Made For This is Objectively Unbalanced
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He already admitted to thinking Adrenaline and Resilience are broken earlier lol.
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I think something that is being overlooked here is attempting to fuse the upsides of two different use cases, when those two use cases are fundamentally mutually exclusive.
Specifically, the idea that the perk is too strong because moving 3% faster "at all times" is a huge advantage. The thing is, you aren't moving that fast at all times, you're moving that fast while injured. That means one of two things:
1: The survivor is staying injured to use MFT at all times. In this scenario, the perk is balanced because staying injured is a risk, and while Haste is strong it isn't i-frames or Endurance. It won't stop a killer power, and it won't stop an M1 from landing if you lose a mindgame or just are facing a stealth killer.
2: The survivor isn't staying injured, and is only using MFT after they've taken a hit. In this scenario, the perk is balanced because it's active for a shorter period of time, comparatively speaking. You have to run for a certain amount of time before MFT becomes noticeable, and there's a very real chance that won't happen if you're only activating it after taking a hit- not to mention leaving yourself vulnerable to Exposed.
Now, that's not to say nothing is wrong with the perk at all. I think the Endurance it gives is too much- as niche as it is, there's no reason a perk as strong as MFT needs a secondary effect at all. I agree with you; that's perk bloat. I also think that this perk is the thing that makes Haste-stacking become more apparently and readily a problem; the fact that it's easy to activate means that stacking it is a lot more accessible, and that can get out of hand fast. I definitely want that addressed.
It'd also be nice to see Killer Exhaustion tools be a little stronger, since they're ostensibly the answer to all (or at least, most of) the survivor's strong chase perks. Longer duration on Fearmonger, shorter cooldown on Blood Echo, stuff like that. Not the direct answer to MFT's strength, but a better suite of tools for killers to deal with it and any other Exhaustion-related perk.
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It's an incredibly strong survivor perk. And has been for a while. But it isn't broken.
I think it's in an acceptable spot and would like other survivor perks to be just as useful. Rather than being either worthless or overpowered.
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your completely missing my point. you are ignoring what I am talking about.
You can absolutely benefit from Made For This and other exhaustion perks at the same time.
Let me explain this in more simple terms. Let us suppose I enter the match as survivor with single perk. Made for this. I get injured and I benefit from this perk. I am only benefiting from this single perk that I equipped. This makes sense as I only have one perk equipped.
Suppose I enter the match with 2 perks. Balance landing and Made for this for example. I get injured and I benefit from this perk. I have not USED balance landing in the match. I have two perks equipped but I have only used 1 PERK in the match. when I use balance landing, I have used my second perk. My first perk made for this becomes disabled as soon as I use the second perk.
There is never a point where I am benefiting from Made for this and other exhaustion perk at the same time. I am using one perk at the start and then I am using a second perk later on. Your not using two perks at the same time. your using one perk at the start and then your using another perk later on which disables first perk. You realize that if I do not trigger exhaustion, It is same as if I have one perk equipped. There is no CONNECTION between using MFT and activating the exhaustion perk. They are two separate perks that trigger at different times and using one disables other.
Your also assuming that I want to wait to use my exhaustion perk. I want to use my exhaustion perk as soon as possible. Why I want to wait to gain guaranteed chase extension with Lithe. I want to use first chance I get to use it. Heck, If I could use Dead hard while healthy, I would use dead hard while healthy to block a hit but of course this is not allowed.
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Comparing a perk that literally made you invincible and made you dash to a 3% haste buff is laughable.
Original DH was overpowered and broken, lets discuss why.
It was overpowered because any alternative to taking it was bad, there was zero reason to not run DH, no other exhaustion perk came close. It didn't just join the meta perks, it was the meta perk.
It was broken because any player could use it to full value due to the iframes, and no killer has a counter to invincibility, on demand iframes will always be broken in this game.
Does MFT make any of the current meta survivor perks bad such as Sprint Brust, Adrenaline?
Does the haste from MFT make it impossible to ever catch survivors? Do killers not have a way to deal with the perk?
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Putting words in my mouth again? What I said was:
"Because the problems that Made For This has absolutely apply to Adrenaline and Resilience too. They're just not as blatantly overpowered."
To clarify, Adrenaline is broken when 4-stacked by a coordinated survivor team. And Resilience is broken when used with MfT. The problem with these 2 perks isn't even the perks themselves. It's a combination of things that make them potentially broken.
Btw, I'm currently too tired to dissect your previous counter-argument. But once I've had some rest I'll start picking apart everything wrong with it tomorrow.
And there's a lot of stuff wrong with it.
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But it literally gives you the same effect as Made For This of being able to perform vaults over pallets and windows that you otherwise wouldnt have. Making mindgames against people using the perk much harder to perform thanks to the faster speed (I forgot the exact math behind it, but the killer has to be roughly .5m closer to be able to hit a Survivor vaulting with Resilience.
Made For This does the exact same thing but has the added requirement of not being able to pair Exhaustion perks with it, mainly Sprint Burst, Lithe or Overcome. Dead Hard could still be paired up with it as well but once thats used (even unsuccessfully) you still get Exhausted and you get absolutely no value out of the perk.
Which at that point why not just run Resilience with DH? Made For This is just a bit more versatile in the sense that it can also make you reach pallets but pair DH with it and you got that pallet problem covered. Sure you could just run all 3 perks together for the ultimate chase build but now you have an entire build basically dedicated to chase and barely anything else to assist you.
So now the last thing youre probably thinking and to me this is the strongest combo; Made For This + Resilience without Exhaustion. This is definitely a strong combo but you are still missing out on an Exhaustion perk meaning if your ass is caught in a deadzone that 3% Haste and 9% faster vault might as well not exist.
Im not saying its a weak perk, its without a doubt strong. But its downside is strong enough to be a balanced perk
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Calling something overpowered means that it needs a nerf. You called both perks overpowered, which means you want them nerfed.
Not sure how that's putting words in your mouth aside from saying broken instead of OP in my post.
You can pick apart my posts all you want, that's why I make posts.
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Resilience shouldn't have 9% repair speed bonus.
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Saves less than 7.5 seconds of gen time
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I agree it does too much
Remove the secondary effect and keep the haste
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And gives 9% healing,unhook, vault, opening exit gate, cleanse/bless speed.
Even if it saves 7 seconds of repairing generator, it is huge imo.
Overzealous grants 10% repair bonus, while Resilience giving 9% speed bonus to almost every interaction seems overkill to me.
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It requires you to be injured while performing any of those actions. That’s a very vulnerable state to be in, given how loud injured survivors are. It’s not like they’re easy to ignore. Well, not unless you’re a bad killer.
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If you arent uncatchable with this perk its a skill issue sry. This perk is totaly busted, because the effect is too strong to be obtained in such a simple way. Nearly no restriktions that rlly matter.
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Funny how this perk is so "balanced" and not at all problematic that it has already become a meta perk in practically every build and in every match at least 2 survivors are using it. All in less than a week that this perk is live
Wondering why
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Is it not just as possible that it's our first universally-useful and not niche or gimmicky new perk in a while? At least on the survivor side, anyways.
If a new perk is actually comparable to currently often-run perks, and viable when compared to them too, doesn't it make sense people would use it a lot to try it out?
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Please give me break
EVERYONE know this perk is busted and broken, of course it's useful, it's broken as hell
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You're missing the point a little. IF the perk weren't busted, but it were just a fair and balanced new perk, would you not also see people running it a lot so soon after it came out?
It's not a great metric to use for proving anything, is my point.
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No
How many killers are using singularity's new perks ? Let me guess..no one or just few.
How many survivors are using MfT ? Almost everyone
That's the difference between a fair and balanced new perk and something so OP and broken
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...Are the Singularity's perks strong and exciting, though? They're certainly fair and balanced, but they're also explicitly the kind of thing I was pointing out MFT as not being: niche and gimmicky. Genetic Limits is the only one with broad application, and it's currently weaker than it'd be otherwise because people are running MFT.
That's my point, entirely. Made For This is a perk that a lot of people would want to use regardless of if it's OP or not, because it's a genuine viable alternative to Exhaustion perks. A balanced version of this perk, whether you think it currently is or not, would also be run very frequently because it's something new and exciting that isn't niche.
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Sure, if this perk deactivate after 30 seconds i'm sure NO one will use it. Why ? Because it won't be broken.
See how many people are here defending this broken thing and guess why ? because YOU KNOW it's broken
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Well, then lets "carefully assess the situation, while collecting more data and act on the whole thing in a non-hectic fashing, by either side-grading it or giving it the smallest of nerfs. How does 2.5% faster movementspeed sound? But you now also get it after unhooking someone and taking a protection hit."
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9% to everything only if you're injured
Overzealous is 10% as long as you dont get hit, and 20% if you cleanse a Hex.
They're not really comparable perks
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The fact that this abhorrently reductive and ignorant reply has the same number of upvotes as the original post really makes me understand by BHVR has a reputation for not listening to community feedback.
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Just because you and others seem to think being injured is irrelevant doesn't mean that's how the game works.
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It's not that it's irrelevant. It's that being injured isn't nearly as scary as you're painting it out to be, especially when you have a passive bonus to your distance management, AKA the core skill curve of chases in this game. Being injured should be a bad thing, but there were already perks that gave you a big offset to what risk there is to being injured like Resilience and Dead Hard, and MFT is far and away the biggest offset for what little risk there is to being injured that has ever been introduced to the game.
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Tell me being injured isn't scary vs:
Nurse
Blight
Spirit
Any of the stealth killers
Wesker
etc.
It still very much is a bad thing, given as though people still heal in the highest level of play. The whole point of these perks is to add a playstyle that's risk-oriented to preserve efficiency. If you choose not to heal, you get a bonus to your gameplay and can add 10+ seconds to your gens, but will remain at one healthstate and be trackable through sight and sound.
If DH still didn't require hooks, I would agree with you, since you'd have two health states always.
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-Nurse, Blight, and Spirit are known outliers because they're, you know, game-breakingly strong. I don't really like to fall back to this defense but they very much do not count—hell, I've gone against Spirit with MFT more than once and being able to easily outpace her before she can start phasing makes a massive difference in your distance management and survivability.
-Being injured against a stealth killer is only really all that and a bag of chips against Wraith; the others have little to no mobility that prevents attentive survivors from outwitting and outrunning their stealth tactics.
-Wesker is eh; he's a balanced killer and if you can loop him while healthy, you can loop him while injured, especially if you have Made For This.
-"etc"
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To be honest, I think if you completely removed the Haste, MFT would still be a very good perk. Just take away the Haste effect because it's fundamentally broken and then take away the exhaustion caveat.
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I don't think you give the devs enough credit.
I reckon they knew it would likely be overturned, but they would rather err on the side of making it too strong than too weak. After all, why would you buy the character if the perks were trash?
I don't believe it's malicious, they arent omnipotent to know exactly how strong it needs to be... but you definitely don't want to release something underpowered... so it just makes sense to release it strong and dial it back.
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Like release mettle of man, making the perk too strong to boost sales early on and most likely nerf it soon after.
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Nah all of these nerfs, and changes are clearly pushing people away. It's becoming very unfun
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Does Resilience give you endurance for 10 seconds after repairing a gen or something? No I didnt think so.
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bHVR I dont understand why this Perk which is a PERFECT perk for Greedy Playstyles also need to have endurance effect on it?
I wish you would sit down 2 seconds and explain why you thought it would be fair and balanced?
Either way, I suggest you remove the endurance effect, it would still be a solid perk.
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I think made for this is literally much better variant of resilience, I honestly believe resilience by itself is extremely strong, but then MfT does work on: windows, pallets, dead zones, within loops, against killer power, against killer lunge, even the time you are not chased by killers, and can be stacked with resilience too.
Resilience is great in allowing you to have little more time for safe vault, made for this is great in allowing you to have little more time in literally every situations, and then with MfT survs can even gain more distance when killers can't move/has to walk around.
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That really isn't that uncommon...
The terror radius starts at 32 meters. In less then 6 seconds the killer is within 5 m and if you have played survivor at all you'd know that leaving the second you hear the terror radius leads to gens never getting done. You need to stick to it sometimes
Not to mention killer powers/perks. Hillbilly get's within 5 meter in less then 3 seconds of hearing the terror radius. Sadeko get's within 5 meters after 4 seconds of hearing her subtle lullaby. Myers in tier 2 gets within 5 meters of distance in 2.3 seconds of hearing his terror radius. Less then one second if he has monitor and abuse.
Between this and the person who uses sprint burst to go to the closest tile i'm beginning to get the feeling you people don't actually play survivor...
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Chase indicator do exists though.
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This agree with (very well thought out reply btw)
Made For This is 100% the better perk in chase, but Resilience is definitely nothing to scoff at either.
To me I believe it comes down to the user on whats more beneficial to them. The one more meant for chases (MFT) or the one thats a bit more versatile (Resilience)
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Finally, Someone that agrees with me... Made for This is stupid strong with two effects and it should only be one of them. I do think the passive 3% Haste while injured is too strong, even if the Survivors is or isn't running a exhaustion and it is not so easily in the Killer's hands to identify, bait, or even forced the Survivors to go exhaust all the time without a specific addon or perk to counter it.
If it was up to me to rework the Haste status effect, I would make it a exhaustion effect that has a "charge" meter; which applies the Haste speed for up to 40 seconds, which will be the duration of its exhaustion cooldown and then it stops working if you continue to run more then 40 seconds, and you have to wait another 40 seconds to recover your perk back. But I like your proposal
Oh and that Buckle Up needs the 2nd effect of Made for This; in picking up downed Teammates or healing them to gain endurance to make it viable or useful.
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MFT works really well with Dead Hard.
At point you get exhausted, you are supposed to be dead anyway. All that time before it, you can get value from MFT.
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I agree. I am using it with DH. Your still using MFT for first part of the chase and DH when possible.
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A good night's rest and some well cooked bacon and eggs have given me the strength to disassemble your arguments. Let's begin.
"Zoning and creating deadzones is a very common tactic in high-level killer play, most videos I watch of pro killers choose a section of the map to control, particularly ones with 3-gens, and force survivors to shed blood to chip away at the objective there. Idk why you would ever want survivors to use nothing against you, I personally, am overjoyed if I can zone a survivor into using Shack pallet at the start of a match for example."
You previous argument was not talking about chipping down the map over time. You specifically mentioned how the killer should have removed all good loops entirely by the end-game. You've changed your mind about what point you were trying to make and are acting like it was the same. As shown by one of your previous statements:
" If a killer gets to end-game with multiple strong loops still intact. They failed."
Furthermore, it is far better for the killer if the survivor's resources are never used in the first place. Why deal with the strongest structures on the map when you could focus on protecting a few select areas that survivors have to enter if they want to repair gens? But this is a pretty off-topic point. So I'll move on.
"Being injured is still an issue for even the best survivors, which is why resets still happen in tournaments. Iron Will and Off The Record are mediocre perks. And being less of a risk does not mean the risk isn't there or that its irrelevant, I don't see why this is a point of contention."
DbD tournaments are such a massively different experience compared to average DbD games that you should never use them to prove a point. Comp DbD and regular DbD are 2 entirely different games.
Average DbD players aren't going to play as optimally as possible. They're going to play in the way that is the easiest and most effective. That's where MfT comes in. Why bother trying to safely heal to minimize the risk of getting downed, when you can slap on a perk that gives you more movement speed by being injured?
"3% haste for playing without exhaustion and an extra healthstate is balanced, very strong, but balanced because there is still healthy counterplay and tons of alternative perks that rival it in strength on both sides."
As I've already stated, you can still run exhaustion perks with MfT and get value out of both. That point is moot. Your 2nd point is completely insane. What "healthy counterplay" is there to a survivor getting a permanent speed boost once injured? If you're talking about killers being able to disable the perk by exhausting survivors, I've already addressed this point in my post.
"Even if that weren't the case, the overwhelming majority of survivors are not good. And unless you are playing comp all the time, you are not running into really good survivors very often, if ever. The game shouldn't be balanced at an echelon that 99% of the playerbase will never reach, it should just be a consideration when it comes to not rendering the game unplayable in a competitive setting.
Tournaments already have tons of rules regarding perks and items, so MFT absolutely does not threaten the competitive community, whereas perks like Reassurance absolutely stirred the pot since hookstages are crucial in tourney games."
At this point you've gone completely off-topic and have started rambling about the DbD comp scene. This is completely irrelevant to the points I was making about MfT. I find it baffling that you mention how most survivors aren't good but don't see the contradiction that makes with your previous point about how comp players treat being injured.
One minute you're using comp players as an example of how staying injured is risky. And the next minute you're admitting that 99% of players do not play like comp players. You've made your own point redundant.
"If perks that encourage a high-risk/high-reward playstyle such as MFT, Resilience, and Adrenaline are being called overpowered, then there truly is no survivor playstyle left that isn't overpowered. So arguing about it becomes pointless. Permit me to be dramatic, but at this point the devs should just stop releasing new survivor perks if the only acceptable ones are the trash we got in the previous two chapters, as it needlessly adds bloat to the roster of perks."
Resilience and Adrenaline are situationally overpowered. MfT is overpowered on a fundamental level. They are not the same. And the notion that all survivor playstyles are overpowered, because a single playstyle happens to be broken, is ridiculous.
DbD is a very unbalanced game and there are parts are more or less balanced than others. We should be striving to bring all of them to a comfortable middle ground instead of encouraging the divide of "Broken content" and "Garbage content". And we can start by stopping survivors from getting a game-breaking speed boost just by being injured.
It is possible to nerf an overpowered perk and still have it be useful without being broken.
"As stated before, the perk is very likely to get nerfed, but I am of the opinion that this will be a kneejerk reaction to overblown outrage, rather than any sort of "objective" problem like your title suggests."
I know the DbD community is prone to outrage. And I cannot speak to how reasonable the other arguments for nerfing MfT are. But I can speak to my own. And I can say for certain that I didn't make this post on whim.
I made it because I thought about the perk in the context of the game it's in and the how the game is designed and balanced. And I realised how unbalanced it is and described exactly how it's unbalanced as objectively as I could. Which my own experiences with and against the perk have confirmed.
Made For This is objectively, blatantly, overpowered. And you should stop defending it so the game can get just a tiny bit closer to being balanced. DbD will likely never be well balanced. But if no one tries to understand how and why the game is designed, especially the dev team, then it'll only become more unbalanced and unfun over time. Which it has been.
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Lmao you really think being one shot at all times and being easier to find without certain perks too accessibleyou generally want to avoid being injured as survivor
also, can made for this be powerful yes but you generally need to revolve a build around it though and the 3% haste can buy you a little more time around loops if you know what you’re doing but that’s the thing you need to know how to play in order to get the max benefit from the perk
another thing should be mentioned is that bloodlust 1 alone is 5% haste and that’s basekit for every killer
Post edited by jeffkillsyou96 on0 -
How is having a perk that requires you to be interactive with the perk greedy would you rather more healspeed/gen rush perks
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You never heard of the concept of "Greeding the Pallet" ? or are you just upset from the word greedy?
Made for This is candy for that playstyle incase you didnt know.
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if a survivor is greeding pallets then lunge at them don’t respect if you know they gonna greed learn to play killer just like how survivors need to learn to loop killers need to know how to counter loops
just like how good survivors are going to be unpredictable you need to know what to do
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Yes that is what should happen, but instead this new perk is becoming more common than old DH.
No perk should have such majority.
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Well the perk is only good if a survivor knows what they’re doing it’s not like you’re just guaranteed to escape a chase just because of MFT it’s knowing how to counter loops and out predicting each other and again bloodlust 1 alone gives 5% haste and that’s basekit and stacks
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And if MFT activated after 15 seconds like Bloodlust, I would feel about it the same way. But it does not.
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What gets me is people don't realize how subtle speed changes drastically effect the game. It's not as noticeable with killer perks because they don't last an indefinite time, they all have a drawback aside maybe NOED if you don't cleanse, and not to mention killer has 4 targets to divvy that speed boost into.
Not to mention the multiple ways this perk could keep the 3% speed but be balanced for it:
Speed boost only applies if another survivor is slugged
3% speed boost for x seconds
Start with X tokens, when injured lose token
Three examples off the top of my head to make it better balanced.
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