News just in: Haste is a big deal!
A letter to the community:
Whether you are a Killer or Survivor, nobody should advocate for prolonged Haste in a game like this.
This is discussed to death, but one thing that is being overlooked is the Singularity's perk Machine Learning is just as problematic as Made For This.
I'm a low level player, but anyone with half a brain could see that movement speed is a REALLY big deal for both sides... like Speed in Pokemon, it is THE stat. Both of these perks have the same problem. They grant the EXTREMELY game altering haste effect (plus endurance and undetectable), an effect that should really not be given out lightly, and they are granted with very little effort outside of normal play, veiled under Risk vs. Reward...
Made For This requires you to be injured, but in exchange it makes you significantly harder to catch without any skill required. Just go pallet to pallet, and your killer woth have a really tough time.
Machine Learning requires you to kick a gen and have that gen be completed, but you get a huge 10% speed boost and Undetectable for a Massive 30s. It doesn't even go away after you hit... slug heaven.
Both perks have almost no counterplay or thought to use. Once your opponent has them activated, the best you can do is bite the pillow and say "please be gentle".
Haste should not be given out freely. SB has its tricky little management game, BL requires a height to drop from, Lithe requires a window, and for Killers we have Game Afoot only vs. Obsession, Devour Hope must be built up and can be cleansed, Play With Your Food only builds up vs. Obsession and is lost on hits.
These new perks give it out way too easily, and when they do they last so long that there is basically no counterplay to them.
I say again, regardless of which side you play on, no-one should be encouraging prolonged haste in this game, for either side.
Comments
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Machine learning has the issue of being a contradiction. To activate it you need to kick a gen, then you need to kick another gen and then you need the last gen you kicked to be completed. In other words you want to go around kicking gens but without actually defending them and the perks that benefit you going around and kicking gens are gen defense perks, leaving it with awkward perk synergy. I agree that once activated it's very powerful and could be toned down a bit however to justify that you should change the activation condition, if it worked like you said it does where you just have to kick one gen then yes I'd agree it would need to be toned down (5% haste maybe or a buff similar to overclock's action speed bonus instead).
Made for this is ultimately a win more perk. Against a killer who is beating you in chase such as a nurse, executioner or nemesis it does very little, against an instadown killer it does very little unless you never want to heal which is a large risk even with haste and against a stealth killer who wishes to down you without chasing it does very little. In any situation where you are injured for less than 50 seconds it's worse than a sprintburst/lithe triggering, it also has the endurence however that is a relatively minor effect in the scope of things and the 3% will mostly matter in chase with little impact on map traversal. The perk helps make compliations against killers who aren't as good and does little against the killers you actually need help with, if you wish to predrop every pallet you don't need this perk to do that or make the chase not worth taking for the killer. The biggest issue with the perk as a whole is that it can be stacked with other exhastion perks like dead hard or balanced landing which are harder to trigger but very powerful when they do as then you can get the benefit of made for this and then get the benefit of another powerful exhaustion perk.
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Machine Learning has the same finnicky game as Coup; one use per Gen, except machine learning requires guessing which Gen will be completed next, and failing to do so causes a use to be permanetly lost. Not just that, but it activates immedietly when the Gen is done, which means it can be totally wasted.
Made for this rewards you for getting hit (which last I checked no one liked killers getting noed and being rewarded for losing gens), is always active until you're exhausted (which if you don't use exhaustion perks almost all sources of exhaustion in the game have laughable timers, and if you do use them you still get value until your exhaustion perk kicks in and saves you, which takes longer because of haste), and stacks. Think of it this way. if you have MFT and Hope, hag literally cannot catch you, you're 110%. Huntress, deathslinger and trickster also can't catch you without M2. You have ample time against most 115% killers to not even need to greed or bait windows, and with WoO or map knowledge can easily reach the next pallet long before a killer can catch you. This is before talking about its secondary effect
3% for survivor is worth more than 10% for killer, because survivors can fast vault and drop pallets to make the killer lag behind (and the exception, nurse, gains no benefit from haste in the first place)
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I see what you're saying, but that isn't much of a hindrance. You have quite a few options to help you out in forcing this gen to be completed while applying slowdown elsewhere.
Jolt, Dead Man's Switch, Ruin, these allow you to maintain pressure on other gens, while discouraging survivors from letting go of the gen you want. Is it a catch all improvement for every killer? No, but there are certain killers that really benefit from it, and going forward this massive effect will need to be held in mind for all killers.
Once you have your boost, you're almost guaranteed to down 1 player, and you're not within a bad shout of catching 2, and there is not really anything those survivors can do.
My point is Haste is an extremely potent effect, and unlike other effects, it doesn't take much thought to use effectively.
Prolonged Haste makes bad players far harder to deal with for either side without any skill required... I should know I'm one of them. Haste should be confined to short bursts that give you a chase to make it round a loop at the right time, then go on a cooldown.
Machine Learning may not be as troublesome as Made For This... but it is still troublesome.
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I dont remember who said this on youtube, but a system where your speed is permanetly boosted per gen done (1% per?) like Fire Up with haste might be kinda neat, especially for speed demon builds
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You're making fair points, it does have significant trade offs, but my point is prolonged haste is always going to feel cheap and unfair.
SWFs may be able to play around it in fairness once they figure out its in play... and the game is balanced around that, but as your Joe Schmoe survivor, having your teammate kill you cause they completed a gen and suddenly your killer loses their red light and TR, and just flies at you at speed you can't possibly loop or mind game, it's not going to be pleasant.
I'd rather avoid making this thread about Machine Learning specifically, the crux of my point is you should never grant prolonged haste.
There is Play With Your Food of course, but that requires so much goofing around to build up, and the fact it's lost on each hit means the overall benefits vs. time spent is pretty moot.
Machine Learning gives you the power to slug like crazy for that 30s, and the fact you're undetectable means survivors can't really try and read you around shack, loops, and jungle Jim's, etc.
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It would make the situation worse with 5% boost and 7% of hope now basically a 115% speed killer gonna sweat blood to get u
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Machine Learning requires you to kick 2 gens actually. One to activate it, one to apply it.
So if a gen is 99% and you want Machine Learning on it, you have to leave to kick a different one and then go back to kick the first one (assuming it hasn't been completed yet). And then if it doesn't get finished you can't kick any other gens or the perk will move to that gen. And when it is completed you might not even be in a situation for it to be useful.
It's way to finnicky and situational to be useful. The other haste perks you mentioned have way less requirements and management going into them than Machine Learning does.
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I meant Machine Learning, not Made For This. God no.
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I honestly wishes reworking machine learning simply because it's too much effort for the (unironically big) reward and too unreliable to even make it work, and then if it works it's actually a free win as long as you are in chase.
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Did you just said ruin for a perk that require you to kick a (actually two of) generators?
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Made for this is great against 50/50 killers like executioner and nemesis. With 50/50 i mean you can either drop the pallet or run another round, and you need to guess correctly if the killer uses his power or runs through the pallet.
You also reach pallets faster and can predrop more safely, which helps aginst them.
Made for this is like you said weak against an ambush from stealth killers (but bl and lithe are also weak against that) and insta downs. Also against speed killer like spirit.
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But then it still punishes those speed killers heavily when they make a mistake, additional distance is no joke.
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if we are to compare haste perks on both sides, i really don't know why the comparison is between these two and not pwyf. playing for pwyf stacks is a whole another game, this perk is no different i feel like.
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I don't think at this point anyone can convince me free haste with no balanced way to activate/deactivate it is fair. You can run a killer around the entire map with MTF alone and M1 killers can't do a thing about it.
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Fair but I will also say that a good nemesis shouldn't be relying on 50/50s he has one of the best chase powers in the game for hitting survivors and for executioner I found didn't make much difference but maybe the survivors weren't using the bonus right. As a nemesis I'd much rather mft than sprint burst as I can still infect survivors and gain mutation as normal without wasting time.
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Thats not the point. The perk is always useful. The additional distance is also good against a nurse or every other killer when you reach safety bc of the faster speed.
But the point is that its less useful. Yh if a spirit misses her phase, you can make more distance with the perk. But with sb, lithe, etc you can dodge one phase if you use it correctly. So they are more useful.
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A 3% Speedboost in Dead By Daylight translates to a 20% average increase in speed against the average killer
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I got bored and did the math. More like 25%
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/379653/did-the-math-on-mft#latest
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Ah yeah, oops xD
Brain fart moment
However you got my point very succinctly. This perk is a pain in the ass to get to work, but when it does, it's ridiculously strong in chase to the point a survivor can't really do anything.
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That was a dream of everyone, sadly BHVR never managed to balance the game to not have bloodlust.
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We can get rid of bloodlust as soon as every map including the new one that have yet to be released are fully balanced and gives neither side a advantage. So it'll probably never happen :P
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There is so little killer sided maps and "broken killers" don't care about bloodlust in slightest, I can easily throw away the bloodlust and just play nurse no problem.
At least you should understand the things you hate, I think.
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Oh plz tell me the number of killer-sided maps vs survivor-sided maps in this game, I'll wait. Also if you mean Blight and Nurse as the broken killers I have a new flash for you. MFT isn't going to remotely help you against those killers.
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Based on the last reply I just got from this guy I can tell he really doesn't understand anything about the game. Most likely just a troll or a really new player who just echoing what survivor mains usually say since his account is very new lol XD
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Okay
Then remove bloodlust
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It’s not free. You can argue about whether the price is commiserate with the gain but you can’t ignore that you need to be injured for it to be in play.
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This. What can be frustrating when playing survivor is that how the game is going to go for you is really only up to the killer. If they want to play as aggressively and efficiently as they can, at an absolute minimum they should always get a 1K and most often a 2K. Face camping and tunneling works - they’re also lame and not a particularly fun experience.
Survivors finally get a general purpose, not a lot of setup, speed bump of a perk and people act like it renders killers unable to complete a chase. No. It prolongs chases, sure - that’s the point. It does not give survivors a guaranteed, or even effortless win. You’d think kill rates dropped to zero based on these posts about Made for This.
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I've said it so many times in other discussions, being harmed is not that big of a deal in most cases.
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CoH, medkits, self-care, botany knowledge - these were all nerfed specifically because a survivor being in the harmed state is beneficial to the killer. If being harmed isn’t that dangerous, why nerf healing?
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The overabundance of healing is an entirely different issue. When I say being harmed isn't a problem, it's when you have safe loops/pallets to buy as much time as possible or possibly escape the killer. When healing was prevalent, you had both that and constant resetting. The times being harmed is an issue is when you're facing stealth, in a deadzone or make a mistake. In my experience, deadzones are an issue with MFT but stealth can be either a blessing for the killer or they have enough time to get to a vault/pallet nearby with the haste, and MFT does allow survivor to make minor mistakes at times.
Post edited by ChaosWam on1 -
I've started referring to it as 'the perk costs a health state to activate'.
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The killer's time is extremely limited compared to survivors, as they can only be in one place at once. arbitrarily prolonging chases has a ripple effect that reduces their ability to split pressure to keep up with gen times, which is why there is a constant time management argument during every chase: sunk cost fallacy loses games, which is why its such a fragile thing to tamper with balance wise.
If there were no god pallets or extremely strong loops, the perk would be considerably less of an issue: but as it is, there are already enough forced time wastes in the game. They even had to speed up a lot of animations across the board just to keep up.
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I don't bc I don't play like that. I don't camp or tunnel that often. The only times I tunnel is when someone uses thier base kit BT or OtR as a tool to deny me from going after the unhooker and the only time I camp is when either there just two survivors are left and I have one on the hook or it's the endgame collapse. I don't know about you but I have over 1000 hours in this game most of it on killer. I understand most the killers in the game and know where they are weak and strong. I can also tell you that camping and tunneling doesn't always guarantee you a tie or 3k. Go watch Otz if you want evidence of that because there have been matches where he camps or tunnels and it leads to him losing. It's not the end all be all as so many people make it to be.
I'll also add this, I have seen matches where a killer camps and only get one kill. In fact I was in one not long ago against a bubba who face camp me. He was destroyed by reassure and I was the solo in that match. I don't know if my teammates was a duo or a trio but I can tell you I may had died but those other three escape just because the bubba decided to camp me and tunnel me out of the game.
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The polarisation of MFT is actually staggering. The fact it is so polarising should indicate why a game that is fundamentally a game of tag should avoid prolonged haste.
Survivors maintain 3% isn't a big deal, it costs a health state to gain which is a significant risk, and is needed by survivors to compensate for the loss of healing the recent healing nerfs have imparted, and is an answer to the prevalent issues of camping and tunneling. Survivors look at it as a small buff that helps them succeed a little more often.
Killers maintain that the 3% is a big deal that extends chases in the most simplistic way possible, can only be countered by specific killers or perks, and widens the gulf in the killer roster so those at the bottom that are already struggling are even further behind.
Watch any streamers on DbD and survivors are laughing at how good it is, and Killers are getting very annoyed the moment they touch an m1 killer. Each extra loop an m1 killer has to take, is a loop further behind Nurse, Blight and Spirit they go.
Prolonged haste is a problem element. Every other instance of haste has a condition that you can't always control. It may or may not be something you want to use at that moment, but tough, you have to sacrifice for it. Prolonged haste is something you never want to not trigger, once you have it, its just a straight up benefit.
I'd love to see MFT be a strong survivor perk that helps vs. Camping/tunneling/slugging killers, the endurance on pick up effect has potential for it to be that, however that isn't what it is. Campers won't chase you, and Blight, Nurse, Wesker, are gonna carry on tunneling and slugging and not care about your haste. Meanwhile it's a perk that for the most part extends chase vs. Weak chase killers to simply waste their time trying to down you to buy more time for gens...
Back to the original point, you should never advocate for prolonged haste on either side. It should be a short make or break moment that you should be ACTIVELY seeking your haste boost, not getting it passively by doing what you normally would be doing anyway.
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That’s the game though. I get what you’re saying but I wouldn’t call extending chases arbitrary any more than I would call gen regression or slowdown perks arbitrary. (Unless they literally threw darts at numbers on a board and blanket slowed/sped things down/up).
The events after laying eyes on a survivor shouldn’t be easily replaceable by a random number generator that downs them after a range constrained amount of time. If they spent a perk slot and are injured, this gives them a minor haste bump. It helps the survivor loop, sure, but what else is their objective if you’re chasing them?
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Exactly what I've been trying to say regarding this matter.
Haste is powerful, especially on survivors, against killers already struggling. I just had a match as Singularity and sent myself to RPD to test my own skill with the new nerfs, and despite EMPs being weaker it didn't matter since they all ran MFT and just looped, pre-threw pallets and held W to each loop and there was nothing I could do to close the gap. Even better, I ran Fire Up, Brutal Strength, Bamboozle and Deadlock and still couldn't catch up in time for the gen speeds between EMP's shutting down chase and nerfing myself playing an indoor map.
And if someone says it's a singularity problem, I would have gotten many downs if it wasn't for that 3% getting them to a safe spot perfectly every time. I have the same issues with Sadako, Myers and Knight. It's kinda forcing me to play more Nurse or (forbid the thought) SM for her haste buff.
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The game's balance isn't made for long chases, though. Long chases are supposed to have a cost of pallets as resources, but extending them with the only cost being temporary (being injured) throws the design philosophy off. Exhaustion perks do this as well but are considerably more limited by comparison, and when they weren't we saw how much issue they caused. My point is that these factors all add up and make the game harder and harder to actually balance, because they directly impact the time value imbalance already present in an asymmetrical setup.
This doesnt mean survivors cant have long chases or anything like that, but rather that they shouldn't get them passively just like the devs wanted gen slowdown/regression to not be granted passively. Its a matter of putting their own core design off balance.
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I wish there was a perk that regress generator speed by permanent 25% just from kicking gens, it's the killer's objective.
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A survivor might say they wish they had a speed perk that ups haste by 25% but that doesn’t exist either. There are plenty of perks that regress or slow down gen progress - some requiring the killer to take an action like kicking a gen, some passive via hex, some just passive that trigger events at certain levels of progress. Most aren’t as niche as requiring a fast vault, setting up 3 protection hits or as uncontrollable as sprint bursting every time it’s up.
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That's literally just made for this, which increases chase time by 20~25%.
even if you just look at numbers, the difference between 0.6 and 0.48 is basically as much as 25% or 20%, please at least try to understand what is told to you.
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M1 killers, especially out of date ones, are already having a really rough time staying viable. They are only getting kills on people who mistakes. That's a serious problem. Success should be your skill vs theirs as opposed to just coming down to them making a mistake. A 20-25% increase in speed to get to safety is crippling for m1 killers. They need help. They don't need things getting even worst for them. Such a major increase needs some sort of timed usage. At the VERY least, it shouldn't be allowed to also run exhaustion perks and DEFINITELY should not be stackable with other haste effects. We're at the point where survivors can literally run just as fast as some killers, now. What on earth is happening to DBD?
I'm also not a fan of survivor speed debuffs, either. Some things just need to stay consistent. Faster run speeds means easy unearned escapes. Slower runspeed means easy unearned killer hits. They just need to keep survivor speeds normalized unless it relates to something very temporary with exhaustion.
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