The Problem with Singularity

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Krazzik
Krazzik Member Posts: 2,379
edited July 2023 in Feedback and Suggestions

It's not been all that long since Hux's release and I already barely ever see him. It seems even after his more recent buff, people just aren't willing to give him another go, and I think I know why.

Personally I think that overall Singularity is reasonably-strong, and with the most recent nerfs to EMPs he's able to consistantly do much better in games, however...

I think the problem with him is that his counterplay, EMPs, get rid of too much of his kit at once, and don't have anyway for the killer to hinder them

Think about it like this, other killers have counterplay that the survivor has access too all the time, playing in a certain way to dodge hatchets, or to mindgame a phasing Spirit. This is something survivors have access to whenever, and they help counter the killer to an extent, but there's always something the killer can do to try and mitigate the counter, and if the counter does work, they can just try again straight away.

With Singulairity though, there's nothing you can do against EMPs. You can't sabotage the printers, you can't knock them outta survivor's hands with Franklin's. Survivors will get EMPs and use them and you can't do anything about it. Not only -that-, but they can feel like they completely neuter his power at times. If you've got some pods set up across the map and they're disabled, you gotta walk aaaaaall the way over there to do anything. This is made worse by the fact that you can SEE the survivors doing the gen right in front of you, but you're powerless to do anything about it. This isn't even going into the fact you often have to Slipstream a survivor, then Slipstream them a second time when they undoubtedly use their EMP straight away before you can ACTUALLY use your chase power.

While access to EMPs has been made more limited, so they won't have access to them for much of the match, when they DO have access to them it's just so damn demoralising as killer. Overall across the entire match I'm sure Singularity is fine and in a good place, but EMPs just feel too bad to play against and I feel that's why most people dropped him.

Post edited by Rizzo on

Comments

  • Krazzik
    Krazzik Member Posts: 2,379
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    Making EMPs harder to get would of course help Hux, but as long as they remain as strong as they are, I think they'll always continue to 'feel' really bad for the killer when they -are- used. This is the biggest issue I feel for him, how he 'feels' to play, not necessarily his overall strength, which I think is pretty decent.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669
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    I still remember people complaining after a singular day since Singularity got released that he needs a huge buff and to nerf EMPs to the ground. People's willingness to learn new things is deteriorating rapidly but it is what it is I suppose.

  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762
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    And even then you can only chase one survivor at a time and gens will be done thanks to wasting countless amount of time for nothing.

  • BlightedDolphin
    BlightedDolphin Member Posts: 1,754
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    I don’t think nerfing EMPs will make him more common. He’s already quite strong.

    The issue with him is that he is just frustrating to play.

    The amount of times I’ve seen a survivor on camera but they are slightly obscured by a twig so I can’t shoot them makes me not want to play. His cameras are also very disorienting, so I can understand why his pick rate is so low.

    He doesn’t really need any more buffs, just some QoL fixes to make him a bit more enjoyable.

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 4,995
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    It wasnt even a day. He was released 11pm my time, and I hopped on the forum at 7am when I got up to get the kids ready for school, to see how the update was going, and there were posts like that that were hours old. People expected to be mastering him immediately.

    Peanits has a post up in another thread where he mentions that they don't make killers under the assumption that everybody will play them. They expect people to have a few they prefer above the rest. That tells me the devs recognize that some killers will be less popular than others, and that it's okay. I see Singularity regularly, and the ones I face now are good. Sharp contrast to the first few days of his release. Some people put in the hours and it pays off.

  • MikaelaWantsYourBoon
    MikaelaWantsYourBoon Member Posts: 6,564
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    It does not matter how strong Singularity are... He is clunky and slow to control which makes him boring to play.


    This is case of Trickster. He is also strong 1 v 1 killer but Huntress is more popular than him. Even they have similar powers, why Huntress has more players?

    Because Huntress is fun to control, limited hatches true but whenever you hit, you take health state. Trickster got a lot buffs but even now, he feels boring to control.


    Singularity has same case. He can be pretty strong but he is really so boring to play. And he asks a lot effort for reward.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,419
    edited July 2023
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    The problem with Singularity is that on some maps, there are so many line of sight blockers, that even if the player had psychic powers in real life, and could predict the future of where the survivors will run to, that they still wouldn't be able to tag the survivor with a biopod, because there are often literally zero places the killer could place the camera, where the survivor is in line of sight long enough to get tagged with a biopod.

    And when the killer finally gets to a place where it should be able to tag a survivor, then it turns out the walls/objects where you want to place the cameras can't accept cameras because the camera attachment programming code is garbage. Like seriously just tag the floors, ceilings, and interactable objects as ineligible, let everything else be taggable by cameras, and just have the camera face directly at wherever the killer was when it shot the camera projectile. We don't need all this goofy code where it tries to orient the camera based on whatever subtle angle the object texture is facing.

  • MDRSan
    MDRSan Member Posts: 298
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    Him and nurse are currently my 2 favorite killers to play. Data point of one, but in most of my matches he seems to do pretty well. Occasionally I run into a group of survivors who can really leverage the EMPs well and it’s a bit more difficult but not unwinnable or anything. I just have to adjust from a mix of pre-placed and ad-hoc biopods to mainly in chase biopods.

    One adjustment to the EMPs that might be helpful to Hux but not too oppressive to survivors is to have a triggered EMP burn out any EMPs that are carried by survivors in range. That said, since Hux can replace pods fairly quickly I’m not sure the limited chaining that’s currently possible with EMPs is that big a problem.

    If they were to adjust the diameter of the EMP’s effect they would need to keep the vertical distance as is since survivors should still be able to hit them in trees.

    I would like them to do a map pass and fix any areas that are clearly solid and not too high up but inexplicably can’t have biopods attached since it should be made fairly clear what can and can’t have one attached without testing to see which reticle you get. That and the ability to fire through open windows/holes in buildings would be nice.

  • squbax
    squbax Member Posts: 1,365
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    And they were right? Singularity on ptb and release was literal dog water, I am of the people thank think is is rather strong but saying that the original complains had no merit is a massive cope, thats like saying that ptb blight or ptb ghostface were good, people just needed to get better.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,391
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    "In order to win games you just have to win games." That is basically the message of this post.

    We all know what this killer could do in theory but most of us don't seem to get the "oppressive" part down. It would be more helpful, if you explained how to actually do that instead of basically telling us to "git gud".

    No one expected to master this killer immediately. It's just that nobody was happy with getting stomped constantly for multiple hours with no real chance to improve because they had nothing to work with.

    Even now I genuinely don't see how one could be expected to try and get better with this killer, when it's easier to get into Nurse and Blight. Any of the top performing killers take less effort than Singularity and they get better results as well.

  • UnavailableName
    UnavailableName Member Posts: 298
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    Play it for 100 trials to learn how to play with it, then come back here and tell us it is a strong killer 😂

    • using the pods ? 2 seconds lost to infect a survivor, if the survivor breaks line of sight, 2 seconds lost for nothing
    • you infected a surv ? No worry, you have lost 2 seconds doing so, the survivor is 2 extra seconds ahead of you and guess what, he has an EMP in hand as every other survivors on the map
    • finally you got this survivor, now you wann check what the others are doing with your pods, oh crap, they are all disabled

    That is the Singularity experience, there is nothing you can do.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,437
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    Does that point really work though? If people really cared so much about playing strong characters they would use 10% of their talent and learn nurse who is honestly pretty easy. Play blight with c33 and be at the very least neme with 2.3X movement speed on demand.

    On the fun aspect that argument doesn't work either, one because it's subjective and two because people play low skill b and c tier killers all the time with low skill expression.

    Something is simply fundamentally wrong with Singularity's fun aspect regardless of his strength.

  • Evan_
    Evan_ Member Posts: 531
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    This is what content creators are for - I hear some of them are already pretty good with Hux. You could check how they do it.

    But if you really want the advice of a random mediocre killer...

    EMP takes 100 seconds to create. As there are 4 boxes, this means if you manage to infect someone in less than 20 seconds, sooner or later the survivors will have no EMP. If you manage to infect them every 20 seconds but away from gens, you may never get to use your power, but they won't be able to do gens you have pods around. Also note that pod-infection range is 15m, while EMP range is 10m. If you're good with on-the-spot trigonometry, you can have gens that take two EMPs to safely access.

    Of course I'm not telling you to git gud. That would be rude. But practice is indeed the solution to be more efficient in videogames.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,969
    edited July 2023
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    I feel that the problem has two main sides.

    1) firing an EMP as an all-for-one-solution, there is little strategy behind it. If you had to chose between its three main effects, ie cleanse onself/cleanse a friend/disable a pod, then survivors had to strageize their usage of EMPs instead of just clustering up and burn through them. Part of the Singularities kit, the spreading of its corruption, is like non-existing because of this. What does it matter if you infect all four survivors sitting on a gen? One EMP and all four are cleansed on on top of it that bio pod will be taken out of the game.

    This could be done pretty easy: default mode is the cleane oneself. Highlight another infected survivor: cleanse them. Highlight one bio pod: cleanse all bio pods in the vicinity with a pulse, you also set the pulse if you are not infected and don't highlight another survivor. Its hard to judge if this would make the Singularity way too strong and oppressive, but I know that THIS is the main reason, that he is so frustrating and unfun to play: survivors can undo ALL your hard work literally with the press of ONE button. BOOOM.

    2) Disabled bio pods are out of the game for far too long. The reduction from 60s to 45s sound generous on paper, thats a whooping 25%! But in actual game play it doesn't matter if a pod is disabled for 45s, 60s or even 180s, that bio pod won't be used again, you either have to manually remove it and plant it anew or you will cycle through your bio pods while its on cool down. 45s is like an eternity in this game; do you remember how it was during the Eruption meta and where everyone claimed that 25s felt like an eternity? And they were right, because this game is so fast pace at the moment. The Singularity just can't effort to wait out 45s. So I would propose to reduce the timer to 25s (maybe 30s, but I really prefer 25s). Thats long enough to keep working on a gen and maybe finish it when the Singularity is busy somewhere else, but not to casually disable a pod and start working "just because". 25s is pleanty of time to heal or linger a bit longer at a strong loop, but it doesn't give you all the time in the world to conduct your business, it sets a real and honest timer to things.

    As an added bonus, I think that the bio pods are really cumbersome to use and extremely passive. They shouldn't auto infect survivors, but maybe they could change colors if they detect something? I guess an outright notification would be very confusing, like pre-rework Spies in the Shadows, but a change of color would be really nice if they detect movement, signaling to the Singularity that something might warrant its attention over there. And yeah, the way even minor obstructions hinder the lock on is very frustrating and should be looked into. I also want to be able to quickly tap from one bio pod to the next, so give us some QOL life here. Oh! AND please, give us a noise notification when a bio pod gets disabled, its cut off from the network, so we should notice. As a trade off a disabled bio pod could black out and not transmit any picture at all, so you have no idea whats happening over there.

  • Kius
    Kius Member Posts: 140
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    the killer wont get any better as long survivors are the ones in control of his power.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 4,969
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    Also, one more QOL thing: if you aim your bio pods at an invalid placement, just let it plop up at the nearest available surface within 0,5m or so. We all know the pain of hunting for the right pixel and its really frustrating

    And how about some fun synergies with Spies in the Shadow? When the Singularity runs Spies, 4/5/6 Ravens on the Map randomly will be replaced with shiny cyber ravens. If allerted, they will explode and infect the survivor who set them off.

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 15,682
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    Yeah. I mean, I get the first changes to EMPs. But the Devs also have to keep in mind that Singularity can end up oppressive if you cannot remove the Pods quite reliable. Because you wont really get away when he is teleporting on you the whole time.

    And in the end, unless he becomes completely obnoxious to go against nerfing the EMPs will not make him more popular, since there is too much to learn to get the good results. You can just learn Nurse and just win almost every game because you dont play DBD and she is probably easier to learn and use than Singularity.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669
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    I literally used to main Trapper and got iri one with him a countless number of times. Is he a strong killer? No, he's far from it and that's why I have moved on to other killers because you cannot do anything against a coordinated SWF.


    If you play against solo queue where all survivors carry an EMP, even after all the changes, I want your survivor lobbies desperately when I play survivor. If all your pods are disabled, clearly you placed them too close together so that one EMP gets the job done.


    The point is that the player makes a killer strong.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669
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    They wanted to essentially make EMPs a waste of time to get. They were right that they needed a change but to that extent? It felt a little silly, don't you think?


    Also you cannot demand buffs to a killer after playing him for so little time. It doesn't work like that. Once you learn how to actually play the killer and see their weakness, that's when you do it, not because you didn't get a 4K immediately on your first game.

  • squbax
    squbax Member Posts: 1,365
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    I actually do not think that, if there was an item that for example disabled blight's rush for a time, getting it should take time.

    Also I disagree, on some killers like singularity that have relatively high skill floor yes, but an experience player can see flaws in a killer in very fee matches, comp and excomp players literally predicted how knight and skull merchant will be used for 3 genning day 1 on release, and they were met with the same argument of "its just the first day of release" only to be right in the end. They also talked about problems with borgo and garden of joy and people legit said "you havent learned the map is too early to complain".

    My point is: a good player that understands dbd does not need much time to judge a mechanic and actually give a wise opinion on it.

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,130
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    Singularity is bound to be an unpopular killer unless they improve some of the frustration points of his power which many exist outside of the EMPs.

    He's just a killer you really have to dedicate time to figuring out and given that there are just many other killers who are just as strong with much easier to figure out powers that are less frustrating to use, there's not a huge reason for many people to pick singularity.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669
    edited July 2023
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    The EMP does take time to generate, 90 seconds now, right?


    It was common sense that Skull Merchant and Knight could three-gen. It was right in your face as soon as you read about their ability. Did they predict about how Skull Merchant will have no chase power? Did they predict that Knight doesn't have much potential against SWF taking hits from the guards for their teammates? You have to play them in order to identify weakness. Knight mains are scary to face when they zone someone now because they spent their time learning how to do it properly especially against altruistic SWFs. Skull Merchant players now utilize their ability properly and close down entire loops for a guaranteed hit.


    I literally watched Singularity players become better and better as days passed.


    My point is: common sense exists. Figuring out if a killer's weakness is permanent and not solvable takes time.

  • UnavailableName
    UnavailableName Member Posts: 298
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    When you get an EMP, you do not use it right away and by the time you use it, 4 EMPs will be ready to get in the chests.

  • Wiccamanplays
    Wiccamanplays Member Posts: 130
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    I really like the idea of Singularity, but whenever I play him the end result is painful: constnat EMPs, janky camera placement and movement, and Slipstream being insufficient to end chases. The fundamental problem I keep finding is that the flow of his gameplay is too easily broken by Survivors with even a modicum of awareness. To get a good hit while using Singularity's power, you have to do the following:

    1. Place your biopod correctly, subject to procedurally generated map geometry. This may take several tries to work and takes time
    2. A survivor must be in your biopod's line of sight fully, and stay there enough to tag them. This may take several tries to work and takes time
    3. Get line of sight for a second shot which you must not miss or repeat step 2 but at a different location which you must select correctly. This may take several tries to work and takes time
    4. After you slipstream to the survivor, chase them and hit them with an M1. This may take several tries to work and takes time, as the survivor will have time to move away and put obstacles between themselves and you
    5. If at any point during this process the Survivor, or any other Survivor nearby, has an EMP either to hand or waiting on a printer (whose aura is revealed to them), return to step 1 and repeat. Survivors have to sacrifice nothing to produce EMPs

    Compare to Nurse, the strongest Killer in the game:

    1. See a survivor within range while patrolling
    2. Blink to them rapidly. If you position yourself poorly, you have a second (and potentially third) blink to correct yourself
    3. Hit them as if with an M1 attack and enter a recovery state, during which time you get your blinks back

    Singularity's power requires arguably the most complicated Killer methodology in the game, but is also the most subject to player error, Survivor counterplay or just bad RNG. To be good at Singularity you need to be able to achieve all of these steps more reliably than you could by just playing an easier, less clunky and less easily countered Killer. Yes, the maximum potnential of Larry is amazing, but it's so hard to reach I don't know if anyone outside of a handful of pro players and content creators will ever manage it. And while I agree with a diversity of skill floors and ceilings among Killers, is there any point in having a Killer who's so hard barely anyone can play him?

  • Loyal
    Loyal Member Posts: 1
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    Idk if all consoles are having this problem but I haven't gone up against the singularity once and I've been playing a lot of survivor but still no singularity