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Lesbian flag and "more to come"
I unfortunately couldn't watch the stream yesterday, but I've seen the flags, the lack of a lesbian one in other things, and the repeated "more to come" response to people asking about it.
I know BHVR isn't trying to be harmful on purpose, not so much because I believe a company can be LGBT+ friendly just because they're that nice, but because being homophobic on the first day of pride month is not good for business unless bigots are your target (which is obviously not the case here).
I just felt like maybe we should discuss that it's a bit weird and quite uncomfortable to pick and choose who gets to be celebrated and in what order, and also to decide to leave out Lesbians in particular, who have quite an unfortunate history of being left out of LGBT+ content, merch and celebrations (not only by companies but also by LGBT+ associations and the like).
Most lesbians have been made aware their flag is coming sooner later, and (I've scrolled through all the QRTs so believe me on that) they're still not happy. They're not excited about getting their charm later, they're just wondering why do they have to wait, why do they come last, despite being the first letter of the acronym at that.
I know it's not the only flag left out, but it's the only flag left out that we know is already in the files and had leaked along with the other flags which are already available, so while we can just justify the gay flag being missing bc "it wasn't there in the first place so they have to make it and add it" we know you already have the lesbian flag and decided to just.. not release it, which is why the whole thing feels quite uncomfortable.
Which leads it to my second point: Why do lesbians have to wait for "more to come" ?
My very simple guess is that a female character (my hope bet is on Yui) will be announced to be a Lesbian character. If that's the case, it still doesn't justify having to wait for the charm, if anything there's probably going to be at least a handful of people who will believe you announced a lesbian just to make them forget about the flag delay. If that's not the case, I can hardly imagine whatever is "more to come" will justify the delay and make lesbians less mad.
Also, as much I would love more LGBT+ characters, only announcing one of them every pride month (and then forgetting about them the rest of the year), teasing it and dragging it for who knows how long across pride month along celebrations just feels performative (? not sure that's the right word ngl)
I mean after all BHVR is still a company who benefits from all those things, and companies "virtue signaling" during pride month is not at all surprising, but handing us a gay character every pride month to keep us happy doesn't feel that great (even more so that since David was announced gay he barely got anything even though he was quite popular before).
I'm still happy about getting all those flags and would be absolutely thrilled if a woman is confirmed lesbian, but the current situation is a bit uncomfortable so I figured I'd share my thoughts.
(Gotta go catch up on the stream now, bye 👋 and happy pride month)
Comments
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Not trying to be a hater but like why does it matter? They're fictional characters. I still dont understand the movement of having to make a bunch of gay/trans/bi/lesbians to appease peoples own sexuality.
Again not trying to hate on it, but like at the end of the day a video game is nothing but pixels that have 0 feelings towards you or interact with you.
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I also saw that theory online, and it might be accurate. If anyone is, Yui is the most likely candidate. Maybe they are planning to do some additional fanfare for it, but it's backfiring since people expected it now.
Is the lesbian flag & MLM flag really the only one that have yet to be added? I'm not sure because the only codes I used were the cool eye charm, and the bi flag. It honestly feels weird wearing it after so much time spent using the standard rainbow charm.
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I have a theory as to why.
The MLM flag (gay men) isn't in the game files yet, and it'd look very weird to release the WLW (lesbian) flag without the MLM one, especially as that would make the MLM one the only flag missing. My guess is they're waiting for End Transmission to add the flag (June 13th is so long away) and then releasing the MLM and WLW ones together.
They likely couldn't postpone this stream, because people have schedules, especially because there's Trixie Mattel, and this would've been set in stone for a long time.
Though if it's because Yui Kimura is revealed to be a lesbian (with a second tome as high quality as David King's thank you very much 💅), then I won't be complaining either.
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They have done and continue to do so much for the lgbt community and people still find reason to find fault in them.
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I am trying to be a hater here: why do you feel the need to mention this when you could just actually not care?
it’s about representation, not being outright excluded, inclusion, a step into normalization. Heterosexuality has been displayed in videogames since they exist and no one said there was no place for it. Why call it out when it’s inclusion of something not straight?
Yes people do. You would know about it.
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If you have had representation your whole life it's normal that you can't grasp why it's so important to people who haven't had it. Heterosexual representation is so present everywhere that people don't even notice it because it's normal and accepted.
For example you'll see homophobes complain about David being gay because "sexuality doesn't matter in a horror game", but they've never complained that heterosexuality has been in the game for a lot longer (I mean we literally have Frank & Julie dating) because they simply didn't notice it as it wasn't anything out of the ordinary.
Having LGBT+ characters normalise being LGBT+ and the fact that we don't need a reason to exist (which is why I personally enjoy casual representation more than say a gay character who's entire personality is being gay).
The fact that LGBT+ representation needs a character to be officially confirmed is a necessary evil because otherwise straight people simply deny it because "where's the proof?", just like coming out wouldn't be necessary if society didn't assume everyone is cis & straight.
I invite you to read articles about the necessity of representation, I don't know if I'm allowed to link external sites but just searching "why is LGBT representation important" on google should lead you to them :)
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Yes people do. You would know about it.
Yea, but this seems a bit unfair. Is waiting a few days really asking too much?
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Something that sparked my interest:
who have quite an unfortunate history of being left out of LGBT+ content, merch and celebrations (not only by companies but also by LGBT+ associations and the like)
is that really so? I mean, I do understand that gay (as in MLM) has been often the focus over lesbian in history etc. But otherwise I would think that Bi and Trans have been left out way more than lesbians? Not to speak about aro/ace, queer, etc, which feel even more left out (though luckily there is some progress happening in this regard I think)
and I also feel like lesbian representation has been quite good in Gaming in general? With Ellie from Last of Us, Life is Strange (though admittedly, I don’t know if they are lesbian or bi - but the relationship of the two girls is a pretty big focus), and hasn’t Aloy from Horizon been confirmed as well?
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They are just giving their feedback on this matter without attacking. I have seen way worse regarding LGBTQ+ topics on these forums which you yourself have defended.
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I wish seeing charms would be optional. Being sacrificed by Nemesis on a meathook filled with rainbow flags feels off :/
I don't mind lgbt characters if they are well written.
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Out of the 'common' sexualities, lesbian & gay are the only ones missing, demisexual is also absent and I think that's about it ? The other ones I've seen people ask for are "double flags" like aro+ace or nb+lesbian and stuff like that
I think there's a good possibility that's what's happening but considering we already knew the gay flag was missing, not releasing a flag we know they already have and then teasing "more to come wink wink" is probably going to backfire if the only thing coming is said flag. (also I really want Yui to be confirmed lesbian haha)
And I thank them for everything they've done, but it doesn't mean they can't do better or we should keep quiet when they make mistakes, mostly if they're doing it out the goodness of their heart which would mean they'd probably like to improve.
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i mean.. who even said the killer themselves have been hanging the charms on every single hook anyways?
Lorewise, the maps are generated by the Entity for every trial anew, with everything being created anew - that’s why there is RNG and not everything the same or how it actually was in the real worlds, right?
so maybe it’s the Entity that is hanging the charms on the hooks after all
(edit: well I guess you didn’t imply Nemesis had hanged them as well.. but still.. 🤷♂️ charms are here for player customization, representing yourself and I don’t see any harm there..)
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They did acknowledge that its coming later, which means there is probably a reason for it. I don't think they'd intentionally leave it out for no reason. Maybe they just want to space it out through the month or reveal them along with a character. Who knows. I just didn't see the need to make such a long post like this about it, and that is just me giving my feedback on that.
And I thank them for everything they've done, but it doesn't mean they can't do better or we should keep quiet when they make mistakes, mostly if they're doing it out the goodness of their heart which would mean they'd probably like to improve.
I don't think this was a mistake which was the point I was making before. This feels like unfair criticism, but you're certainly welcome to give it. Like I said, there is probably a reason why it wasn't revealed today so any assumption of it being intentionally left out for any bad reason is unreasonable.
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… which means
I just felt like maybe we should discuss that it's a bit weird and quite uncomfortable to pick and choose who gets to be celebrated and in what order
might still be viable feedback if your assumption of them wanting to space it out.
and your statement
They have done and continue to do so much for the lgbt community and people still find reason to find fault in them.
feels like it’s generalized, that any negative criticism towards how they handle lgbtq+ topics shouldn’t come from the community, which just is wrong (even though I agree this post specifically seems not necessary, OP and others might feel different about it)
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Hey pot, meet kettle.
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Which is why I said they are more than welcome to give their opinion and feedback on it. I just hold the same sentiment as you, that it doesn't feel necessary.
Don't worry, I'm still me. 😉
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Let's try to tone it down a notch, please.
That said, feedback is, of course, appreciated.
I do understand the frustration, however I'm sure there is a reason why those specific charms haven't been released yet and they already confirmed there is much more to come during the month, so I'm hopeful and I'm sure everyone will be equally celebrated this month.
Also a small personal note to add for those who think this is just a videogame and that they are just fictional characters: please read this thread and try to understand that for many people representation is much more important than you might think, especially those who are not able to express themselves because of the society they live in.
Thank you.
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I'm only speaking related to pride month celebration by companies & merch and stuff like that, not representation as a whole (obviously the general public is more familiar with lesbians than they are with asexuals for example). It's just my experience than a lot of times when some sexualities are left out lesbians are always one of them, even though they're not an "obscure" sexuality and are literally the first letter of the acronym. Some examples that comes to mind are the Sims and Among Us making pride flags available and forgetting the lesbian one, or pride merch like socks and scarfs missing the lesbian flag... there's unfortunately a lot of examples of this. Although at first people justified it because the flag had changed so companies didn't know which one to use, now it kinda feels personal.. (and I know this isn't what BHVR is trying to do and a lesbian flag is coming, but it's still very reminiscent of that "trend")
(and I apologize if my statement made it sound like I'm victimizing lesbians or turning representation into a contest and taking away from others' struggle, it really wasn't my intention at all)
I know it's intentional, which is what I'm criticizing for the reasons I've developped in my OG post. Forgetting the gay flag was a (probably) unintentionnal mistake that I'm not too upset about considering they'll fix it, not releasing the lesbian flag on purpose to either make it seem like the gay flag was planned all along or for whatever other reason they don't want to let us know feels quite uncomfortable, not to say hurtful. If they wanted to "spread out" festivities they could have released some charms each week instead of releasing them all except the one they forgot to make, maybe some others that didn't leak and therefore people don't expect to get, and the lesbian one, which we know is already ready to go and don't have a justification as to why we can't get.
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and I apologize if my statement made it sound like I'm victimizing lesbians or turning representation into a contest and taking away from others' struggle, it really wasn't my intention at all
oh no don’t worry about that, you didn’t!
i was just curious as I don’t really follow any of these trends and didn’t know. I can now understand you POV better
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The part where u said announcing a new lgbt character then forgetting them, i felt that for david king. Especially since they have only been giving out old rift and old cosmetics for him rather than giving him new cosmetics on pride month. But nope, lets continue to give our top 5 survivors new cosmetics every chapter instead because they are our money makers.
If they gonna continue doing this, i rather them not reveal anymore lgbt characters if they are going to ignore them without new shop cosmetic outfits for long period of time.
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I'm very excited for everything that's left to come, and am absolutely certain BHVR didn't mean to make anyone feel left out, I just thought i'd let you know that it's disappointing to get a flag charm later than the rest when it's been leaked for a while so everyone expected we'd get them at the same time. (and if Yui isn't confirmed a lesbian she'll still be one in my heart :p)
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To be fair, you never should expect anything just because of leaks any way. It’s not officially reveal information after all.
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I agree, but the leaks were confirmed because moderators replied to people wondering how to get them and told them they would be available during pride month. I'm aware they didn't give an exact date for each charm, but I'm sure you can understand getting all of the leaked flags except one feels uncomfortable for the ones left out. Had they released them a few at a time I don't think it would have been bad, the issue here is just that feels like they singled out lesbians (which again I'm sure was not their intention, but it still doesn't feel great considering the reason for doing that, even if it's going to be an amazing surprise, is still a secret.)
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That reminds me, I haven't put any charms on my Nemesis. I should go do that
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Do the rainbow flag and the new eye and the rainbow birb 🏳️🌈 Nemi is a colorful fella
speaking of rainbow birb.
WHERE ARE THEY BHVR? What have you done to rainbow birbs friends?!
brb, just making a new thread
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Sure, why not? I comment on just about every post talking about camping, tunneling and slugging too. Even made a few of my own.
I can see how releasing them gradually over the course of the month would've been received better rather than so many all at once. If not that, then just all at the same time. Either way, I wouldn't worry too much about it. They've shown a lot of support to the lgbt community so I can't see this happening for any bad reason.
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Yes I agree, I don't think they would have done this if they didn't think it was a good thing. I only made this post to let BHVR know that doing things this way (even if it builds up to be a really nice surprise) was probably a mistake because it doesn't make people wait in excitement but rather make them feel like they were singled out and are not as important as / come after everyone else. I'm personnally excited for what's to come, but I understand why so many lesbians just feel bummed out.
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I kinda feel like this point was more about tonal dissonance than who the charms belong to from a lore perspective.
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Oooh yeah, the birb, I'll probably do that, the rainbow kindred and the Nemesis perk charm.
I've been playing Nemesis with only the Nemesis perk the past couple days. Good times
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I'm sorry they didn't all release at the same time, and I understand the frustration. I'm sure they'll explain it eventually.
When I saw my friend got to use his flags as charms to represent himself when I first started playing, I thought that was so cool. Hopefully soon the last groups of folks get their stuff soon :)
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Idk I hope it's not yui, making it more interesting.
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I'd be happy with anyone tbh, I think a lot of people (me included) want Yui because just she's already a lesbian in our hearts haha. I personally think she'd be less cliché than Nea or Mikaela for eg, but that's probably a matter of personal experience.
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Because it gives people a sense of belonging, safety and pride
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I think it will be a new character that they choose
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Have you ever had one of those moments when a popular streamer or a celebrity admitted they really liked a really obscure game you love but almost no one knows? Or the hype when you meet a new person and you stumble upon a topic of conversation you're really passionate about and the conversation turns into that for hours and hours? This is kinda similar.
Heterosexual characters are "the default", to the point you can see a mile away when they're trying to match them with a "soulmate". When you see this over, and over, and over again you kinda grow desensitized and all you can do is roll your eyes because some of the relationships almost feel forced or coming out of the blue. They're there because they have to be there.
But the moment they put something people can relate to? A strong woman? A black hero? A lovingly gay couple? That hypes people up. They can relate to that, and they feel strongly about the character they relate to. It's easier to connect and like a character because they share something with you.
Putting it in another way so it's easier to understand, you may not care too much or only feel a twinge of sadness when a character gets kicked out of their parent's house, but people that actually had to go through that and had to feel the pain, the loneliness and the uncertainty of the situation can easily be brought to tears by the very same scene you don't care about.
It's easier to connect to characters we relate to. It makes our feelings for them stronger.
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I'm a Chinese Mexican Trans Woman I'm sorry but representation really isn't a huge issue. Like I will literally never experience representation and my life is no different than if I could relate to every character like why is it actually such a big deal that EVERY character needs to be LGBT?
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I find culturally relevant things in entertainment and consumerism in general interesting. Lgbt pride themes have become more common in games in recent years and I like being part of the conversation.
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Representation doesn’t mean the character has to represent every trait/detail though.
but you may feel represented by a trans woman, or a Chinese LGBTQ+ character, or just any mixed character (eg Skull Merchant who is Brazilian Japanese iirc). Some experiences/struggles/relationships/personality traits/etc you can relate to.
and it is important for most people, even those that say they don’t care about it (often times those kind of people are represented everywhere all the time anyways and of course they don’t feel like those that struggle to find characters they can relate to)
that doesn’t mean it is or it has to be important for everyone - you do not have to care. But at least have some empathy for those that do care, because it’s not bad to care at all.
And literally no one asked for every character to be LGBTQ+. Where did you pull that out?
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Your experience doesn't invalidate others', representation matters and you benefit from it whether you're complaining about it or not. Lastly, no one is asking for EVERY character to be LGBT+, and you wouldn't be mad about it if it wasn't a big deal. Go loathe in self-hatred or hang out with ppl who tell you you're one of 'the good ones' because you don't shove 'it' in their face or whatever it is you do. If you speak like bigots who hate you for existing you certainly have unresolved issues and I genuinely hope you sort it out (or you just think because you don't care no one should care, which is a tiiiny bit self-centered, or you just profoundly missed the mark in getting your (still weird) point accross and I'm getting triggered over you using bigot language because of bad communication skills).
In the mean time, the fact that you don't feel the need for representation is absolutely fine, good for you! but please don't argue about how it's not a big deal because you don't care or insinuate that anyone is trying to turn every character gay or use other sentences straight out of a "beware of the gay agenda" manifesto, mostly in places such as a video game forum discussion about a delayed pride charm, which I'm sure you can understand is not the place for these kinds of things.
I only talked about representation because someone politely asked the whys and whats, and although I don't understand why you felt the need to make your disagreement known in a quite violent manner and for no reason whatsover (considering you're obviously not expecting me to explain why I believe representation is important as it's specifically that post you replied to) I'm just going to wish you a life with less hatred than your post display and move on (and you should do the same because again, it's really not the place, also I don't think supposed to care).
(got triggered, sorry to any mod who may be passing through, I tried really hard to not answer to such posts and will go back to ignoring them, promise)
Post edited by Annso_x on3 -
And your feelings aren't universal. Just because -you- don't care about representation, doesn't mean no one else should. Basic human empathy should have taught you that.
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“And literally no one asked for every character to be LGBTQ+. Where did you pull that out?” I have seen people Twitter say stuff like that but then again… its twitter
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I mean.. I guess I myself had asked for it as well. lol
(No but seriously, no one actually means that seriously..)
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Well as long as the representation is handled well then I support it
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OP never said every character needed to be LGBTQ. They literally mentioned *one* survivor, Yui.
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"Heterosexual characters are "the default", to the point you can see a mile away when they're trying to match them with a "soulmate". When you see this over, and over, and over again you kinda grow desensitized and all you can do is roll your eyes because some of the relationships almost feel forced or coming out of the blue. "
I mean its the default because its how life begins. Sure some relationships can feel forced but the same thing can be said about homosexual relationships.
Isn't it also desensitizing when a gay person also has crushes on straight males most of the time? Or am I missing something?
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Oh. You're one of those.
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I really don't care what your sexual orientation/preferences are. It's none of my business. But I can understand where OP is coming from and it's valid criticism. I just don't believe BHVR is being malicious or off-put on doing so with the charms.
Look at how they handle updates. Have to cut them some slack sometimes.
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I didn’t mean I wanted to be a hater against heterosexuality/representation of it. I meant it directly towards your statement. Sorry for not being clear.
btw, there is heterosexuality that doesn’t result in new life and being LGBTQ+ doesn’t automatically mean you can’t ‚create new life‘.
Isn't it also desensitizing when a gay person also has crushes on straight males most of the time
what? Because heterosexual people never have crushes on people they don’t have a chance to be with? Also, this whole gay men Lust after all straight men is a direct result of bad representation and stereotypes and just a great example of why more representation is needed in media in general.
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representation matters so that people can feel like their normal and accepted. If everyone was just straight and white then every minority wouldn't see people like them in media getting to be happy and live their lives. There was a very good example right here on the forums, about a guy with very homophobic family who saw himself represented in david king. It helped him feel normal and like he belonged, thats why its important.
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Honestly i do not feel included in this game at all as the ppl asking for representation are always the same.
So i'm wondering when BHVR will add a flag for every political and religious ideology.
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