Have the developers ever actually stated how they want killers to play the game?

Forcing a shorter match will only make more people 3 gen. Some people won't do that strat right now because it could lead to excessively long matches, and even the killer doesn't want to bother.

If you told people 'hey, you know that easy 4k strat? It's at most 20 minutes now.' you will absolutely get more people doing it.

This also runs the risk of reducing the match timer so much that 'excessively avoiding your objective' has no meaning, so literally anything that involves deliberately wasting time might not be even bannable anymore. That's a whole problem you don't want to invite without serious consideration.

Forgive my ignorance, but I am having trouble seeing how increasing map sizes is needed. The maps may have their own unique distance, depending on size. It would at least stop the spawns that happen so close together and in some cases the players have to be more map aware too.

"Survivors can throw the game and leave if they don't like it"

"Killers can throw the game and leave they don't like it"

It’s not that deep. Calm down. You’re taking this way too personal.

Replace them (killer mains) with bots. 🥱 It would be more engaging than dealing with campers/tunnelers anyway.

They don't want to limit creative plays... to a point

Camping, Tunneling, Slugging aren't creative

Chases are creative... so they will push that (while breaking and repairing everything)

I’m not talking about survivors vs killers. I’m talking about balancing the game around the average player and not someone with 5k+ hours.

Exactly.Exactly.

someone gets it wish the dev did.

You’re missing the part where as the power role one‘s fun comes from subjugating others. Denying other players the ability to play is what really makes killer mains come alive. That’s why they do it. Over and over again. And that’s why they’re railing so hard against BHVR stepping in to stop that.

You can't have the game be stupidly broken when we look at what the very best players can do. You must take the best players in mind and the worst players in mind to make sure neither side if having things too easy or too hard.

This game currently really doesn't care if the "good" players abuse mechanics but that's just as bad as noobs getting stomped.

The chase is the gameplay, man, what else is it supposed to be? It can't be a hide-and-seek type game, there's a reason it stopped being that so quickly. Players can and will find ways to keep themselves alive longer, and since the chase element is the more active element and the element a majority of the game's built around, that part makes the most sense to focus on.

Also, sure, the car loops on Haddonfield do suck if your killer's power doesn't interact with it, but... by "that stupid tractor" do you mean the harvester on Coldwind maps? Because that's a good example of a tile that's actually played around by both sides. The killer can swing to get across the other side of the vault, or double back to catch the survivor on the fall, that's not an example of a bad tile.

Let's say we turn back the clock to pre-release DBD and decide it'll be a hide and seek game, instead of what it ended up being so quickly after launch. Do you really think a game where four out of five players are spending a majority of the time only staring at a generator or crouching in some grass is gonna be that fun for more than like, three days? Or that it wouldn't get dull trying to ferret out survivors from super dark maps with tons of super thick grass? I know I try to avoid talking about the term fun, but there's really no other term for it here, there's very little active gameplay. On both sides, the action comes from chasing down survivors, searching for them would get super boring super quickly, you can see that from how games with super stealthed survivors stretch on forever and aren't that engaging on live right now. In this hypothetical version of the game, the maps would be built completely different so looping can't happen (due to the chase element needing to be de-emphasised even compared to the original launch version of the game), so there'd be much less for either side to do.

You keep harkening back to some "original" game, or "before" the way we are now, but when are you talking about? These changes all started within a year of DBD existing as far as I'm aware, at this stage it sounds like you just don't like Dead By Daylight.

That's kinda my point tho. The chase, no matter how long, doesn't matter in this case. The winning is the only part that you or they are saying is fun.

So go play gen kick simulator 2023 as a PvE game and enjoy 100% win rate.

Edit: autocorrect

You want a recent one?

Locker saves removed because Killers didn't like it.

Not all 3 gens are intentional by survs.

Good Hag players no to setup their web of traps neara 3 gen and defend it from the start.

However hag cannot defend indefinitely as well as skill or knight. But still the point is valid.

Trapper mains too.

So if we’re taking away 3 gen then buff slow killers.

Cant just buff survs and not address killers.

How often 60 minute games were the issue before BHVR released Skull Merchant?

Holy Victim Mentality Batman!

Lets take these one at a time.

Camp - 16m, so this only affect facecamping, which many maps are designed in such a way that you can still pseudo-facecamp at 17m, as that is the closest point to reach the hook. Plus the rate of the unhook bar wasn't even mentioned yet, it could be 10-30s within 1m, we don't know. The only valid complaint here is if it works across floors, which is more a flaw of the maps than this concept.

Tunnel - Killers can't tunnel because they lack the ability to count to the first double digit, and had DS hard deleted (may as well be at least) from the game. As Dr. Evil would put it "Riiiiiight."

Slugging - The timer last mentioned was 45s. Mathematically, even with an Oni downing the entire team, he still has time to hook each of them. So this only counters intentional bleedout or otherwise excessive slugging. Non-issue.

Perk to counter powers - There should be a basekit method of addressing each Killer's power. Would you want to load into a match and auto lose because the Killer picked Billy-the-Kid, and you didn't equip the "bullet proof vest" perk? Might as well quit on the spot if you auto-lose. Luckily that isn't the case, so quitting isn't needed.

10s gens still genrush/Gen Regression nerfed - Usage of the term 'genrush' is a flag for the unironic response 'git gud skill dif'. I had 1 match with 3 BNPs, and that didn't account for the worthless Claudette attempting Flashbang saves (giving free hits in the process, adding healing slowdown), nor the basement diving throwing Surv (visible from aura perks). Heck, I ran 0 gen delay Sadako with STBFL, Nurse's, Sloppy, and Deathbound and won 3/3 matches earlier today. To be fair, I brought Flans, so they might have not sweated as hard, but each match was ultimately won through them getting greedy, and me capitalizing on their unhealed keisters getting snowballed down. Forcing Survivors to react to pressure is the key to victory. If you can't provide pressure, figure out how to. To be fair, if someone predrops every pallet on The Game/Garden of Pain/Borgo, you aren't going to win, although those matches are few and far between (both the maps and the comp dropping combined). Even then, Pop is getting buffed, and Eruption's Regression never got nerfed. Also PR got buffed prior to the 7th hook, and most times someone dies by the 7th hook, so you get the help when you need it most.

NOED/endgame nerfs - Don't know where this is coming from. Personally I wouldn't mind basekitting NOED as long as no one is dead by endgame. Taking the perk would just keep the hex in the event of a pre-endgame death, and maybe shrink the reveal radius/prevent it from showing up if no one is dead. Even then most endgame perks are met more with annoyance (NWO) than 'nerf nao' cries.

Killed 'early' - Your definition of 'early' seems to be instead 'at all'. I would say an early kill is fewer than 6 hook actions, maybe states. 3 hooks on 1 person would be an early kill imo, and 5 hooks total with a kill would equally be an early kill imo. I aim to hook each player at least once before caring about killing anyone, unless I'm map offered against or feeling the pressure.

Decide 'when to win' - Killer still has agency, open the gates yourself. Heck, the only time I couldn't was because I ran against a cheater that fake hooked himself in front of the gate switch. If they waste time they lose instead. Easy problem currently solvable.

Slugging vs Exit Gate clicky clicky teabag - Again, agency issue. Slugged Survivors can't do anything when being purposely bledout, but the Killer can force Survs to leave or risk getting hooked. I personally clean up pallets/breakable walls for extra BP in those cases.

Hit on hook vs flashlight/teabag after pallet stun - I don't care and find it funny on both ends. My opposition was so inclined to waste their time, and leave themself at a disadvantage (slowdown from hit recovery, or less time running away from the pallet). I think people only care about the facecamp hit on hook, which is more annoyed at the facecamping than the hitting on hook. It sucks knowing 'just do gens' is the proper counter to facecamping, then seeing your team run at you for the rescue just to be tunneled back on hook 15s later.

Killer win = unfun toxic - Then you complain in the same post Survivors doing gens lets them win which is unfun and toxic. Hilarious lack of awareness. Even then its clearly false hyperbole.

Things specific here not covered above.

Can't tunnel at all - I've only seen people be truly annoyed or frustrated by being Deep Wounded the milisecond off hook and/or intentionally tunneled from the onset of the unhook. Everyone bodyblocking or who did a conspicuous action responds more with a "its a fair cop" ala the Monty Python witch.

12 hook - I don't think it should be forced, but encouraged. I would add a basekit lesser Grim Embrace that only activates while everyone is alive, and can even activate twice. If you get both GE procs, then unlock basekit Moris with bonus Sacrifice BP. I got a 4k rings much different than I got 4 basekit Moris. It adds extra challenge for extra BP. I would similarly add a White Glyph basekit equivalent after all chests/gens/totems are done, for the Survivor equivalent extra challenge for extra BP.

Gen Regression nerfed - Only the unearned regression is nerfed, earned regression is still strong, and in some cases better.

3-gen - As mentioned in the thread, only intentional from the onset 3-genning is sought to be targeted. I think a decent idea would be after the 4th gen pops, the first gen 'uncompletes' itself. This gen can be redone at half speed (180s), and has an indicator for how many Survs are currently working on it. After 10 minutes (from 1 gen remaining), the remaining gens also 'uncomplete' themselves with the same rules, in case the gen was an unintentional 4-gen, causing the same problem as before.

TP+Stun if hook hit - False narrative to make the opposing side look ridiculous, when no one actually is suggesting this, making this assertion the ridiculous one.

New genrush perks - I only saw 1 perk actually increase speeds, being Gabriels Toolbox reload if 4 greats are hit while holding an empty box. Friendly Competition loses time compared to the time you have to waste cooping compared to soloing gens. I am hesitant about the new perk, but since I rarely see BNPs/juicy Toolboxes PLUS BTL/Hyperfocus/Stakeout, I think it will only be an issue when a new gen completion tome comes out. Too few people have fun exiting the gates faster, they prefer to get a good chase, or get some BP, or get some pips by doing a variety of gameplay actions instead.

4-man SWF for 50+ perks - How many SWFs honestly play like a Hens styled sweat squad instead of AFK During Campfire styled friends goofing off? Every SWF I play against trolls each other more than tries to win at all costs.

10s gen - and yet hook timers were unadjusted, empowering all forms of camping, not just face.

Teabag = BM - I would only consider the lack of agency insults BM. In any of those situations does the Killer player lose agency? Nope, unless it was a cheater with the 5 minute stun. Did the killer do the wswsws mid match before hooking, then that equally would not be BM as the surv team can still do gens, and the 'BM' only hurt the chances of victory of the person doing it. Only if they are doing it while bleeding the last Surv out intentionally would I consider it BM.

The implications of each is that killers fun had no impact on any of the decisions made or has made the game fun for that side.

And we responded to this despite not typing it because we dislike (as in reaaaaly dislike) how lately everything we read feel like nonsense.

Yes, having locker saves removed definitely made it better and more fun.

As for the pH, you didn't specify in general (that we saw anyway so we may have missed it) but it's a change that's geared towards the fun of a killer.

Generally, as Killer, if you can get someone out before there are 2 gens left, you just win off of that.