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Carefully attempting to counter arguments for "Made for This" being fine
Before we begin...
I know 90% of you will ignore this, but no one can say I didn't try. You can think whatever you want. You can even think this perk is the pinnacle of design. I will disagree with it until the day I die, but you are entitled to have an opinion even if it's contrary to mine. I only ask that you respect that I, also, have an opinion even if it's contrary to yours.
Resilience
A common argument for this perk is that Resilience provides a benefit for being injured yet no one thinks that perk is a problem. On the surface, it sounds like a fair point. However, there are nuances to this. There are two main uses for Resilience: in the chase for faster vaults, or on gens for the 9% faster repairs.
Chase
In a chase, Resilience turns a 0.5-second fast vault into a 0.455-second vault. That's it. 0.045-second difference. Yeah, it does more for medium vaults, going from 0.9 to 0.819, but it's still a very small reduction. Make no mistake, that small reduction does matter but it's a very subtle effect. All but the tightest hits will still land just fine.
Even more, the vaulting mostly matters regarding windows, something the Entity will block off after 3 vaults. It does nothing to help you reach pallets that most killers will break immediately. MFT, however, will help you reach that window or pallet. Even if you forgo looping entirely, it will earn you maybe 3-5 seconds just W-keying. Might not sound like much, but those are 3-5 extra seconds to reach a pallet or window you would have otherwise gone down before reaching; 3-5 seconds translates to 12~20m covered in a game where 1m can make a huge difference, do not be fooled.
In essence, what I am saying is that MFT has a much stronger effect that requires less effort to get value out of and is more versatile in its usage.
Outside of chase
Resilience outside of chase is very risky. Yes, you repair 9% faster which matters a lot. However, unless you 99'd your heal, if the killer shows up and you're in a bad spot, you're dead.
But, MFT doesn't have that risk. It's a perk used in a chase. You don't need to stay injured if you're going to hop on a gen. What? Then MFT does nothing? You're either not in a chase (in which case, it would do nothing) or the killer gets the drop on you and will likely hit you, meaning MFT immediately activates again.
In general, this argument relates heavily to the next point...
You need to be injured
Respectively, I have to ask: so what?
No, really. So what? The killer has to hit you twice (barring insta-downs, obviously). Iron Will requires you to be injured. Dead Hard required you to be injured. Lucky Break requires you to be injured. If being injured by itself was a big deal, Legion wouldn't be considered a low-tier killer.
If you heal, you might say, "Then MFT does nothing." No. That's very wrong. If you're chased while healthy, then you tank a hit and then MFT works just fine. The killer drops chase, it'll do nothing. But then, the killer dropped chase. That basically means you've won that chase. If they don't drop chase, MFT is very much giving value.
"But what if I'm injured and in the open and the killer surprises me? Sprint Burst is way better then!" If you're injured and in the open, that is literally the only perk in the game that can save you. Even the Original Dead Hard would not save you from that because every killer worth their salt would wait until you DH in their face before downing you. Yes, there are situations where SB is better. No perk in the game will be better than every other perk in its category in every situation; if there is, that perk outright shouldn't exist.
It's only 3%
And NOED is only 4%.
And if you bring up Dark Theory's 2%, I will remind you that the thing that makes Dark Theory bad is that it's 2% if you set up a boon (which takes 14 seconds), only works within a 24m radius of the aforementioned boon, and largely can only be used in conjunction with the resources around the boon which is complete RNG (regarding totem placement, tile placement, etc).
Furthermore, now the speed difference between you and a 4.6 killer is 112%. They are a Dark Theory faster than a 110% killer, you know, the killers aren't supposed to loop normally. And Entity help those 4.4 killers (sans Spirit), because if you send them to a map such as Garden or Haddonfield, you have this perk, I will not blame them for giving up.
It does nothing against top tiers
This is actually true. Nurse? She teleports, that 3% is a joke. She'll just laugh as she dances on your team's slugged bodies. Blight? Congrats, he went from being 130% faster than you to 127% faster than you discounting add-ons. Yeah, you're still dead. Spirit? Not only is she fast but she's invisible. You're still gonna die.
But, I'd argue that in of itself is an issue. This is a perk that only matters on killers that already have a hard time. We had another perk that did that: Mettle of Man.
Now, I'm not saying this perk is stronger than the original Mettle of Man. I am saying the same principle applies, however. Mettle of Man gained stacks through basic attacks, meaning it did nothing against the meta killers at the time---*Nurse, Billy, and Huntress. So, it only hurt the killers that were already struggling.
*Despite her attacks being considered Basic then, Nurse's attacks did not give MoM stacks. This was a bug, likely relating to post-blink lunges being a Sub-Basic attack rather than a purely basic or special attack.
MFT does almost nothing against Nurse, Blight, or Spirit. But you're going to feel it if you're a Sadako or even Singularity himself. A perk that hurts those that already struggle---that, to me, is a poorly thought-out perk.
You can't use exhaustion perks!
Yes. You can.
You can't use Sprint Burst. But you can use Exhaustion perks, the best of which is Dead Hard. It won't work in your first chase, but afterward, you can be healthy, force the killer to M1 and chase you through MFT, and right when you're about to get hit, DH for another health state. Sure, now MFT does nothing but just got MFT and then extra health state from DH. You have gotten a ton of value already.
Survivors never get good perks!
.... what?
Do you mean like CoH that had to get nerfed repeatedly to be remotely fair? And is still a good perk with some coordination?
Reassurance that makes camping extremely risky for killers?
OtR that was buffed to give Endurance for 80 seconds and works twice, meaning a killer can't simply outwait your base BT or even instantly down you if they get the drop on you while a teammate is healing you (provided you didn't tap a gen, meaning you're not getting tunneled)?
Yes, there are been a lot of stinkers. For both sides. Have any of you seen a killer using Septic Touch? Leverage? If yes, wish them well in their Adepts.
But Bloodlust!!!
Yeah? What about it?
Bloodlust exist as a catch up mechanic. This is because sometimes, RNG will spawn unimaginably strong combinations, some spots border on infinites (or are ones if you're 110% can don't build up BL), and was literally buffed in 6.1.0 because there are still spots where BL is meant to help killers and the devs believe it's necessary.
I don't see how you can justify comparing a perk to a baseline mechanic implemented specifically to ensure certain loops/spawns are never gamebreakingly strong.
Comments
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Resilience outside of chase is very risky. Yes, you repair 9% faster which matters a lot. However, you're injured.
You need to be injured
Respectively, I have to ask: So what?
You wrote these back-to-back.
I get what you're getting at, but you should absolutely have worded this very differently.
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Fair point. Did a small edit to reduce the redundancy. My word choice and eloquence leave much to be desired but I tried my best.
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I mean good counterplay is just to run an exhaustion perk/addon.
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To be fair, Reassurance isn't that good without coordination and OTR is only good if the Killer decides not to tunnel, which is becoming more and more an oddity.
CoH was very busted for a long time, but that perk released TWO years ago.
I do think MFT is probably fine. I would really only nerf the Endurance affect, I don't think the perk needs that.
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Which is nigh nonexistent and pretty inconsistent in general.
If it was actually reliable to "just run an exhaustion perk/addon", DH wouldn't ever be a problem because same applies to it.
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A perk giving you extra 25% distance for everything in chasing FOREVER can't be fine unless it has a huge downside.
But in this case right now it just a perk makes shift W into pre-drop become so problematic,it could actually be more problematic than MOM consider that unlike MOM it can even active it's OP effect in the first chasing make the first chasing (the weakest state of killer) become so much longer.
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lmao, it's not even close to MoM.
It's closerto Hyperfocus. Really good in theory, not often good in practice.
It's not an issue that I see a desperate need to be addressed immediately. Perhaps it does turn out to be slightly overtuned, perhaps it doesn't.
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I was on 0 sleep auto pilot the other day and brain dead talking to my friend, looked back and couldn't believe the killer still wasn't on me yet.
3% is far more impactful than so many people think on this forum.
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If anything, MFT incentivises not healing in a meta where the only real slowdown for Killers is Survivors healing. Decent Survivors are just not going to heal and do gens since they have that bit more movement speed to make it to a safe tile.
Even some visual indicator that a Survivor has this perk equipped would be nice, rather than leave the Killer wondering the whole match if they misplayed at certain tiles until the endgame perk screen. The Killer would also has the choice to decide whether to continue the chase ingame, just like how the Killer could choose to “wait it out” for DH.
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MOM is a Op perk right?
But even MOM has these limits
1.need to set up(even if you must can set up before you die in most of cases)
Which limits it can using in early game.
2.having downside(if killer drop the chasing after MOM affect, killer can seeing your arua forever until you got down)
3.Can only use once.
Value gain from MOM
One extra health Bar,
And MFT?
Limit:
no limit,no set up,no downside
Value:
25%extra distance for everything in chasing which could be consider better than an extra health bar.
Ah almost forgot,it even has a second effect.
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If you told the truth then maybe.
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25% distance is not joking.
Just imagine the pallet and windows are 25% closer than now,oh it is even better, because you have more reaction time than just make pallet and windows 25% closer.
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I will say i dont think ive escaped or lasted over a minute in chases more than when this perk came out. The 3% is nuts for chaining stuff. But most killers have something to get you early. Their own perks that could give them catchup. Or just the map can mess with ya. I just don't like the haste stacking.
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It just doesn't make sense there are perks giving buffs because you are injured.
The only perk I can understand is Iron Will because it mitigates grunts of pain penalty.
However, Resilience having repair bonus is an outdated feature and Made For This' speed bonus need to be gone.
Also those who defend these because there are killers like Nurse/Blight or else, they need to be changed along with these perks.
These perks just make weak killers miserable to play and eventually will cause increased ratio of killers you 'hate'.
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I am ok if MFT is the only perk that survivor bring.
But that perk synergy too well with other speed perk, making it too overpowered.
MFT + Resillence + Balance Landing / Lithe (active it if you think killer gonna catch up in a loop). Personally, I didn't favor DH, u can only use it twice per match, and not able to use it on 1st chase.
Using this build, and some broken map design (garden of joy etc), basically most of the time killer give up chasing me, it took too much time for them to down me, and I not a good looper.
Suggestion: perhaps make it not able to stack with other speed perk.
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Perks that buff your injured state are absolutely fine as long as the effect is not anything crazy.
3% movement speed is not insane. I measured a gained distance time of less than 0.5 sec when running from one end of Midwich Elementary School all the way to the opposite wall. That's not a huge effect no matter how you put it.
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So, two things:
You've mentioned in other posts about a '24m chase' which is where (I assume) your getting this 25% value from. If so, this is incredibly misleading since that is a single *thought experiment* number that, even if it captures real game data, it only captures one, very specific, and honestly, cherry picked scenario to try and highlight your point.
Why a percentage? When people were complaining (rightly so) about old dead hard for distance the argument was always about chase time. 'It adds 40s on average to chase', even if the number didn't apply to every chase.
Again, we're back to trying to make MfT as evil as possible, because the percentage is highly dependent on chase time, which only BHVR would have, though I'm not sure they even have the tools to track that level of detail.
In reality, exhaustion perks like lithe or Sprint burst will extend chases by as much or more than MfT, even while healthy, in a lot of situations too. Especially if the chase involves any mechanics that hard counter MfT, such as instadowns from healthy, bloodlust, or nearly any killer power mechanic.
Most exhaustion perks grant 3s of 150% movement speed, and in those 3 seconds the survivor moves an extra 6m over base move speed (18m vs 12m). In order for MfT to even come close to that distance, you'd have to be in chase, while injured, for 50s to gain an additional 6m of distance to even match a Sprint burst or lithe.
50s is an absurdly long time for *half* a chase. Bloodlust 3 takes less time to obtain than that, and even bloodlust 1 could be gained *3 times* in that long of a chase if the killer is intentionally kicking pallets to get rid of it.
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Idk I just don't think mft is a huge issue for the game in general. I used it a couple of times to get my gabriel adept and it just didn't do that much. And I've not had any issues against it as killer.
And depending who you play there is a lot of exhaustion infliction around to use. Plus using mft does lock you out of most exhaustion perks. Apart from dh but dh is pretty bad now.
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On the surface, you're correct.
However, that's the difference in *mobility.* Not in a chase where the average killer gains 0.6m of distance every second. Now it's 0.48m every second, while 4.4 killers only gain 0.28m with this perk in play.
If you're still confused, imagine this: there's a difference in 12m between you and the killer.
You're obviously running away at 4m/s, while the killer is pursuing at 4.6m/s.
Your speed is partially negating theirs, as you're a target moving *away* but they're still faster. So, 4.6 - 4 (sur speed), and you'll find the killer is getting 0.6m closer every second.
So, 12/0.6 and it'll take a killer 20 seconds to catch you. Add in this perk, and it becomes 12/0.48, meaning 20 becomes 25. That's 5 extra seconds to reach a pallet/window.
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These people just don't want to admit they're being outplayed and the perk is the only thing they can blame even when it only shaves off 0.5 sec not even a whole one, they're acting like people are moving at 15 percent speed faster
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Uhhh
I said it gain 25% distance because it gain you 25% distance.
It doesn't really matter the start distance between you and the killer,it will always gain 25% extra distance.
24m just an example, because the number is not crazy far or too close,it is more realistic in truly game play.
Sured we can use 16m as examples either.
Normally a killer need 26.667(16/(0.15*4))sec to catch up .
With MFT, it would be 33.333(16/((0.15-0.03)*4))sec to catch up.
See?it is still 25% more.
And fairly to said,i think 25% more distance for anything in chasing forever just by 1 perk without limit, downside,set up, just too gaming breaking.
And 50 sec isn't long at all especially with MFT.
Just like I said,a 24 m distance with MFT already took killer 50 sec to catch up,and in reality you even have pallet and windows to gain more distance than just shift W,for example you being hit already gain you 16 m distance, you just need to pre-drop pallet one time then you already gain more than 24 m.
And this is even the most skilless game play example.
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When people say you can't use exhaustion perks they mean you can't use the better exhaustion perks.
Sprint burst doesn't work at all. Lithe goes together horribly with it too. Go further down the list and you end up with the very situational ones.
The only exhaustion perk combo with it that isn't a meme or highly situational is dead hard cause they have the same activation conditions.
And there is a reason dead hard has dropped in use rate
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Although I do agree with these counter arguements I think the core concept of the perk (haste while injured) isn't broken although does have the issue of strong against weak killers. Ultimately the amount of chase needed for this to be better distance than sprintburst/lithe is 50 seconds which considering you're injured is quite an ask against a lot of killers. On top of the killers mentioned it's a bit limited against chase focused killers such as nemesis or deathslinger for this reason. The aspect of "out in the open" is better worded as "caught of guard" namely against stealth killers. Against stealth killers even lithe is better than MFT against many stealth options as vaulting a nearby window will gain you a lot of distance where as with MFT it can still be quite unsafe. This isn't to say the perk is bad here but against the top tiers, chase focused, stealth killers and instadowns you'd much rather another option. Now this does mostly make it good against lower tier killers which isn't an ideal which we agree with.
I would argue the biggest issue is the point mentioned about exhaustion, using this then getting value from DH or balanced landing is too much imo. Changing it to actually give exhaustion or a slight nerf (2% or a time limit) could be in order but the principle isn't over powered.
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Each time a perks come out and give some little advantage for the survivor, it's the same thing
I don't know what is a "good designed perks for survivor" each times someone respond to this, even Hope is not a good perk because the haste effect, even if it's only in the endgame, adrenaline, too op, gen perks, too op (but I understand that, the gen are too fast with the good perks and a toolbox) healing perks, too op, aura reading for survivor? If the survivor can see the killer aura, too op, even distorsion now people complain about that
So yeah, if people are mad now because EACH PERKS who are "good" for survivor ,people complain about it and it got nerf
And... About the killer perks who are nerfed lastly... It's not really about the perk himself, but because a lot of killer used them for only "three gen"-ing
When Killer camp, slug, tunnel, three gen, people say 'git gud and use perks if you have some problem"
When it come for the opposed side, the perks have to be destroy
I'm the only one who find that NOT logic?
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i think both sides go after whatever in the meta from the opposition and when it get nerf move to next most useful thing. That just the way dbd work
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I don't even think I was finding a perks for killer op... Yeah, when I was playing the game my first hour, but after that... I don't give a single F about the perks in the two side, but, I find more perks from the survivor side weak, than in the killer side
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When creating an argument against a perk, I would advise you start by listing it's problems first, expound on those issues second, and then provide context third.
I know your title is "attempting to counter arguments," but if Made for This is really an issue, you shouldn't have to counter any arguments. You can just lay out the facts and your findings into a persuasive essay that articulates how Made for This moves beyond being useful and enters the territory of being oppressive.
You've countered, what I believe to be, the worst arguments in favor of Made for This. It is difficult for me to enter this conversation when it doesn't feel like you are looking at the bigger picture.
Just my two cents.
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I will keep this in mind for the future. Thank you.
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Everyone knows it's busted. There's been in depths posts about the math, cost-benefit analysis
The people using it don't care. They want to keep their busted toy because messing with the "other side" is more important to them than ensuring everyone has fun.
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I thought we were talking about original Mettle of Man.
Also, your numbers for MFT are the absolute worst case scenario and assume that the Survivor is both in an incredibly favorable positions and makes no mistakes.
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It's original mettle of men, what do you mean?
25% extra distance is literally it's effect, what do you mean the absolute worst case?
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I see, it was just worded weird, my apologies.
Almost every Exhaustion perk gives you 150% movement speed for 3 seconds. In those 3 seconds, you move 18m. Normally, you'd move 12m, so you get 6 extra meters of movement, not bad. MFT gives you a 3% Haste effect. In order for that to be equivalent, you'd need to be in chase for FIFTY seconds while injured. You are better off running SB or Lithe to delay the first hit.
Made For This is a "win harder" perk. It's not going to save you from someone the same skill as you or better than you. It's only going to let you dunk on people worse than you.
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Just want to chime in.
Assuming the killer is chasing you, you're not getting 6m of distance every second on them. It's 6m subtracted by the killer's current speed. Assuming they're an average 4.6, then 6-4.6 = 1.4m gained on the killer every second for a total of 4.2m. Assuming you run at 4m/s while they're still 4.6 catching up, then they'll take 7 seconds to make up that distance (4.2/0.6).
Made For This is trickier since it doesn't so much give you distance as much as it slows how fast the killer catches up.
If we assume a survivor starts running at 12m (minimum range needed to start a chase), it would normally take a 4.6 killer 20 seconds to catch up. Account for a SB, 20 will become 27.
Made For This, by reducing 0.6m gained to 0.48m, increases 20 to 25. Sounds inferior, however, MFT continues to work after you drop a pallet and w-key (or loop regularly). Other Exhaustion perks do not.
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Lots of people say that, but they actually underrated the power of MFT.
We don't even need to talk about how op it would be in the looping.
Just talk about the skilless and steady game play,the shift W into pre-drop.
You only need to shift w after being hit, then pre-drop a pallet once with MFT,then it is already longer than 50sec.
How could it be? sounds unreal right?
Yes, this perk just too powerful that it sounds unreal.
With MFT, killer need to spend 50sec to catch up a 24m distance.
And being hit already gain you 16 m, pre-drop a pallet force killer to kick it gain you another more than 9m (2.34sec*4m).
See? it's already more than 24 m.
In other words, you only need to shift W and pre-drop once, it's already stronger than SB.
And you can keep doing the shift w into pre-drop stuff, cause due to the MFT ,killer need to spend more than 18sec (9/(0.12*4)) to catch up,and in that time, survivor can easily went to next pallet and pre-drop it.
This doesn't even consider if the survivor actually knows how to loop.
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Uhhhh what?
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Unless you're Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Wesker, Huntress, Deathslinger, Wraith, Clown, Legion, Oni, Pinhead, Twins or Knight.
You are kinda countered if you're Singularity or Billy.
Everyone else is pretty hard countered by it.
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Ah yeah, the fun for the other... A lot of people think about that, all killer think about the fun for the survivor, but not survivor because these people use a perk for looping and not doing gen
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Since Mov Speed is so crucial in this game, in think MFT should be reworked into another thing. 3% for just being injured and not exausted is a huge deal - and you can combo it with Lithe or even DH - especially against the non top-tier killers. I was seeing some matches were because of Made For This the survivor could reach 3 pallets he would not reach without the extra moviment speed. For a perk with so low requirements, i think its too much.
Maybe a quick fix for MFT would be: you get the 3% mov speed if you are not exausted, but after 30s, you gain 60/50/40s extra seconds of exaustion. This way, the perk could help you in chase, but only in a limited time, and if you use an exaustion right before it expires, you would have a large amount of time exausted.
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If you want my opinion? Up the haste to 7% but it only lasts for 10 seconds after healing a survivor (same duration and condition as the Endurance). It's like a Reverse BT when picking up a slug. Much more reasonable.
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MFT is simply a repeat of old Dead Hard, getting extra loops in chase for free, simply because you're hurt. It's proof that the designers either don't really understand why DH used to be busted, or they do understand but they are ok with reintroducing the same issue as long as it's on a new, shiny perk that can entice players. At least DH had the excuse of making Nurse more bearable to face, MFT just exists to make M1 killers even weaker.
You don't really have to make a choice, though, you can run MFT and also Lithe. Judicious use of Sprint Burst is probably better on the whole, but that's better than most things, even deep wound Dead Hard when you could activate it whenever. Before it got nerfed people were loudly exclaiming that it would lead to a rise of ravenous Sprint Burst equipped gangs of survivors that would NEVER let you get an initial hit. That didn't materialize for the obvious reason that Sprint Burst is hard to use and is privy to some inherent limitations. What materialized instead is between 2-4 survivors most games running MFT because, sure, it may not be as good, but when all you have to do to get value out of it is press W and pre-drop pallets, why wouldn't you?
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The Knight is heavilly countered by this perk, as with MFT the survivor can run faster than the guards, meaning they represent no risk for the survivors. Of course you still can "pinch" the survivor with the Knight and the Guard, but if the guard does not take the best route, the surv can outrun the guard easily.
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NoeD is only 4% on top of an already much faster killer that can now down you in one hit. Made for This is not going to grant you an extra 3-5 seconds to get away from a killer every time. That’s really, really reaching. Dead Hard was able to counter being downed at all which actually was a good counter to a perk like Noed because if you’re exposed it won’t matter. Of course, that perk was nerfed to hell.
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This is quite interesting how people immediately start personal attack about how "they don't want to admit they got outplayed" or "just don't want to give survivors good perk", and not even try to make a counter argument.
I'm legit not sure whether those kind of people are trolls or actually serious.
It's not "50 seconds", if you managed to chain one additional tiles because of this perk, it's already better than sprintburst/lithe, and it's not something uncommon.
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The Guards are meant to be outrun. They are there to distract survivors or run them into the Knight. If he could spawn guards far away wherever a survivor was and they moved just as fast as a regular killer he’d be way too OP.
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Anything like that. Its suck that the perk will be one more situational perk but... its better than having a busted perk with almost no requeriments.
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This is assuming that you start every chase at 12 meters. Stealth killers and uses of undetectable can often get you much closer. It’s not taking into account lunges or bloodlust. The best survivor advantage is the third person view but even then you have to keep your eyes on the killer while trying to run in the opposite direction of where you’re going. Looping is not as easy as everyone makes it out to be. There are unsafe pallets, and if you drop them too often you get stuck in dead zones. How many killers can teleport, have ranged attacks, have powers/add-ons for movement speed boosts or hindered for survivors? Even the best survivor players who are great at looping will go down eventually. As someone pointed out before, Made for This is only going to be a solid prevention if you’re going up against someone whose skills surpass your own. When I’m playing killer if I am spending too much time on one survivor I move on to another strategy. There are far more ways to counter the usage of this perk than there are other things in the game so why so many people complain I’ll never understand.
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The point of Knight's Guards isn't to get hits, it's to time waste and to put Survivors into unfavorable situations.
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A better rework would be that it only lasts for a set amount of time. That’s the problem with so many people here: even if a perk is overpowered turning it into something nearly useless is just a horrible idea.
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Except they should have a chance for hit too, and they even changed his kit to make hitting survivors more reliable.
"they won't hit anyway for most so it's fine" is plain false, they are very well designed to injure survivors.
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Bottom line is 3% haste for being injured harms low tier killers, builds that don't involve exhaust, and general looping of the game. If anyone has played killer enough to understand how effective looping and chaining loops/pallets is, they'd see the issue.
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