Is any killer player also getting 3 gens per 1st chase done?
Every time no matter who I play if it's not nurse or blight 2 or 3 gens get done by the time I down and hook the first or second survivor... I hate having to tunnel and I try my best to avoid it but there's little else I can do at that point. I mean yea I get good matches every once in a while but even then they get gens done before I even get there to try and defend it. I'm not saying gen speeds are a problem but something's going on with it right now and it's really stressful to play killer atm, at least for me
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It’s not just you. The overall speed of matches has increased. I feel it when I play killer and I see it myself when I play survivor. I’m noticing it with streamers I like who have basically become survivor mains in recent weeks.
I think the big issue now is it feels like there’s a lot of games where you yourself or the killer your facing don’t necessarily play badly but you just can’t keep up with the gens. Yes, sometimes we all have bad games but I’m noticing now that one, definitely two mistakes on the killer side are punished so heavily that it’s basically a guaranteed loss unless you employ the tactics people hate. And even if you don’t make mistakes it’s still a challenge keeping up with gens.
It really feels like there is no space right now for the average player who wants a decent game with a good number of hooks and chases and will happily take a 2K draw.
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There are many patterns that are not your fault. If the terrain you follow in your first chase is too strong for Survivors generation, you will be penalized for whatever you do at that point.
Of course, there are also Maps that are punished at the start of the match.
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that’s usually just the structure of most matches, the first chase in a match is usually the deciding factor of how matches go.
it’s not really your fault, sometimes the survivors get lucky with gen spawns and sometimes the maps have ridiculous tile rng.
just always expect 2 gens to pop within the first 3 mins, if not, the survivor team is probably gen allergic.
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If survivors' do enough gens before getting caught they have a good chance of winning, if they don't do enough they'll probably lose.
So it's kind of a vicious circle, survivors do gens as quickly as possible because they think they'll get tunneled out once they're caught, while killers tunnel out because they think they won't be able to keep up with gens if they don't.
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Exactly this. Survivors are focusing on gens more now, thanks to all of tunnellers. If you don't rush gens, most likely you will lose. But if you finish gens as fast as possible, you can help your teammate who is getting camp & tunnel.
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Killers are tunneling NOW because gens go by way to quickly to get any good chases in
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Gen speed always seems faster if there is event. Survivors just try to make them as fast as possible. Getting even the first down quickly does not always help survivors can still easily recover and still one gen will at least pop.
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And survivors are gen rushing NOW because most killers tunnel and being in chase isn't worth it. As I said, it's literally the chicken and the egg (and it'll stay that way until survivors are somehow made stronger in chase or tunneling is somehow not the best killer strategy anymore)
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It's just the viscous cycle...
We and BHVR need to find a way to break it
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Survivors are strong enough in chase already and you know that if you've seen the comp teams. I think it's more to do with possible gen efficiency being too high. But I also would like for tunneling to be discuraged by some sort of mechanic but NOT just that without a survivor nerf first
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Most survivors aren’t strong in chase. And a killer doesn’t even have to be comp to win a match. They can be mediocre and win by tunneling/camping alone, which is why those are common strategies.
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Right... because killers absolutely go against comp teams regularly... we should also probably nerf every killer that has players getting impressive win streak with... surely it would all be fine...
The only thing that changed is how survivors play. Killers tunneling on top of the healing changes means being in chase isn't worth it and bringing medkits isn't worth it so survivors have to slam the gens if they want to win and they're more likely to bring toolboxes to do so.
The only things that need a nerf on the survivor side are the toolboxes, gen speed and gen perks are fine. It's just that a lot more survivors (me included) have started using them recently because there's not many perks worth running, and if we don't get gens done quickly we lose. If you nerf gen speed or gen perks, survivors are just going to focus even more on the generators assuming doing so still allows them to keep up with the killer.
"gen efficiency being too high" literally just means "survivors are playing well" btw, and it's quite silly to complain about it.
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I agree with the first part but I fail to see how making survivors stronger in chase would help with this problem. Killers would only double down and tunnel, camp and slug even more because chases are too big of a risk. Also, a survivor that is not in chase will not run up to the killer to get chased, which means the stronger one survivor is in chase and the longer that chase lasts the more free time the others get to do gens.
Gen rushing will not disappear just because tunneling, camping and slugging get nerfed and vice versa. Also, an asymmetrical game cannot work when the one side with fewer team mates isn't massively favored in some way. In DBD the killer is massively favored in chase (arguably not enough when you consider they had to add bloodlust to give killers a chance of ending chases). You will go down eventually. The only question is: "How long will it take?". If you add realistic possibilities for survivors to escape a chase that makes the killer basically just a tool for their entertainment with no real impact on the game.
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In almost every game 2 gens pop befores i down 1 survivor. Sometimes 3 after hook.
And yeah its like, mate what do i do now?
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You....you realize that's how game balancing actually works right? You're supposed to balance around top end play, not low end play.
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For team games or 1v1 sure, but not for a game like this when it's 1v4 that's how the Death Garden game died. Trying to balance this game around the higher tier players which only makes up just a small minority of players can easily destroy balance for the lower tier players which are the vast majority. If balance is ruined for the vast majority then players are gonna quit and you'll have a dead game very quickly.
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You're right actually, I didn't mean "make them stronger in chase" literally, it was more of a "make chases worth it" sentiment but I understand it's not making much sense haha. What I was trying to say is that because of more or less recent changes chases are shorter, so being injured is more of threat but healing has been nerfed as well, in consequence survivors die more quickly (which is obviously made worse when the killer tunnels). Because survivors feel like they die more quickly they do try to do their objective more quickly (which in turns makes the killer do the same), even in solo q I see people doing dull totems, chests and self-healing a lot less than before, everyone is just doing gens now.
I absolutely agree that longer chases = more tunneling, just like the gen speed nerf ended up making a lot more survivor use gen perks. And I also agree nerfing one or the other wouldn't change the other side's behavior, we'd need some kind of meta shake up or something to switch up things again I think.
In all honesty I stopped playing for a while after the meta shake up because games became too long for my liking, so I really don't mind the shorter games lmao, but I don't think it's ideal that about a third of the time we already know how the game is gonna play out depending on the first 2 minutes of the game.
Right... because there's absolutely no one between the absolute beginners and the thirty people who play "comp DBD" and we should totally balance a game around people who clearly don't reflect the skill of 99% of the playerbase and add so many rules and restrictions you could argue their games don't reflect the balance of the game at all simply because that's not how people play the game.
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Agreed again. I was a bit confused by your sentiment but I'm affraid I don't quite understand how "making chases worth it" would look like. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how that might be achievable because it doesn't sound like a bad idea.
That last point is something that I've experienced too. Mostly you go into a match and depending on how well the first 2 minutes of the game go you already have a pretty good idea of who is going to win. Of course, come backs are always possible but they are unlikely. Considering that the devs also wanted to do more about 3-genning (which is a good thing btw) I see this only getting worse however.
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You balance around the top end of play because that shows what players are capable of doing, and if that isn't balanced, the game never will be. It's literally one of the easiest things to understand. The fact that you're claiming it's a bad way to balance is mind boggling. It doesn't matter if that's "not how most people play" it matters that those things CAN BE DONE. You don't balance around who plays at what level, games need to be balanced around what can and can not be done, and how those things can be done. It's literally that simple.
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No, not for 1v1 games. Jesus. That's literally how games need to be balanced. If you balance around making bad players feel the game is fair those players never have a reason to improve and the good players that are playing their role will absolutely destroy anyone they go against. It's mind boggling people can't understand this.
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Just cause 3 gen pops doesn't mean your game is doomed. If survivors do the first gen they spawn close to chances are they completed the 3 closest gens at the edge of the map. So if you're perceptive and notice you can always contest certain gens instead of commiting to chases and some killers (not just Blight and Nurse) don't have any trouble doing that. With Blight and Nurse it's just easier to contest gens that are in the edges, but if the survivors completed the wrong gens you might be able to salvage that.
As a survivor I've also had games where survivors (or even myself) go down before even a gen is completed and it's not that rare.
Survivors can't come back from a game where their teammate dies at 5 gens like 99% of the time. But killers can come back from getting their first hook at 2-3 gens because unless the looper is godly he probably used up a lot of resources if he took you through the whole map so subsequent chases will be much easier.
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Don't ever say that in the DBD community. For some reason this game magically is the only multiplayer game ever made where we should only balance around average level players. But also still need to nerf nurse somehow.
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Mathematically though? You are doomed. Because at that point, survivors can just predrop every single pallet, and you are guaranteed to lose. Survivors losing the game at that point, is just because they start trolling, or playing badly because they get confident. The game basically hinges on:
- Do the survivors finish 3 gens before/during your first hook, if so, you lose.
- Do you down the first survivor and hook them before the first gen pops, if so, you probably win, because you can proxy camp it out.
This isn't a healthy state for the game, in either case. They need to do something to rebalance the game and even it out, such that the game isn't decided in basically the first 60 seconds. It isn't fun for anyone involved.
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Honestly I'm not quite sure haha I think it'd just mean a chase would be worth the risk, either through some kind of reward (more BPs or some kind of in-game bonus), or simply to ba able to gain enough time for your team, but it'd be difficult to achieve this one without going back to a meta similar to the one prior the shake up, which people were happy to see leave, where survivors can be too strong.
I think it's just that if being in chase wasn't a bad thing then survivors would back off their objectives, like they did before the healing nerf because chases weren't as punishing. The problem is that making chases less punishing would obviously not be any good for killers, so finding balance is difficult tbh.
I agree about the 3gen thing, I can't imagine it will help the situation but maybe it'll make things bad enough that we'll get a toolboxes rework. Honestly, I think we'll just slowly circle back to something similar to the old meta, considering BHVR already started reverting POP nerf and the like.
I'm not saying the game shouldn't be balanced for the top players, I'm saying comp games specifically aren't representative of the meta and balance because of the many rules & restrictions that make their games very different than they would be if those same players played a regular game, and that saying we should nerf survivors because comp gamers are good in chase is silly.
Post edited by Annso_x on0 -
Actually no, you balance around all levels of play, with the bulk of it being around the most populated player demographic (in this game, solo queue.)
Reason being that the top end of any game will be completely different, you should only address absue cases that threaten the competitive integrity of comp dbd. Otherwise, all other balance changes should be focused on solo-queue and average killer experience.
A good example of a game that does this successfully is League of Legends, one of the biggest games in the world. They've made plenty of changes that had no relevance in professional play, but specifically because it was making lower-end play worse.
Perfect Balance is an outdated ideal that devs need to let go of, you sacrifice too much and water the game down too much to try and achieve something impossible.
If I can log on at any given day and win most of my killer/survivor games, then the game is in a good state balance wise. And currently I'd say it is.
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Same, then when I play survivor someone is dead by 1st gen done. Im in MMR hell
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People talking about balancing around top level play like this is a competitive shooter. You can't balance in the same way because both sides can't bring the same things. In most games if someone is using something busted then you can do the same thing yourself. There's nothing an ordinary survivor team can do to counter an alchemist ring blight with four slowdowns. They can't bring their own blight or nurse to even things out.
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What mathematically? You have no math in your post.
Survivors who do the 3 closest gens at the edge of the map are not gonna predrop. I've still lost games where we've done 3 gens on first chase, it's pretty common for someone to throw or for gens to become harder to complete.
I've played games where a person cleansed 2-3 times in the span of a minute vs Plague. He cleansed before saving an infected teammate, then got infected and he cleansed again. And then I've had games with randoms who somehow we're sharing a brain and they know to body guard etc. Although those ofc are rare. Even I have wildly different skill expression in my games. I could fall in 15 seconds or take over a minute or more to go down.
What is the average experience? Are killers really having all that trouble getting 3-4k on average? Because last time the stats were released it showed they were doing quite well, even the weaker ones.
Is your argument taking into consideration only SWF? Only solo's who are all decent to good? Because everyone who plays solo survivor and has posted here talks about getting matched with newbies.
I even have games vs killers who are pretty decent and they somehow get matched with people who might not have played a lot. What's going on there?
The game usually slows down after the first 3 gens more often than not. Do you even play solo survivor?
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I assumed this is just the norm.
I guess you can just use Corrupt Intervention and/or Lethal Pursuer to help with early game pressure but Idk.
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2 gens are typical if not 3. As above was already said gen speed is crazy these days and a lot of survivors keep focusing on them. Resilience is the new Prove Thyself. You don't heal only after a gen is done with a coop partner.
I take my terrormisu to matches with my Clown and focus on 0K to ensure everybody escapes and has fun. Half the matches are winnable (3-4K) while the other half I could only have 1K if tried hard. I always use the same build with Blood Favor and Bamboozle included to ensure fast knockdowns.
It really doesn't matter. I feel the position of the survivors and gens and - most of all - map selection will be the deciding factor in the outcome.
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You should look at my post history. But sure, here is the math i post all the time around here:
Some data:
Survivor movement speed: 4.0 m/s
Survivor post hit movement speed duration: 1.8 seconds
Survivor post hit movement speed: 6.0 m/s
Killer movement speed: 4.6 m/s
Killer movement speed while carrying survivor: 3.68 m/s
Killer Terror Radius: 32 meters
Killer hit cooldown: 2.7 seconds
Killer pick up speed: 3 seconds
Killer hook speed: 1.5 seconds
Generator repair speeds: 90 seconds
Average distance to hook: 12 meters
Average human response time: 273 ms (https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime)
Average map size: 9850 square meters (~99.25x99.25 meters for a square)
So, let's assume killers and survivors all spawn at opposite ends of the map. The survivors spend the first 20 seconds looking for a generator and the killer spends the first 20 seconds running to the opposite end of the map. With a killer having a 32 meter terror radius, and taking into account movement speeds and human reaction time. if we take the human reaction time and 6x it to account for figuring out the direction the killer is coming from and making sure you can run the opposite direction, the survivor will spot the killer in 1638 ms. To make math simpler let's round it up to 2 second. during this time the killer gets 9.2 meters closer. So now the killer is 22.8 meters away. During this time the survivor runs in the exact opposite direction of the killer.
Remember, no powers, no pallets, no windows, just a straight line. In order for the killer to catch up to the 5 meters (lunge is 6 meters but taking into account human reactions and lag and spinning and such, we say 5) required for lunge distance the killer needs to move 17.8 meters to close the gap. The difference in movement speed between them is .6, this means the killer closes the 17.8 meter gap in 29.66 seconds. The killer then lands a hit.
The survivor then runs in a straight line and the killer is unable to move much for 2.7 seconds. During 1.8 of those seconds the survivor is moving at 6 m/s and for 4 m/s for .9 seconds. This means the survivor gets 14.4 meters way. The killer now has to close a gap of 9 meters for a lunge. It takes the killer 15 seconds to catch up to the survivor and land another hit.
The killer now picks the survivor up taking 5.7 seconds (3 seconds for picking up, and 2.7 seconds for attack cooldown), and they walk to the nearest hook about 12 meters away. This takes 3.25 seconds, the hooking action takes 1.5 seconds.
The time to find this survivor, hit them once, catch up, hit them again, pick them up walk to a hook and hook them took: 29.66 + 15 + 5.7 + 3.25 + 1.5 = 55.11 seconds. This would mean the killer would likely lose 2 gens in the first chase. (just barely reaching the 3rd survivor before it finishes).
Now, if you do this during the first chase, you lose 2-3 gens in the first chase. During the second chase, you are gonna lose .75 gens, and during the 3rd chase, you will lose another .75 gens, and during the 4th, the last gen will finish up. 4 chases. Now the part you might realize is, i am not factoring in killer power sure, but i'm also not factoring in pallets, windows, looping, perks. anything. This is strictly holding shift + w. You can at minimum delay a killer's time by 55 seconds.
Now sure, you can factor in killer power, but now lets factor in pallets. Unless the killer is a blight or a nurse, typically you can just predrop a god pallet. Every predropped god pallet will result in the killer being forced to break it, and again, extending the chase by, at minimum, 15 seconds. So in this world, all the survivor needs to do, is predrop a pallet or 2 that the killer is forced to break, and the killer has just lost 3 gens in the first chase.
Now i'm sure the next thing you will say is, But not every survivor is "efficient" like this, sometimes people are doing challenges, or some other thing. Sure, when you look at the "AVERAGE" player. But then i ask a simple question. Should this game be balanced around AVERAGE players, or top level players? Because if you say the game should be balanced around AVERAGE players, then there is a simple data point that i'm sure you are ignoring.
The devs balance this game around a 60% kill rate. Now, you might say "that is unfair, it should be 50%" whatever, that's fine, but you need to take that up with the devs. It is their stated goal, to shoot for a 60% kill rate. So now, if we say the game should be balanced around the AVERAGE player, then do you see the problem here? By FAR the NURSE is the WORST killer in the game, a full 8% lower than the stated goal. Sounds like she needs MASSIVE buffs. Also, it looks like Sadako is OP at 63%, so we should be nerfing her a bit as well. Blight probably needs some buffs as well. And, oh look, pig is slightly overtuned a bit, maybe should nerf an addon or 2 to bring her more in line with more BALANCED killers, like myers?
Hopefully you see the point here, and that is that balancing around AVERAGE players is obviously ridiculous. Because if you do, you have to face some hard truths about the game, which is that nurse needs massive buffs then.
Next i'm sure you are going to jump to the logic of: "Well yeah but most people aren't bringing all this OP stuff like hyperfocus, commodius toolboxes, BNPs etc. Nor are nurses brining all of these god kits in the game and 4king everyone instantly. And you know what, i actually agree with you here. You won't encounter these things that often. But that doesn't mean that they aren't overpowered, or that they are fine.
This community listens to otzdarva quite a bit, And rightfully so. So here is a clip of him discussing this exact issue. Just because something is rare, doesn't mean its fine.
And herein lies the massive problem with this game. If you watch any high level game, you'll see that matches are decided in pretty much the first 30-45 seconds. Additionally, at a super high level, this game is massively imbalanced. Both sides can bring stupid things, and RNG can completely destroy a match just depending on what stupid loops and structures can spawn. Again, for both sides. You can have one map that spawns 6 pallets and multiple dead zones, and another on the same map that gets 2x as many pallets, and multiple jungle gyms spawning right next to shack.
I think, for the sake of EVERYONE (both sides) that some fundamental changes need to be done to the game:
- Camping should be completely impossible from a gameplay perspective, it just isn't fun to get camped.
- Tunneling should be completely impossible from a gameplay perspective.
- "gen rushing" needs to be looked at, survivors need to be given a secondary objective that they are FORCED to do, or be punished by.
- A pass needs to be made on like 70% of the killers being totally useless because if you aren't blight/spirit/nurse forget about any chance of winning against a good team.
- The differences between SWF and solo need to be seriously looked at. I counted how many perks survivors have that just give information about what their teammates are doing. And being in a SWF group on discord gives your whole team 40+ perks for free, on top of the 16 they already get. On top of that, they get tons of "perks" that aren't actually "perks" in the way they can coordinate and communicate.
- The speed at which the game is decided and the early game need to be evened out. The early game is basically non-existent at a high level and lasts for about 45 seconds. I think we should be shooting for a match of DBD to last around 8-10 minutes or so. Win or lose for both sides, 8-10 minutes is a solid match that is long enough to feel like you did something, but short enough to not feel too long. The early game needs to be extended, and the late middlegame (3 genning) needs to be shortend). Basically, the game should "feel" the same length at every phase.
Lastly, the game should be balanced around the best players, not the average players. While taking into account the average players and their experience so that it is at least "fun". Here is a video explaining this very thing:
I timestamped it to the relevant point that talks about the BASE Jumper item in TF2 and i think it exemplifies exactly the kind of thing i'm talking about. You can nerf the killer shack for example, and you won't hurt the average survivor player, because the average survivor isn't using killer shack to any decent level, they are busy predropping it, and getting hit through it anyway, wasting the pallet and still getting hit, then wasting their sprint burst and going down 4 seconds later. You aren't going to hurt these players who go down in 10 seconds, because they aren't using these structures to their full potential to begin with.
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Look at it this way, at game start survivors typically have 1 objective they can work on that has any effect on their odds of escaping or how they’ll do in the match - generators. If you don’t give them anything else to do, that’s all they’re going to do. That means spreading the love around.
- Wound rather than hook at the beginning of the match. They may or may not spend time healing but they definitely won’t if none are injured.
- Break chase long enough to chase survivors off gens if you’re passing by rather than remaining focused on the initial survivor.
- Prioritize patrolling generators over chasing 1 survivor for an extended period of time.
In my recent matches, I’ve noticed 2 gens usually go quickly at the start but by that point I’ve built up enough pressure that the last 3 don’t pop nearly as fast, if at all. Pressure is like a snowball rolling down a hill - the circumstances are on the survivor’s side in the beginning of the match but the more you do as killer, the more that shifts to you.
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yeah, I miss when my pressure and skill could stop gens from going off... I miss ruin...
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I want to see the devs stream themselves playing at the high mmr cap against the public
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This kinda feels like a chicken and egg situation.
Only solution i see is to stop tunneling in the hope that survivors gen rush. But then killers get a "gg ez, l2p nuub killa" in the endgame chat.
So survivors should stop rushing gens. But then they get tunneled and the endgame chat is: "gg ez ez ez ez nub survs"
Which leads the devs to change some game mechanics to make both things harder, but that leads to "devs are XXX sided!11!!!" comments on twitter and the forum. Because our community is simply toxic af.
Conclusion: both sides should try to be better persons and react with kindness to our fellow killers and survivors. If toxic stuff happens, just send a "gg luv you" or "have a wonderful day" or something wholesome in the hope that more people start doing that.
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Yes, they honestly need to make corrupt intervention basekit for killers.
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Try survivor, I've had several games today where people were deathhook, while only repairing 2 or 3 generators...
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I notice on here and other threads people keep using the word punished, I don't think that's the proper word. This game isn't punishing us.
In order to be punished, one has to - inflict a penalty or sanction on (someone) as retribution for an offense, especially a transgression of a legal or moral code.
That's not what's happening here. On either side.
You mess up on your own accord and deal with the results. It's not like no matter what you do the game is inflicting a penalty on you for it. We do that to ourselves.
My niece who plays who is quite young and (her mom says she can play, so) has no problem winning games as Sadako. Generators can go off quickly in the beginning but then you have to put pressure and make smart moves, then it's easy 4K. That's what I see her doing anyway, but what do I know.
I'm not saying folks are wrong, it's just such an odd way to word it. You mess up and generators get finished, survivors don't have much else to do anymore. I've had games where first chase lasts seconds and then it's a snowball effect.
Over commit to first chase and yeah, again with all the healing nerfs people demanded, no one really brings med kits or heals, they bring tool boxes instead. I've said it other threads and I'll say it again, the med kits have become homogenized and boring, toolboxes and their add ons are still, luckily, unique.
Becareful what you wish for, now, survivors are no longer afraid to do generators injured and they bring perks and items to do them faster so they don't die. They're learning to kite better and adapt. Before the patch it was medkits galore and they'd be afraid to even look at one injured. Now when we play against a killer who hit and runs, we don't bother to heal, but instead focus on our only task, generators.
The Gen regression perks are also nothing to scoff at. The killers I see bringing them still get good value out of them.
If you get people who can't kite then it gets easy to win. I play almost all day lately and notice this. My niece plays killer all day as well, so I see what goes on from her end.
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