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Tunneling is tiring and needs to be adressed
It has always been an issue for 7 years but today it is rampant. In almost every trial the killer is tunneling right at the start, why don't you adress it ? How long will we have to wait this time ?
Tunneling should be heavily punished.
You have asked to the streamers, in the streamers tournament, to not camp and not tunnel to give a good advertisement of the game so why do you let those behavior being rampant in the game and doing nothing about it ?
Comments
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Well, it sucks when killer goes for tunnel at 5 gens left. Some survivors deserve it tho.
But tunneling at 2 gens left is understandable imo.
Killer simple needs to get someone out before 1 gen is left, if they want to win.
Alternative is 3-gen, which is going to get nerfed tho.
There used to be less tunneling, but several perk nerfs made it simply best strategy. There is absolutely not reason to focus different survivors, it's way better to slug them and focus single survivor.
Least tunneling was during BBQ, Pop, Ruin meta imo.
BBQ made you focus different survivors, pop and ruin gave you quite lot of extra time and you also had to leave hooked survivor for them to be effective.
DS was also a thing and everyone respected it.
But all those were nerfed.
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How would you punished tunneling?
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I guess killers just shouldn't do damage at all now....
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What do you expect us to do? bHVR puts 5 times the pressure on Killers than Survivors and puts everything EVERYTHING in our way that the only way we can ever kill a Survivor is if they make a mistake. Playing Killer the normal way does not work, cause Survivors have a trillion pallets to work with.
And then there is this event and Survivors can summon pallets out of their butts, Oh but If I camp and tunnel then I am Satan.
Sure thing, what ever you want.
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We’d all like tunneling and camping to not be a thing but the fact of the matter is that with how bad the games current balance is they’re required mechanics if you want to win against equally good survivors. The game needs to be appropriately balanced to make 12 hook games viable before we can address camping and tunneling. I get it, it’s annoying when I play survivor and it happens to me, but I also understand that it’s not their fault, they’re required to if they want a chance at beating us. That just how bad the balance is. They aren’t winning going for a 12 hook game unless we’re just playing really, really bad. This is what happens when you try to balance the game around 1v1 in a 1v4 game.
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Then tell BHVR to do something about Gen speeds. When 3 gens are done in a minute and a half because people brought toolboxes yeah, I'm gonna have to tunnel. Gen speeds are insanely fast and the Pop buff doesn't matter since you have to get a hook and have a time limit to use it. Tunneling is required if you want to win in 9/10 games because gens are so fast. Also survivor perks are overall way stronger than killer perks, and especially now that MFT + Adren + Hope + Resil is the new meta you HAVE to tunnel people out before the end game or you actually just cannot catch people.
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Funny is Otz had experiment where he tried to not tunnel.
One of rules was not to hook survivor twice in a row.
Survivors were saying he is tunneling anyway :D
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Adressing tunneling does not mean nerfing killers, it means balancing the whole game. I completely know how is it to play killer, i'm a 50/50 players.
At this point, with the current state of the game, why killer players are still playing ? Trials that are fun (balanced) represent maybe 10% of the trials you get. They are either too easy either impossible to deal with.
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What it does mean is while bHVR figures out how to address tunneling we Killers have to stomach being underpowered and that is a bad way of doing it. There is no changing that fact.
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You already stomach to be underpowered.
Removing tunneling needs a global balance overall of maps, perks etc...
Atm the game is completely broken.
Even survivors items are busted - they all bring items with insta heal, BNP, full charges add ons etc... killers cannot keep up atm.
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Tunneling and camping at this point have become a mechanic for killers that get outplayed but still want a win and know it can pay off. It is this game's dirty backdoor.
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Simple. Fix tunneling, then, from that, buff killers. It's useless to buff killers as long as tunneling isn't looked at.
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tunneling isn't an illegal move yet tho
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I don't know if he meant punished in terms of gameplay, but personally just a 5 seconds baseline DS would be a step in the right direction (or at the very least 3s baseline and the perk makes it 5s and usable on both stages)
A mechanic to buff remaining survivors if they have no hook stage but a survivor is dead would be great too. Like anyone with 0 hook stage would have a HUGE generator repair speed.
Of course, if following such changes, killer need buffs, buff them. I'd take over powered killers ANY DAY against tunneling.
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There is nothing wrong with tunneling. Again, just because you don;t like it and it makes the game harder for you doesn't mean it's not allowed. Stop being a baby about it.
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Nobody said it was "illegal". Yeah right now it's legal, that's the problem.
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bHVR wont make it illigal.
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There was time of stacking slowdown perks instead of tunneling. Almost all gen regression perks got nerfed, so tunneling was back on menu.
You had NOED as plan B, so you didn't worry about end game. Well, NOED was nerfed. So back at tunneling.
Then was time of 3-gen instead of tunneling. Perks got nerfed and they want to nerf it more. So we are back at tunneling.
If you "fix" tunneling, it will get replaced by slugging, then survivors start to cry even more for basekit unbreakable.
Like how exactly do you want killers to win?
For most killers, it is not realistic to go for 12 hook every game. I do it sometimes, when I know I can get away with it, but if survivors play save and you manage to get first hook on 3 gens left, you don't have time for hooking everyone.
Only viable strategy other than tunneling is hit&run, but you have only few killers capable of doing that effectively.
Alternative is to just play top 3 killer every game.
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The biggest problem right now is that the game is getting easier and easier for survivors. Instead of survivors practicing and getting better, BHVR uses some silly 50/50 ratio of Killer to Survivor wins to rate whether the game is "fair" or not, and there is a race to the bottom for survivors. They make the game easier for survivors, and then they actually think they're getting better. When really they're getting 5% speed bursts, faster gens, infinite loops, and like 10 hook states with all the easy mode perks. And my favorite part is they think they are getting better at the game.
Tunneling is here to stay - just use the infinite loops and other easy mode items they give you in the game and you'll be fine.
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They'll have to fix it at some point. It is the nr. 1 frustration of a lot of players and driving away new ones.
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Slugging isn't really effective as it requires you to win 4 chases in a row. (And they still have the unbreakable meta in store, even if they completely stopped talking about it).
You exactly proved my point, tunneling is the one thing that prevents balance from happening in dbd. It's basically exactlmy as if killers, when spawning, had a button asking if they want all 4 survivors to die immediately with no effort needed from their part.
I talk from a survivor perspective but I play 50/50, it's frustrating thatr we can not have nice perks just because tunneling allows a guaranteed 4k anyway. I also feel punished as killer because since I don't tunnel, I'm not allowed to have strong perks.
I don't get the "if you fix that, there are other problems that will need to be fixed, therefore, let's not adress anything ever". Yeah, if we fix both facecamping and tunneling, there will be sluggers. Maybe. But all killers? I don't think so. Currently, during the event, I estimate approximately 1/20 killers not to be hard tunneling or facecamping (with a facecamp killer).
Is it too hard to ask to just play dead by daylight? Using the actual game mechanics?
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Killers will have trash perks and suirvivors will keep getting more options as long as tunneling isn't adressed.
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I've noticed a trend with topics like this. 99% don't talk about balancing or making things better for both Survivors and Killers; they talk about punishment, like the Killer player has just committed a war crime and must face trial.
What people need to realise is that the choices a Killer can make, the options available to them, is an ever-decreasing thing. Everything Survivor players want to stop covers basic game-play mechanics; anti-camping is telling Killer where they can and can't stand and when, anti-tunnelling is telling them who they can and can't chase or who they're allowed to hook and when, anti-slugging is demanding someone pick up after downing even if it's the least sensible choice. It's creating a system where the choice is already made for the Killer and all their interaction involves is adhering to that choice with the best of their abilities.
Constraining the actions of Killers to the point where they're not walking on egg shells, they're walking on landmines, isn't going to fix the game. At this point, rather than advocating Killers have basic game mechanics limited or removed, Survivor mains should just start campaigning for Killer bots and be done with it. You can't program human players to enjoy playing the game in the stop-start-can-can't sort of way Survivors demand, and as they demand more and more and Killer choices become less of a choice and more conforming to choices made for them, adding bots is the only logical choice.
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You misunderstood.
Main point is everything else was nerfed, so not really surprising there is lot of tunneling.
About slugging, if you played during DS meta, if you wanted to tunnel one guy, you just slugged him between hooks to avoid DS, or just took it if you had killer for it.
As long there is no reason to hook different survivors, or other strategy is not better/equal. You are going to have killers tunneling. Not really difficult concept.
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How do you punish tunnelling without also punishing killers who legit accidentally encounter the same survivor twice?
No one has been able to figure this out yet. Without this caveat, any anti-tunnelling mechanic becomes highly weaponised by unhooked survivors.
Survivors already bodyblock when they have unhook endurance, to force the killer to hit them. They consider it a free health state, but it's not, it's a license to tunnel. Bodyblock after unhook = "tunnel me"
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Great lets punish the killer for the ability to choose his target, sounds reasonable. How?
Can we punish survivors for not spreading gen progress on all 7 gens equally? like they all [Insert ridiculously unbalanced punishment] if 1 gen is like 15% higher than the average of all gen progress. Dont worry, because its survivor they get a line on the progress bar to show the average %.
If the killer gotta be restricted in his ability to choose their target, so should survs.
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There’s literally no way to address it other than doing something completely radical like making the survivors all share hook progress.
you already get a time window for a free shield and sprint burst when rescued from a hook.
there are already enough pallets and safe loops in a match to run the killer through an entire game’s worth of gen progression.
you already get 3 chances to hide/run.
like… literally the only thing they could do is make it irrelevant who gets hooked so that every survivor loses at the same time. Because in most cases it’s a skill issue or a specific loadout/playstyle that gets players tunneled out of a game.
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there is no way to counter tunneling other than basekit bt after that it's up to you to get better at looping to punish that tactic and use perks like otr/ds/dh other than that realistically there's nothing to be done about it.
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There is a perk idea I like for anti-tunnelling that I came up with:
- Gain a token each time you lose a hook state. Lose a token each time another survivor is hooked or killed. This perk activates when you are on death hook, for each token, gain 1/2/3% haste and reduce cries of pain by 50% for 120 seconds. This perk deactivates once the exit gates are powered.
This only activates when you've been hooked, either twice in a row or at half strength just after you're second hook. It is countered by hooking another survivor, and it deactivates in the endgame so it can't stack with Hope. It can't be weaponised because it doesn't grant any kind of immunity or bonus health state or otherwise prevent the killer from taking an action, and the killer can discern you're moving faster and choose to go for someone else. It is not indefinite, so if the killer tries and fails to hook other survivors for two minutes, they can eventually come back to you. But it can also be fairly countered if the killer is running haste perks, a perk for perk.
Post edited by Seraphor on0 -
You know this won't happen that way though.
1) Survivors cry about tunneling
2) BHVR uses this non-sensical 50/50 win ratio to decide if the game is "fair" or not.
3) When it's 60/40 for killers winning the knee jerk and completely incorrect reaction is "oh, it's too hard for survivors"
4) More nonsense is added to the game to address the ratio. Now not only are there dozens of pallets, endless windows, tons of loops with no good recourse - they'll add more of these. AND they'll add the suggested anti-tunneling nonsense.
5) Now the game goes back closer to 50/50. The game gets much easier for players as killers now have to remember, which one of those injured guys did I hook last?
6) Survivors will get lazy and t-bag all over the place because it went from easy mode now with all the survivor "no penalty for mistakes" ways to escape to super easy mode where it's still all that plus now you dont remember who to chase for the tunnel penalty.
7) Survivor skill atrophies even further and many less than mediocre survivors think they are good because the game is easier.
8) Enough top killers get better, and the game is dominated by Top Killers and bad survivors who win because the game is easy.
It's not about 50/50, its about whats fair. If 6 times around a loop before the undependable Bloodlust kicks in, so is tunneling to even the score.
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40% escape chance is waaay fairer than 50%.
Math is funny. 40% escape chance results in a ~47.52% chance for the killer win condition (3k +4k chances) to occur.
At 50% its about 31%....
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Ok, I wasn't really best at math.
Would you mind to explain how this work?
This doesn't make sense to me.
Also this would work only if you have equal numbers per each option, but we know 1K, 2k results are more likely than 0k, no?
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Slippery slope fallacy, often used by homophobes, for exemple, to say how homosexual marriage will lead to an end of the world scenario (spoilers, it didn't) (it's just an exemple btw, not saying anyone here is one).
"If behavior fixes this problem, it will create tons of other problems". We've had similiar reactions with every big changes. Nothing happenned in the end.
Also experience proved that behavior eventually listens to its community. It just tends to sometimes take 5-7 business years. A chunk of the playerbase will leave the game if tunneling isn't adressed. If you want to tunnel, fine, but you're gonna have to tunnel bots.
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A "fair" scenario is 50% of a 3 escape happening, since the community settled on 3k as a win condition.
However, pursuing a 50% is a very bad method of balancing. Cause you end up buffing random things if you have no idea what's unbalanced. Buffing a mechanic that ios already doing well doesn't fix problems.
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This doesn't explain how he got 47,52% chance for 3/4k if average escape rate is 40%.
I don't care about reasoning. I want to know how he got that number.
I have never liked balancing purely based on statistics. It just doesn't reflect reality if you ignore reasons behind it. It's nice tool, but definitely not primary aspect.
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I cant remember the names of the formulas and dont even know the englush names but its simple. Getting the escape chances os like calculating 4 "cointosses" or an event with 2 outcomes:
escape chance E + chance to be killed K = 1
E+K = 1 for 1 survivor.
(E+K)^4 = 1 for 4 survivors.
Solving this with the 4th 'binomische formel" ( german name, sue me)
EEEE + 4EEEK + 6EEKK + 4 EKKK + KKKK =1
These are the chances for the 5 different pissible outcomes of a trial.
- EEEE is the chance for 4 escapes
- 4EEEK is the chance for 3 escapes
- EEEE + 4EEEK is the chance for a "team win" by 3 or 4 escapes.
- 6EEKK is the chance for 2 escapes/2kills, often refered to as draw.
- 4EKKK is the chance for a 3k
- KKKK is the chance for a 4k.
- 4EKKK + KKKK is the chance for 3 or 4 kills, whats commonly refered to as Killer win.
Now we just gotta substitue E and K for the escape chance number we wanna look at. You can also substitue K for (1-E) if you wanna remove a variable.
Now its important to note that E is both the escape chance, but also the winchance if you judge the survivors individually.
with E = 0.5 , the killer win chance becomes 4×0.5^4 + 0.5^4 = 0.3125 which is 31.25% and in this case also the chance for a "team win". Now if we judge survivors as a team, this might look fair, bit the game isnt like that. Survivors are still judged individually and thus its skewed in favor of the individual survivor.
With E =0.4 , the killer winchance is 4×0.4×0.6^3 + 0.6^4 which is 0.4752 (47.52%)
EDIT:
obligatory reminder these are averages and a rather simplistic model of the outcomes of a trial, a d all survivors are given the same escape chance, similiar how the devs simplified their statistics "on average theres a 40% escape rate".
Post edited by Raptorrotas on0 -
"Homophobes" Lol what are you on about???
I disagree - a ton of good and medium killers will leave if they continue to make the game easier and easier for survivors and losses mount for continuing to grease the squeaky, whiny wheels that are survivors.
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Where are your numbers coming from? You're also forgetting when you get to the final survivor end game that survivor has a much greater chance of escaping than being killed.
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I agree here - the stats is a poor indicator - it's just a lazy way to try and keep players interested when they don't want to push themselves to play harder. The game should be fair - every action should be counterable (albeit there are times when you have to guess what the right perk might be).
Adding pallets and windows to change the percentage is absolutely lazy. If there is a made for this which increases speed by 3% after being hit, killers should have a skill where when they chase survivors already hit and gain 3%. That's fairness.
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Based
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Averages? Like the dev stats? Like they once said "on average 39% escape rate." and the forum was on fire, you mightve witnessed it.
I simply concerted "rates" and made it a game of "chance", but i used the averaged 40% esxape chance as basic. Well, the first survivor dying more often/last survivor getting the hatch may be important to note, if they werent part of the total average anyways. All survivors get a 40% chance, on average.
Also check my reply for the math. Incase you didnt see it before just up a few posts.
Its a simple cointoss , escape or killed.
But if you wanna complicate it, go for it.
Here som variables you may find useful.
F first survivor penalty ( 0.8 < F < 1)
H for a hatch bonus for the last survivor? (1 < H < 1.15)
For the 2dead cases maybe for the third survivor a penalty for hatch vilturing necause survs give up at that point? But that would only be applicable for the cointosses with the first two bein "killed".
Theres a reason i kept it simple and "on average" for all survivors equally.
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If they nerf tunneling in the games current state, suddenly killer win rate drops. Tunneling is the easiest way to win rn. I don't even know how they would fix it lmao
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Idk either, it's made all my friends leave for good. And I've a lot of friends. :(
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They need to do a health update with a single patch tweaking :
- map balance
- buffing some killers, nerfing others
- nerfing all too strong perks on both sides
- items and addons
- anti-camp mechanic, anti-tunneling mechanic
There is a lot of work to be done, DbD's balance is a mess that is still holding up thanks to perks patching/countering the opposite team's perks.
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The biggest flaw (and its a big one) on using 4th binomial is that you are assuming that it's a toss up if someone wins. That you can "toss a coin" (as it were) a bunch and that distribution will always be the same. That doesnt take at all into the account that instances are RIDDLED with pallets and windows constantly starting and stopping action. That the survivors loop infinitely and bloodlust sucks and never turns on when it should. Killers are barely able to go a gnats ass distance faster, giving yet more preference to an already not too hard survivor game, etc. The survivor benefits are endless.
Dead By Daylight - Always a Pallet or a Window When You Need One!™
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