipstream. When slipstreamed, The Singularity can teleport next to the Slipstreamed Survivor either by using the Biopods to tag them, or by shooting them. When a Slipstreamed Survivor is in proximity to another Survivor, the Slipstream can spread.
SPECIAL STATE OVERCLOCK MODE
After a successful Slipstream teleport, the Singularity enters Overlock Mode. In this state, walls and pallets can be destroyed faster, vaulting speed is faster and he cannot be stunned by pallets. Attempts to stun by pallet merely remove Overclock Mode and momentarily slow the Singularity.
SPECIAL INTERACTION: ELECTROMAGNETIC PULSE
At the beginning of each Trial, several supply cases spawn, each containing an EMP. Survivors can use these EMPs to remove the Slipstream from themselves or others, or to briefly disable a Biopod. Once used, the EMP is destroyed"
I look at this and say...why would I even want to play any other killer when this one seems to do 3 different M1 killer things but better. It makes me want to go to the shiny new powerful model, which is what it's obviously designed to do, but why do all this and make these older killers that have been neglected look antiquated, outdated, and left in the dust?
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The intended way for killers to play is “lose humiliatingly, allow survivors to call you slurs, never ask for any improvements.”
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same, personally I find I enjoy games that last longer more. I think the 15 minute mark is the correct thing to aim for, any more than that and it gets tedious, but in order to do that I also think survivors need another victory critical objective besides slamming gens.
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How is the 3 Gen an automatic win? Do all the survivors drop dead if a 3 Gen is active?
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I find it hard to believe you're not being disingenuous here.
If a killer is determined to protect their 3-gen, and they're not committing to chases because those chases would take them away from the generators, that game is stalled out. A killer with a basic amount of pressure (so most of the roster) is able to keep control of the generators, and if they aren't taking chase away, that war of attrition would take forever even in cases it's winnable.
It may be a win through the survivors giving up, but it's still a win.
If you're going to contest anything I just outlined with a "what about cases where", then you aren't engaging with the problem BHVR have acknowledged. That is and will be relevant when talking about how to fix the problem, but it's not relevant when talking about whether to fix the problem.
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so the killer strategizes for the long game, but thats a bad thing even though 3 gens can be broken with a little teamwork? Its not like regression is a thing that exists anymore. Progress stays on the gen, so just split up on the gens and spread progress. Eventually its bound to pop. 3 genning is barely a problem anymore, people just mald so much that its getting looked at.
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The question you need to answer is : would you rather the killer Camp a 3 gen or camp a hook?
Punishing the "3 gen style of play" and nerfing all gen regression into the ground tells me I shouldn't bother with gens. Instead I should just punish unhooks. Hit the unhooker and down the unhooked player to tunnel them out.
If that's the direction you want to go then proceed.
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Sure thing. By mobile, I mean allowing the entire trial to be considered your territory, not just the immediate vicinity around a generator or a hook. Insidious exists because it's extremely outdated, but your other examples are better exceptions; it's not always a hard and fast rule, it's a mentality. As a killer, you are not an immobile fixture guarding a specific spot, you're a hunter with the majority of the map as your territory.
That's not to say literal mobility is necessary, but you should be roaming. Even Trapper and Hag want to leave their setup so they can push survivors into it. Any time you're stuck by a hook or a generator waiting for survivors to come to you, instead of going to harass the survivors yourself, that's what I mean by mobile vs immobile.
As for what I mean by being decisive, I mean acting with a plan and not waffling in a particular spot racked with indecision. If you got a hook, move, try to capitalise on that pressure by occupying another survivor before the save can happen; don't stick around that hook unless you've got serious reason to think other survivors are already there.
Killers pressure survivors by forcing them to act. Injuries do count, though they're a softer kind of pressure; healing doesn't take that long if survivors group up, but it is still time that they aren't on generators. Lengthening the game in general isn't the problem, but 40 minute games are. I don't have to explain that one, I hope.
You sincerely do not need to camp to generate pressure. Anything that pulls survivors away from their generators is pressure.
I hope that helps clarify!
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This would actually be fine if the bloodpoint gains were increased, and we deemed a single kill as a "win" for the killer.
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I’m genuinely not being disingenuous. You and other posters are giving off the impression that if a killer defends a 3 Gen, whether they planned for it or it’s inadvertent due to survivor misplays, then it’s a bad thing. And your solution to this bad thing is to force killers to do the wrong thing because it’s “more fun”. Not your exact words, but that’s basically what you’re saying. Is the survivors running away from the 3 gens not also stalling the game? They’re not doing their primary objective after all are they?
There is overall a general ideology that crops up sometimes in this community that people should just know when they’re beaten. Whereas for others the game is over when the trial ends and not a second before. If four survivors are still alive but it’s a 3 Gen situation the killer should be able to defend these generators. Where we probably agree somewhat (and should be evidence that I’m not being disingenuous) is that I do believe the killer should be trying to down survivors, within reason (meaning not having to just chase that one survivor who clearly wants the attention and is trying to lead the killer to the other side of the map).
Overall aside from larger solutions, BHVR should just lower the total length of time a game can go on for to about 20-30 minutes. And call it a draw if the gens aren’t done and survivors are alive.
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Alright, we're definitely on firmer ground here, I appreciate the clarification.
So, I do think the survivors involved do bear some responsibility, but it's not equal. A survivor committing to the generator or just running at the killer is guaranteeing a loss, more or less, whereas a killer who takes the chase has more of a chance of winning since they still have the gates to defend after the last generator. However, you're right; ideally the solution would require neither side to bear a serious risk of losing on purpose. I don't know what that looks like, but it is the ideal outcome.
I try not to use phrasing like "more fun" when I can help it, because that's subjective. What I will say is that 40 minute 3-gen games are unhealthy, and have very minimal gameplay in them. I don't think any individual player is inherently a malicious scumbag for that situation happening, but I do think the situation itself is a bad outcome for the game, and that it's bad that it's a possibility.
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Isnt it so surprising how the devs want the majority of their playerbase to actually enjoy the game? Wild, I know.
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EDITED because something obviously went wrong, I was quoting (and I'm certain it was in fact quoted) other user and somehow now it shows a quote from Mandy which obviously wasn't the one who should be quoted.
I'm sorry, I find 3-genning as horrible as the next guy, but how is that an ego problem on the killer? I would say it's the same problem with survivors. Why is it the killer who should just drop the game and conciously allow survivors to win (to get tbagged at) and not the survivors who should drop the game and let the killer hook them?
To be fair, I'm not defending that any of those is a good option, but as a player who enjoys killer more than survivor and have faced the situation in both cases, I don't really think it's just an ego problem for one side alone.
Post edited by Z0mbiv0r on2 -
Not the entire map, that isn't always feasible. The only important distinction is that you should always be moving and actively hunting a new target. My point is that you don't pick a small area and claim that as yours while never leaving it; you don't want to cross the entire map as Trapper or Hag but you do want to venture out to push survivors into your web of traps. Otherwise you're just... sitting there. Waiting. Maybe those two killers need improvements to help there (spoilers, they do) but that obviously doesn't translate to stationary gameplay being a good outcome.
Indecision might have been the wrong word. But to risk picking you up on the same mistake- you say patrol. That implies the killer doesn't know where other survivors are and isn't actively going after them, it implies they're keeping a loop around something important and waiting for survivors to come to them, or for them to naturally come across survivors. That's again what I mean by being mobile, you should be actively hunting for more survivors to keep the pressure up. If you aren't, you just give them time to undo what you've managed to do so far.
We can disagree about injuries, but that wouldn't change anything. Having survivors either occupied by healing or vulnerable to one-hit downs is a benefit to you as a killer, even if the former is short lived. Considering what I've been saying about pressuring as many survivors as you can at any one time, injuries matter. Moreso now that medkits were nerfed.
I've addressed the idea of survivors being partially responsible for the 3-gen games above. I don't blame any specific player for those scenarios, I blame the fact that the game allows it to happen. It's a bad and unhealthy outcome. Neither side is responsible for ensuring the other has a chance at their objective; the game is.
That feeds into your comment about the killer being an NPC- conversations about balance aren't about scolding killer players into acting like NPCs, it's about changing the game itself so that it naturally results in the most fun (or since I tend to avoid that term where I can, the most active gameplay) for everyone. Sometimes, yes, that involves taking away tools players would actively use for an advantage, on either side.
The thing about your comments regarding this chase oriented style of play is that... I'm pretty sure this game stopped being a hide-and-seek simulator really quickly. It's just not what this game is, and hasn't been for significantly longer than it ever was.
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I feel that all that needs to be done with 3-gens is to create a minimum distance that gens can be apart from one another. The system is already in place with hooks and making sure gens are a little more evenly spread out would do just fine.
The other thing is to change The Skull Merchant's power into sonething far less obnoxious and unhealthy.
Do that, and it would be better balanced. Whilst I agree some spawns currently are bad, at the same time survivors need to survey a little more and not rush gens without knowing where they all are in relation to each other.
Deja Vu feels like a a permanent percentage boost and I originally believed Deja Vu currently does highlight the three closest.
The devs aren't focusing on the right area here. I understand this might be a place-holder (I hope!), but this shouldn't need a convoluted solution - just somw figure adjustment to the spawning of gens.
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We had a PTB that included an anti-slugging mechanic, there are plans for an anti-camping mechanic, and BHVR is looking into an anti-3 gem mechanic.
Is there absolutely anything on the survivor side that is problematic, and needs a mechanic?
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The majority isn’t always right. In fact, group think is ignorant a lot of the time.
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That's great in theory, unfortunately map sizes would have to massively be taken into account - some maps would likely have to increase in size etc.
There's not a simple solution, hence us offering a temporary measure whilst we work on longer term solutions.
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no using strategy or capitalizing on survivor mistakes. just wander around like a non threatening bot and show survivors a good time on their way to the exit gate.
whiny forum survivors have control of the dev team. killers working towards their objective in any way is toxic and demands sweeping changes to game mechanics. getting review bombed for trying to balance survivor healing has them shook.
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You do see why some people would say this is massively hand holding survivors though yes?
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Surely they will tell us in late June-early July's Dev update that will lead ot the mid-chapter. If not, then later down the line.
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We're not talking about scenarios here were the survivors just complete 3 gens on one side of the map and cause the problem themselves. We're talking about instances where the killer specifically picks 3 gens from teh start and plays only on those gens to draw the game out for that 1 hour timer. That's definitely not the way the game was ever intended to be played.
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Pretty much this.
- Killers can't camp with the new change.
- Killer's can't tunnel because of basekit BT.
- I bet soon we'll see some sort of anti-slugging perk or change.
- Every Killer needs to have a power that Survivors can counter without needing to think about it. After all, it'd be 'unfair' if Survivors had to think about their perks to counter certain Killers!
- Even with the 10 seconds added to gens; Genrush was untouched, and they just added a new perk to genrush harder.
- Gen regression perks were nerfed, and some Survivors are screaming that gen regression perks should not stack. Because preventing Survivors from winning is 'toxic'.
- NoED is 'toxic' because 'Survivors have basically won already' when 5 gens pop, and should be removed.
Basically, according to Survivors:
- Killers should not win, because being removed from the game 'early' (IE: Before they walk out the exit gates) is 'toxic' and 'a flaw in the game'.
- And they get to decide WHEN they win (IE: When all 5 gens pop). At 5 gens, they have 'basically won' so any end game Killer perks are unfair because 'We already won'.
- Oh yeah, and slugging is 'wasting Survivor's time' but waiting in the exit gates to t-bag when you've already won as Survivor? 'Lol, get thicker skin. It's just hitting crouch'.
- Hitting someone on the hook? It's BM and should be punished with BS like The Killer being teleported away and being stunned for 15 seconds. T-bagging after a pallet save? 'Get thicker skin, Killers!'
- Slugging? Unfair, Survivors should be able to get up on their own. Killers also should not tunnel or 3 gen. Or camp. Or hit people after 5 gens pop. Basically, if it allows a Killer to win; It's unfair and toxic and the game is flawed.
The mentality of Survivors here shows that they are used to getting everything they want. Same with the massive review bombs the 0.%5 of the time Killers get a bone thrown to them; It's Survivors, spoiled on being given everything, losing their minds when someone else gets a gift.
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The majority needs the minority or there aren't any matches.
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So let me get this straight....killers have been having issues for a long time now, where survivors can find an area of a map that doesn't have hooks and abuse that by running to it, and making it so they can't be hooked unless you brought certain perks in. Something that everyone, including survivors, have been asking you too look at for a while now...and you instead look at 3 gen defense after introducing mechanics to stop camping which you used to say was a "viable strategy?" Most killers aren't top tier players like streamers with 8k+ hours in the game, and I understand most survivors aren't either but...the game is already poorly balanced in survivors favor in a number of situations such as SWF, which has been an issue since shortly after the game came out. Are these things that are ever going to be looked into? With the constant removal of strategies that are apparently common enough that they're a big issue, that 60% kill rate that has been claimed to be the number BHVR wants to be sitting around is going to drop, while these things survivors can abuse are going to just continue?
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Then how should killers ideally play maps like Azarov’s and Suffocation Pit? I’m not talking about ideal in regards to “fun”, I’m talking about winning.
This is not a facetious question. I just genuinely find it hard to look at these maps and think that 3 genning is not an inherent part of the game design. But due to killers that have been released recently the complaints about killers defending 3 gens have now become more vocal. Because a skull merchant defending a 3 Gen is not the same as much of the roster.
I still also find it interesting that 3 Gen scenarios are framed as killers “drawing the game out”. Not defending their objectives? Weird way to blame one side of the player base for an issue which the devs and survivors shoulder a lot of responsibility.
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If survivors can't have "infinite" loops, then killers shouldn't have infinite gen hold as well. Both create uncounterable iterative exhausting for opposite side gameplay loop. Both are the same and should be treated equally
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I was more referring to the Killers who find a 3-gen and hold it from the beginning of the match, refusing to leave it.
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You can if the Killer sets it up from the beginning of the game.
It shows a clear and calculated effort to hold Survivors in a match. The Survivors are unable to do anything about this.
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It is a tactic to win the game. The killer’s intention isn’t to make sure the survivors have a bad time. They are playing to win.
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I mean soon some killers won't even be able to chase injured survivors. bhvr doesn't care about killers, we just get nerf after nerf. Every strategy we have we're told no you can't do that. They nerfed gen regression and are buffing gen speed perks.
At this point all we have left is to stare at rocks. TCM is around the corner brighter days await.
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Let me guess: the long term solution is a bar on each Gen that fills up if the Killer is within 16 metres of it and the gen is completed when the bar is full.
Close?
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better idea.
a bar on each completed Gen, that fills up if the Killer isn't within 16 metres of it. If it fills up completely, the gen can be repaired again (but the total count of repaired gens doesn't go down). If the killer goes within 16 metres of it, the bar resets to 0
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As has been previously stated by the DEVELOPERS of the game, holding Survivors in a lobby for an hour is not how DBD is supposed to be played.
You and I have zero authority on this. The Devs have said they intend to make it less viable.
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So you glanced over all the killer buffs, noticed Deja Vu in helping assist a 3 gen where everyone is locked into a server for eternity, and that is what you're upset about. I don't get it.
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"They're just playing to win" doesn't even work here, stalling the game until the servers literally kick you out for not doing anything with your time is a damn TIE
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Not true, a DC gives the win to the killer
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This is an asinine argument. The devs have also said, over and over again, that camping and tunneling are legitimate tactics, and when the game first came out repeatedly said that being able to queue with friends was never intended to be in the game, would be insanely imbalanced and they were not going to add it...guess what things the devs have gone back on...go on, take you're time.
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You aren't still seriously complaining about being able to play with friends.
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Where in my post did I complain? I literally said that those are things devs never said would come to the game or change and they did.
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The devs said this years ago when killer was in a way weaker spot and the meta wasn’t to camp / tunnel the first survivor out within 3 minutes. Times have changed.
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Ok....that's exactly my point though? The devs say things, and those things change. This person is claiming that because the devs said it, IT IS HAPPENING. Good lord, reading isn't that difficult.
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They've said that they want to make holding 3-gens until the server closes more difficult.
Didn't think that would be a controversial take but I suppose the new generation of Killer players just aren't built the same as the older ones.
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In one of the pre-release streams that you can still watch on YouTube the devs said they planned to add SWF after release. They were running out of time so had to choose between KYF and SWF for one to be ready at release and they other for after release, they went with KYF for at release because they figured being able to kill your friends would be a selling point. In another stream before release that you can still watch on YouTube they have Cote playing killer and say that playing survivor with friends and coordinating will increase your chances at escaping the killer so you'll want to play with friends.
The game has evolved over 7 years and these playstyles due to changes have become more efficient than they once were. They say as survivor you can play as team or play selfish, both are legitimate ways to play but the game rewards you for teamwork while selfish is more risky. They've made nerfs to selfish survivor play to make it not as efficient, most recently nerfing self healing. As killer you can still tunnel and camp but it's going to be more risk than reward, just like playing selfish survivor.
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And the minority needs the majority more or else the game would die? Balancing around the top percentage of your players is a sure fire way to kill a game that’s not competitively viable and DbD for sure falls under that category.
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Bro wasn’t playing in 2019 that’a for sure lol. Killers were absolute champs back in the day
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Killers:
- Can't Slug (According to Survivors, who demand basekit Unbreakable; Slugging is BM, and anything toxic should be removed! Also, it wastes Survivor's time, and that's just wrong!)
- Can't tunnel. (It's unfair to knock someone out of the game before THEY decide to leave!)
- Can't camp/confirm kills.
- Are expected. Nay, almost FORCED, to 12 hook.
- Had gen regression perks nerfed.
- Can't 3-Gen, or it's their fault. Even if Survivors 3-gen themselves; It's the Killer's fault.
- Should get teleported and stunned if the killer 'BMs' by hitting a Survivor on the hook. Yes, this is easy to abuse, but that's the point.
Survivors:
- Get new genrush perks.
- Can play in a 4-Man SWF that gives them +50 free perks.
- If they 3-Gen; It's the Killer's fault.
- Claim the game is 'Basically over' at 5 gens, and expect NoED and other endgame perks to be nerfed accordingly.
- Seriously; They keep getting genrush perks, yet point to the +10 seconds on each gen as if it was some amazing change.
- T-bag. (It's not BM! Get thicker skin, Killers! The game should not be changed because you're angry!)
- Can wait in the exit gates to t-bag. But it's fine to waste Killer time instead of leaving. Also; it's not BM because Killers need to cope. BM only exists if it makes Survivors angry.
No wonder this game is hemorrhaging Killers; We're literally not allowed to win anymore, because literally anything we do is 'toxic'. 🙃
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No, they’re not. *They are “entitled” to follow whatever the devs/game decides is fair to play.* I just had a Ghostface ragequit because he failed to properly camp on me on the hook at endgame, and we all got out. He got mad because he was not good at chase, got a down and decided to take the stress of failure out on me by hitting me on the hook. They got the save and got me out, but before it could go through… he d/c’d. This is why camping is being nerfed. As killer, you don’t get to throw a tantrum when you get outplayed by indulging in cheesy unfun tactics. You *will* take your loss.
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Literally just play the game how you want. No one truly cares if you camp, tunnel, slug, don't 12 hook, 3 gen (with the intent of holding the game hostage), or you hit the survivor on the hook (which who actually is saying killers should get stunned or teleport for hitting on the hook lmao). Most people just shrug it off or get frustrated for the match, vent, and forget about it cause it's not that deep.
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