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An Open Letter to BHVR regarding disconnection bots.

While I have no illusion that this post will actually change anything, I want to express concern over the upcoming feature to add survivor AI/bots as replacement for disconnected players. While I see there are some very minor benefits to such a system, the negatives in my opinion far outweigh the potential gains.

The positives that I can see are that killers can gain perk value from disconnected survivors (for example, blood warden will activate even if the survivor disconnects when downed), and survivors can sometimes(*) have an extra body for the killer to juggle after a player disconnects. The killer part can be much more simply accomplished by leaving the disconnected survivor's avatar as a motionless body in the world for a short time (30-60 seconds) and then have the entity dispose of the survivor.

The biggest problem is this: This is a band-aid fix that solves literally none of the reasons why players disconnect. And while, sure, there are a variety of reasons why people might give up on a game, and it's unrealistic to deal with all of them, this solution deals with none of them, and is rife for future problems and abuse.

The issues that this solution presents are plentiful:

  • This system will lead to more disconnects. I'm personally not one to disconnect because I want to be a good teammate (among other reasons). I don't want to play a PvP game with AI teammates, that's not what DbD has ever been. But for people who don't want to play a match out for any reason, the core game now offers a win-win solution to the problem: that player can leave the game at the cost of only a disconnect penalty, and the survivor team isn't down a member and can play the game out. I don't feel like disconnecting should ever feel like a win-win scenario. (This isn't encouraging, or condoning disconnecting.... this is an observation of human behavior with this system in place).
  • This system is prime for abuse and griefing. Apparently if all 4 survivors disconnect, the killer is trapped in a lobby with 4 bots unless they, too, leave the match. This was my first thought of how the system could be flawed, and apparently this is how it functioned on the PTB (though I am unable to find video that shows this happening). It'll also be possible for killers to just "slug for the 4k" and camp the last survivor on the ground while the bot does gens or is given hatch. It gets even worse if and when the bots have pathing issues or get stuck, which can lead to soft locking the match (nemesis zombies are notorious for this). Which leads to the next issue...
  • Bots are prone to bugs, getting stuck, or getting into infinite logic loops. If there is ever a map geometry issue, it can and will be exploited. There are numerous situations, including hatch or hostage scenarios, where having a stuck bot teammate can unintentionally drag out the match for longer than necessary. In normal matches, if your teammate is bad, or makes a mistake it can turn a match, but you likely won't ever see that player again in your games. If the AI bot is bad, or buggy, or easily abused, you will potentially see them in every game you ever play. You can't avoid them, block them, or even lobby dodge them. The only way to guarantee you won't be playing with a bot teammate is to not play DbD at all.
  • Bot cannot/do not coordinate or strategize. The bots will simply try to avoid the terror radius and try their best to be helpful. But with no other changes, this will severely strengthen the 3-gen style of gameplay, since the bots will just do the gens that aren't being camped by the killer. Essentially, the bots will guarantee the 3-gen is successful and hand the killer map control. With BHVR having stated that "the strategy of camping a 3-gen from the start of the game is not being intended gameplay," I'm unbelievably disappointed that this solution will make that play style stronger. This doesn't even include other situations where the barest minimum of coordination can make a difference.
  • Bot capabilities are also possibly problematic. If the bots are "bad" at the game, then there's little benefit to the survivor team to have an extra warm body. If the bots are "good" at the game, then it opens up a different kind of griefing where survivors teams could "bully" the solo out of the game to "get a better bot teammate instead."
  • Players who want to "spite" the team can still avoid the DC penalty, avoid the bot entirely, and just give up or afk. A sacrificed survivor isn't replaced, so having this solution in place becomes meaningless. (Again, I'm not condoning this behavior, but this is something players already do, and will continue to do).

While it's subjectively my opinion, game balance is seemingly the biggest contributor to early disconnects. Every game currently feels like a one-sided match in one direction or the other. Killers often feel like the game is over if they obtain their first hook and pressure by the time 3 gens are done, and survivors are very often tunneled out of the game for next to zero BP and little opportunity to actually play a well-rounded match.

The members of the dev and community teams that post here are often saying that everything BHVR works on takes time and resources, and you can't feasibly work on everything at once with finite manpower. I agree. Though I am sad that something that I consider to be vastly detrimental to the game has taken away from other fixes that the game currently needs, balance included.

I personally think the potential negatives of this system far outweigh the minor positive gains, and I think this system should not go live. I seem to be in the minority of players concerned about the upcoming bot replacement system, but at least I've voiced those concerns at this point.

Comments

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,429
    1. Bots aren't mean to reduce DC's, only to lessen the impact of a DC on a match, so that a single DC doesn't make the entire match a write off.
    2. DC penalty isn't going away, so there's no reason to think there will be an increase in DCs.
  • Frogsplosion
    Frogsplosion Member Posts: 273

    "game balance is seemingly the biggest contributor to early disconnects"

    Yep, but we can't fix that without putting actual effort forth, so we get bots instead.

  • AssortedSorting
    AssortedSorting Member Posts: 1,348
    edited July 2023

    Simply put, a player might want to disconnect simply for the reason of "I want to". You can't stop disconnects. And personalities vastly differ. What you might disconnect over might be a non-issue for others, and vice versa, further muddying potential remedies.

    DBD is also a game about facing phobias (even one as simple as facing the concept of losing...), hand in hand with the horror aspect. I don't condone disconnecting as a result of phobia, but I understand it. And this solution at least doesn't completely trash the experience for the other survivors.

    Even in a SWF situation where someone dips out, they still lose out on playing with their friends (and if they simply choose to spectate, will still have to see what they don't want to see). And from an introverted point of view the player still has to deal with the disconnect penalty, in both cases they will.

    In the event that all Survivors disconnect, I do hope they add in a feature for unpunished disconnect from the Killer.



    I'm not talking about balance reasons for a disconnect, as that is a whole separate issue from what DC bots will address. Still important, don't get me wrong. But DC bots are not supposed to be about quelling balance concerns.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,889

    No, but if the solution to someone who wants out of a match is to just give up on hook, which avoids the DC penalty entirely, it also avoids the bot replacement system too.

    At best, it just means that the same loophole still allowed someone out of the match for essentially free, and completely bypasses the 'replacement bot player' of the new system too.

    So if the system doesn't work in cases where survivors want out no matter what, doesn't reduce disconnects (or doesn't even address them), and is completely subject to bugs and abuse otherwise even when the system works, why is it coming?

    It feels like this is a net negative in an awful lot of cases, no change at least half the time, and once in a blue moon might actually do something productive.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,429

    It also doesn't cure cancer either.

    How is it a negative exactly?

  • Jhei
    Jhei Member Posts: 82

    Because it is better to have to deal with a 3v1 every time someone doesn't want to be in a match than to have something to slightly mitigate damages and possibly make those matches playable. If it doesn't fix 100% of the problems in the game, there's no reason to attempt to even fix 10% of the problems. Instead it's best to just not do anything at all and keep complaining and make sure nothing ever gets changed.

  • JawsIsTheNextKiller
    JawsIsTheNextKiller Member Posts: 3,367
    edited July 2023
    • The system may lead to more disconnects. It might even lead to fewer. Currently, you can DC to give your teammate the hatch or to deny the killer a Mori or Adept.
    • The killer can be forced to play against 4 bots. True, for now. But its an easy fix if it becomes common. Disable the DC penalty if there are only 1 or 2 humans left in the game.
    • Humans are prone to doing dumb stuff too.
    • Bot cannot/do not coordinate or strategize. Some might say, neither can Meg.
    • If survivors do decide to bully the solo, they aren't being efficient themselves. By the time the solo disconnects, they will have already thrown the game.
    • A killer avoiding the bot is not making a good call. That bot will be doing gens. Just giving up or going AFK is already a problem. It will remain when bots come in. The bots are irrelevant.
  • Emeal
    Emeal Member Posts: 5,273

    BOTs are not meant to fix why people DC in the first place, but lessen that impact on players who dont DC.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,889

    I listed several ways this system can be worse than an empty seat. The entire argument isn't about just reducing disconnects, so I'm not sure why you seem focused on only that. (Except that that's an easy straw man for a long winded post)

    Bots make 3 gens worse because they can't strategize, bots can and will get stuck and will eventually soft lock games, it leads to abuse and griefing potential. I'm not gonna list it all again if you didn't read it the first time.

    I get that I'm the only one concerned here, and I already said that. I was hoping BHVR might possibly see some flaws in their system, especially since they overlooked the glaringly obvious situation where all 4 survivors disconnect in a match. That's a pretty big oversight that isn't hard to predict, and there's nothing in place (as of the PTB) to prevent the killer from being stranded in that game.

    This seems incredibly poorly thought out for such a large game change.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,490


    I don't think i agree with your 3 gen assessment... I think I'd prefer a dumb ass bot who keeps running back and forth to tap a 3 gen generator over a DC icon... just the threat of it is powerful in of itself Hell even if a survivor sits in a corner of the map while dead on hook, they are being more useful than being dead based on what they MIGHT be doing.

    Having a bot does increase the chance you'll lose.... but not as badly as DC... as the Killer can quite happily secure their 3 gen easier vs. 3 players because that is one less hand to help in healing/pulling off hooks.

    The increase in DCs may be a factor... but as I've stated in other threads, I'm very much of the mind that DC's and suiciders on first hook should be tracked and face stronger bans the level of being sent to the shadow realm. Would anyone miss them? 😉

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,889

    The 3-gen concern is more that the bot will avoid the terror radius and do the other 4 gens first. So you won't get much chance to use things like potential energy to try and break the 3-gen.

    Bots can't really coordinate or strategize when in the 3-gen situation either, so once the killer turns around the bot is likely to wait until the terror radius fades before going back, where the correct play is to pressure the gen immediately. Depending on the map, the bot might not even enter the 3 gen area at all because of the TR.

    You also have the problem that the bot isn't going to realize or understand to leave the 3-gen area, so they're likely to try and loop there or just walk around the edge of the map nearby. Probably going to get themselves hooked in the 3-gen as well.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,429

    Bots make 3 gens worse because they can't strategize

    But still better than no survivor at all.

    You also have the problem that the bot isn't going to realize or understand to leave the 3-gen area, so they're likely to try and loop there or just walk around the edge of the map nearby. Probably going to get themselves hooked in the 3-gen as well.

    But still better than no survivor at all.

    In each case, they can be providing a distraction for the killer, freeing you up to tackle the 3 gen.

    Still not seeing the downside.

  • Arkren
    Arkren Member Posts: 10

    bots this bots that... almost all of what you say here is nonsense. bots are simply here so that if a survivor DCs, the other survivors still have a change at winning that game. that can only be good. and they are also there so that stupid hatch plays or dc-ing to negate perks to the killer stop. is 100% something good for the people still playing the game, is only bad for the dc-ers, since they now affect the game less, and ironically, since dc-ers are usually bad at the game, is not even going to be much difference between one and the bot it leaves behind

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,490
    edited July 2023

    I get your point, but you're taking the worst case scenario with a bot and comparing it to the best case scenario of the 3 players with no bot.

    So our worst case is assuming that a killer won't go for a 3 gen themselves and the 3 gen will occur naturally as part of the bots behaviour.

    The scenario you describe is possible, but the best case for 3 players to win, is the killer has to ignore the other 2 survivors for ages, while 1 loops then like a God. This ofc usually won't happen, and instead you'll spend most of the game saving each other and not doing gens.

    The actual issue is the DC, thats why I keep advocating for stronger ban hammering of these selfish losers. 10 minutes at base seems fine to seriously crimp people doing it.

    Thing is, what do we do after a DC has already occured? I'd rather have 3 players and a bot idiotically creating a 3 gen, than just 3 players flat and spend the whole game burning a slow death by way of the chain of survivor getting hooked, unhooked, healed, and get to touch a gen for maybe 5 seconds before having to for the next save/unhook.

    If you get more that 2 gens done with 3 players, you're doing really well. I'd happily take a 3 gen setup with a dumbass bot, than a 6 gen where I spend all my time running around the map unhooking/healing, and trying not to get slugged. At least I have a "chance" to win with a bot.