Killers base powers- How to make them viable
So obviously, most killers have weaker bases and they suck without addons. I want to discuss potential buffs to make killers good without their addons. Feel free to criticise me and suggest your own ideas.
Spirit
Now this might be one of the most addon reliant killers in the game. She has a rubbish duration, her speed was is quite bad when phasing but surprisingly, her recovery is OK since it doesn't matter much at 15 seconds. Now I have actually managed to have a 'perfect game' (32k BP and 4 reds) with her addonless at rank 1 but that doesn't mean she's ok without addons. To make her playable, make the effects of Yakuyoke Amulet in her base kit BUT the faster recovery is not added. I think a 15 second recovery is good for her. And she'd be able to cover more distance with these buffs.
Freddy
Now he's actually a surprisingly good killer with the right addons, he can delay the game, mind game in the transition and he can mindgame in chase really well actually. But he needs certain addons (pill bottle, class photo and ect...) so basically I suggest to make the latter a part of his base and he could actually have potential. Also just a sidenote, I'm no Freddy main but I have realised that he can be a good killer if he keeps everyone asleep without hitting them and is stronger than Legion and Leatherface.
Leatherface
Well er, I don't know how to make him viable at base. Can someone suggest me something?
Myers
20% faster stalking, give him the ability to stalk multiple people and give him no cap. This literally makes him a flawless killer without addons.
Hag
Right so I've been looking at how Hag used to be and I decided giving her a 50m base would make her viable without addons, Hag is literally one of the closest killers to being viable.
Wraith
Increase his movespeed while cloaked to 176% (equal to a phasing Spirit) and his speed burst duration to 1.5s to make him amazing but not too strong. Although, I'd argue he's OK right now.
Trapper
He's not a bad killer, can have an awesome snowball if you get some lucky traps but he's not too strong. I'd make his traps respawn every 60 seconds at base, give him 2 traps at base and allow him to reload traps at lockers, and let him reset traps without picking them up. He will have a maximum of 12 traps on the map at a time. This allows him to control 1/2 of the maps loops perfectly and on maps like Yamaoka Estate, he can control all of the loops with spare traps. (seriously 8 pallets is terrible.)
Doctor
Now he's pretty much the same as the Clown and they're both rubbish. So for Doctor, when a survivor is shocked, they cannot interact for 3 seconds. Right now it's 2.5 and it sucks a bit. He also gets a larger shock radius by 50% and he gets his shocking time decreased to 1.25 seconds. His terror radius in treatment mode gets increased to 45m. This makes him a monster in chase.
Clown
Now to seperate him from Doctor, he gets a larger bottle radius by 20%, he does not get slowed when he throws a bottle (idk why that was added) and he gets a 3.25 second slow when a survivor is hit by a bottle. This makes him good.
The ones who were left out:
Nurse
She's viable without addons. And great.
Billy
Hes viable without addons.
Legion
I dont know what to give him. And he's fundamentally broken for the game. So it's not fair to say how to make him have a viable base without reworking him.
Pig
Nowadays, she feels fine without addons, just great.
Huntress
She's not addon reliant either.
Comments
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Spirit is fine..
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Leatherface: less movement penalty and/or less charge time.
Pig: remove addons tat dont affect rbt ( make them basekit). Have addons affect BOTH RBT and ambush
Doctor: slightly better shock range, less delay on the actual shock.
Myers needs multistalk back and somehow regenerating evil to stalk .Also the stalk rates of his addons werent adjusted when they removed the multistalk etc.
Not really playing the other killers but clown doesnt get slowedmdown while winding up his throw, as far i know.
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Her base is trash. She might be second best/best killer with addons but without them, she's bad. I mean shocking.
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Which killers are good without add ons?
I am asking because saving bp is my priority atm.
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For Legion I would actually give them duration addons as base kit because sometimes I can't even reach the healthy survivor while using Frenzy. Also for Freddy give him power range as default, those help out so much you wouldn't believe how much they've saved me
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Spirit can use ANY of her add-ons and be viable. I only really play Spirit and I don’t like to use all my good purple/green add-ons all the time, so I’ll use the Zori and Shiawase Amulet. Those two common add-ons are good enough to make her duration and speed more viable. You do not NEED the Yakuyoke Amulet and Wakizashi Saya for her to be viable at red ranks. Her duration and speed is kinda bad without add-ons but any of her add-ons are good to put on her.
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Nurse is honestly better played without add-ons since he power is great and learning the timing of the blink is essential without add-ons changing things.
Billy can also do just fine without add-ons since his ability is pretty simple to figure out. The charge time add-ons may be nice but are not a requirement.
Huntress can do fine without add-ons but feels a little odd since you don't gain any status effects on your hatchets. Still perfectly fine without using them provided your aim is good.
Myers can make due without add-ons but you will feel how horribly long it takes to reach EW3 without a stalking increase, and against really dodgy survivors you may only ever get a single EW3 to pop in a match. He can work baseline but its on the line.
Pig (since her change) doesn't seem as add-on reliant although the whole point of the RBT is sort of mitigated since not having any downside to them (for survivors) sorta makes the ability feel...meh.
Even though I think Doctor has one of the most diverse build sets in the game and his add-ons can be really fun he can still work with just the Moldy Electrode add-on. Sure you won't be great in high rank games but Doctor isn't really built for that anyway.
In my opinion the only killers I feel who cannot do very well without add-ons (or who feel hollow without) are: Trapper, Wraith, Spirit, Hag, Leatherbilly, Freddy and Clown (I've not bough or played Legion so I cannot speak for him/her).
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Spirit CAN do really good without addons. Her speed is good enough without addons already but even if it wasn't that speed isn't her primary tool but rather her mind games are.
In a chase 9/10 times if you can down them with addons you can down them without addons. The biggest things you need to be more effective is the speed at which you can start phasing and the recharge time.
The times when the speed helps is outside of a chase for things like map pressure. To be fair the addons ARE pretty important for that, but she doesn't RELY on them like you are saying.
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Legion just needs Movement speed and Duration when moving towards a healthy survivor after Deep Wounding the original one he was chasing. He needs more incentives not to tunnel. Spirit can have both passive-phasing add-ons, not like they'll do much anyways.
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Leatherface needs his revvin' speed upped to 100% (just like Billy) and his chainsaw frenzy needs to make a noise or have a visual indication for when it's fully charged and ready to be unleashed.. or just turn it into how it is for Billy.
Doctor definitely needs his base shock size increased to that of the Moldy Electrode at least (25%).
Clown might need to have the slow duration increased by a second or so (up for 2 to 3 seconds) and perhaps a passive exhaustion debuff of 5-10 seconds (just enough to initiate the status debuff but making it easy to remove by forcing survivors to slow down to catch their breath.. so to say.
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Lets literally just take Leatherface and make him a billy reskin
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Just my opinion, but I don't think Killers should be able to get by easily without using add-ons (except for really low in the ranks where the newbies are). They shouldn't be obligated to use only the high-rarity add-ons or very specific ones if they don't want to suck, but I think they should feel like they're at least somewhat at a disadvantage if they go without add-ons. Kinda like a hard mode.
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I think for Leatherdaddy he could use a complete overhaul. Most of his addons are just recycled Billy Addons which in Leatherdaddys case are complete trash. As for baseline buffs his slowdown when revving needs to not be so punishing in addition to that the charging of the saw needs to be a bit more fluid so that you dont accidentally cancel out the charge. A good buff would be to make the beasts marks and knife scratchings baseline for him. Integrate them like windstorm was integreated for the wraith. Would give him alot of potential to shutdown pallet loops.
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Spirit doesn't need anything at all. She is one of the least addon dependent killers out there right after billy, nurse and hag.
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Spirit is absolutely perfect. Spirit is like the least add on dependent killer.
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Nurse, Billy, Huntress and Pig.
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@Delfador and @thekiller490490 let me point out that I can play Spirit without addons.
I have got a 32k BP game with a 4 reds as her. Not to brag though. But she feels so bad without addons. I'm sure It's just because I'm used to her yellow addons but others think it too.
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BP is scarce man, I struggle getting it. I think all killers should have a fair chance like Nurse, Billy, Huntress and Pig do.
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@MegMain98 are you sure she can be played with brown addons? Because I find myself reliant on her yellow addons to perform mindgames. But I'll try it for you.
@NuclearBurrito I'll try her again without addons. I got a 4 red and 32k BP game as her without addons once. I was sure it's a fluke. I'll try her without addons again and show you the results. I doubt it'll be pretty. But I might be bad as her :P
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Good luck! She isn't easy but I've never needed more than the brown addons for recharge and phasing startup. And I didn't really NEED those ones either.
She already moves fast enough to close chases in seconds if you know where they will be, it's just a matter of predicting their movements
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I’ve played mainly Spirit since she was released. I have quite a bit of experience playing her, so I don’t need anything but brown add-ons. Obviously the green and purple ones are the best but it’s just too easy for me sometimes. If you can predict survivors movements and know how to play Spirit effectively she is viable without add-ons and if you want to use add-ons then all you need is the brown ones.
If you’re not comfortable with her yet then the purple add-ons are your best bet. Stay away from the ultra rare add-ons. The Mother-Daughter Ring makes you go at a super sonic speed but you can’t see any scratch marks. Father’s Glasses are really good but you can become too dependent on seeing the blood if you use that add-on too much.
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Pig's traps should activate after the survivor is unhooked, rather than when a gen is popped. All traps still activate on the final gen.
Trapper should start with 3 traps by default, with sack addons allowing you to carry up to all of them. Also, allow re-setting traps that are already in place.
Huntress - remove Iridescent Head addon, add Iridescent Belt (5 extra hatchets).
Doctor - new addon to reduce the time taken to switch between Treatment and Punishment modes. Remove the charge speed debuff on the electrode addons.
Spirit - change the Anal Beads addon so that the phasing emission is much quieter, but still possible to hear if you are paying attention. This addon is broken in its current state. Otherwise, Spirit is perfect.
Myers - new addon to reduce the sound of his breathing, or maybe just add that to Dead Rabbit addon.
Clown - remove insta-downs.
Legion - remove Legion.
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I'm just going to throw this out there. Not having read that long post. If common add-ons weren't to be removed would anyone be against a point based system for add-ons for killers? Total of 10 points to use so you can tie 2 ultra rares together like usual.
Cost would be according to their rarity so you can use more or a different combination to compensate?
Ultra rare 5
purple 4
green 3
yellow 2
brown 1
Just something I was thinking of the other day. If it's possible that would work better than removing and adding to the base kit I don't know, but it seems like to me the devs are dead set with how things are for now aside from some reworks. If not I hope in the reworks the killers do come out improved.
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Clown does not need any buffs, neither does the spirit, the hag, or Michael. They do just fine in games.
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Billy nurse. They re broken with addons. Only passive addons that dont affect their power should be a thing
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Clown is actually pretty weak... what rank are you?
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@TreemanXD hes probably rank 10
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After he throws it, he gets slowed while the bottle is there.
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Huntress hatchets still iffy going over waist high stuff, and near corners, and what not?
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As a Wraith main I have to say that I kind of agree with you but I feel like 176% is a bit too much, 136/146% would be already better than 126% but 176% is too much. One thing I would like is to make his stealth more viable, I think he should be completely invisible when far away from survivors, so that he has a better chance to get close to them. He can be very strong right now and making the reappearance animation shorter is unnecessary.
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Like you have to be within 16m? Also, trust me 176% is a good number
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8 FROM 12 need imo opinion the Best addons to be viable.
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spirit and hag are fine without addons
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Yeah, something like that. Spirit has 176% because her invisibility has a timer, Wraith can be invisible for as long as he wants, that's why I don't agree with the 176% on him
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@MegMain98 and @NuclearBurrito I did it without addons and a decent build. Got this
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1673271523
against a toxic SWF. :P.
That guy DC so his buddy could get hatch btw. He was last 2.
I feel like you guys were right.
Btw they used the instaheal and 2 of the 3 DS. I didnt bother chasing the obsession.
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To make killers' basekits viable, remove drawbacks for using powers effectively and proactively, and instead keep them for using powers ineffectively. For example:
- The Cannibal is slowed while charging his chainsaw, even though the chainsaw is only effective at close range and this slowed movement allows survivors to get away. Why is that, when he already gets stunned for several seconds after hitting an object?
- The Wraith is slowed when cloaking and slowed when uncloaking. The movement speed buff he gets after uncloaking is basically just compensating for the slowed movement speed while uncloaking. Why is that, when he's still very noticeable while cloaked and makes a lot of noise cloaking and uncloaking?
- The Pig is slowed when crouching, slowed while crouched, and slowed while charging the ambush. She also makes a ton of noise when she uses the ambush (well, before she uses the ambush, which is part of the problem). Why is that, when she's already slowed after a missed ambush and is blatantly noticeable while crouching? Not to mention the fact that RBTs are a non-threat by design.
These killers' powers already have drawbacks when used ineffectively, but they're hindered further by odd design choices that make their powers punishing to use in the first place, for no good reason. Remove these drawbacks instead of making add-ons to deal with them, and you make their basekits viable.
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@Poweas Glad to see that's working out for you.
If I were you I would try to replace striddor with a different perk such as Spies from the shadows.
You can use other perks but SFTS is particularly good on the spirit because it often procs mid chase and can tell you where you need to be mid phasing while aura perks don't work while using her power.
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@NuclearBurrito my problem with it is, it's not as good. Got another perk for that slot? Since Stridor was messing up my accuracy.
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Whispers is always good too. You could also use Rancor to be able to ignore DS
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@NuclearBurrito would Sloppy be good? I've been trying that recently and it seems solid.
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Sure. It doesn't have any particular synergy with Spirit but it's just a good perk in general.
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Thanks. I really value your advice.
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@Poweas I’m glad to see that Spirit is working out for you. Whispers is certainly a good perk to use, I just don’t like The Entity constantly mumbling in my ear. Monitor and Abuse is also great since Spirit already has a low terror radius. Just try out different builds and see what works best for you.
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Wait I got a question about M&A, does it keep ur terror radius increase when you start phasing when in chase? If it does then I'm going to run it.
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I guess to make Leatherface viable without addons is to increase his walk speed when charging his chainsaw or less charge time for the chainsaw because he really struggles with downing survivors with it.
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When Spirit is phase walking inside a survivors terror radius there is no vaccum sound. You have to be completely outside of the survivors terror radius in order for them to hear the sound of phase walking. So if you’re in a chase while phase walking they won’t hear you phase walking.
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Holy #########.
I love my speedster Wraith build, but you can make a SERIOUSLY deadly combination with the Add-ons and 176%. (And not in the good way.)
Either the movement speed or the "Windstorm" Add-ons, absolutely not both.
Why? Well, he doesn't really suffer from anything other than his Power not helping in chases at all. (His is seriously one of the weakest chase Powers without equipment. And this is about the base Powers, so it's a problem.)
To me, all he needs is something like being able to swing (but not lunge, to reinforce the idea that Wraith needs to sneak up close) his main weapon while cloaked at the cost of being Lightburned out of the Spirit Realm, whether it's a hit or a miss.
This allows him to utilize his cloak for way more than just blocking passages, which generally isn't easy on base Power during a chase.
It also makes the "Blink" Add-ons ACTUALLY useful outside of denying cocky Borrowed Time users.
I agree he's okay currently though, and the Add-ons help a LOT.
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During the Dream Transition, Survivors should just flat out stop progression AND not be able to Wake Up each other. People shouldn't be able to finish gens in Freddy's face, break hexes while he has to wait around, or heal themselves from Injured while he waits for them to fall asleep.
Just that single change would go a LONG way to fixing Freddy IMO.
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They're never to touch Myers since he is "fine" 😭
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Spirit does not need add ons at all! I can get a 3 or 4 man at red rank repeatedly with her even with no add ons. You just gotta have good depth perception and know how to play her. Don't help Myers either. It is easy to get kills with Myers and he definitely does not need add ons. Just sit behind a person and pop tier three for an instadown. If you can't play a good game of Myers without add ons it is a problem on the player's end, not the killer's end.
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