Hot take
If Made for this is bad so Is bloodlust.
If made for this rewards the survivor for being "bad" at chase so does Bloodlust…
In the current state of dbd Neither should Exist In my opinion especially bloodlust considering it was a mechanic meant to counter infinites but infinites don’t exist anymore so I think that it maybe shouldn’t past tier 1.
As for Mtf I don’t think the perk should have two effects but then again 3% isn’t really much and the endurance is hard to get value from if the killer isn’t slugging.
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Ooo just what I like to read, a spicy hot take in the morning with my coffee.
Hag mains probably: Bloodlust, what's that? 👵
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MFT is so much better than blood lust. If a killer really has to get BL 2 or 3 to down you, they aren't winning regardless.
MFT, IW and Resilience is carrying me on survivor right now.
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MFT: Free chase extension that thrives on bad killer design and horrendous maps
Bloodlust: Something to help bad killers deal with horrendous maps
Hmm...... kinda seems like their completely different besides having the same effect.
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Some maths: It takes 90 seconds to repair a generator solo. Cut that in half if repairing with one other survivor. BL1 is 15 seconds. BL2 is 25. BL3 is 35. 25 Seconds to down a survivor, about 7 seconds to hook them. Depending on perks like Eruption, Pain Resonance and Jolt, there's a good chance that survivors aren't making it out if you're getting a hook roughly every 32 seconds.
Each tier of Bloodlust is 5% haste. Made for This is 1% per tier. With just Made for This, a survivor will have a maximum base speed while running of 103%. At Bloodlust 2, a 115% killer goes up to 125%. That extra 10% means you're more likely to catch the survivor at a loop, or down them before they make a pallet or window.
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I don't think anyone's claimed that MfT rewards bad survivors, they're saying the opposite majority of the time. That it rewards good loopers and makes them even stronger. Whoever's saying it rewards bad survivors (if there's any) they're that desperate to get it nerfed lmao.
They're also saying that it punishes M1 killers and does nothing for M2. Which is something to be looked at (but we cannot really know because there's many people claiming they can't win as killer...which might point to a skill issue).
Removing BL 2 and 3 isn't that unpopular of an opinion, but I'm going to assume it greatly helps low MMR killers, rather than high MMR ones. So it might stay for a while.
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I don't really take issue with either and both are okay. I believe tiers 2 and 3 are where you'll see differences in opinion commonly. Personally, I don't get there often on too many killers, but when I do it's usually due to the ever infamous strat of "Shift+W." I think if you've been chasing someone for a while then it's okay in a killer-survivor cat-and-mouse to have a catch-up mechanic, though that opinion can change instantly depending on how my last few matches have gone.
Is it bad? No, I just think it's playing the game as intended. You don't have to be the best at chases even when certain on top killers basically play themselves, where as the weaker ones need it just to keep up.
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It’s the same thing… Mtf is meant to extend chases while bloodlust is meant to end them quicker… How is it not the same??
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Bloodlust was initially introduced to help killers combat infinites. There are no true infinites in the game anymore. While maps are bad, they certainly aren't bad enough to warrant up to 15% haste.
Made for This does nothing for bad survivors. It doesn't take a bad survivor and suddenly make them into a god looper. It doesn't really make good survivors "better" at looping, it just makes it more likely that they will make that pallet/window.
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I need a little clarification here. You just assume the killers will down the survivor instantly after getting BL2? Your excluding maps/chains and tiles in their entirety in your post. There's many situations where the killer needs to break a pallet or you know m1 you while healthy. Even if we take into account that the killer instantly hits the survivor after achieving BL2, that would still be 50 seconds.
3% means far more than 80% of the people on this forum hard defending mft will ever admit. I can feel it when I run mft every game and the 1 in 100 games I run c33 I can see it.
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Bloodlust is still necessary for m1 killers on certain maps. Sure there will be those garbage players bloodlusting tier 3 for one hit, but if you just went like 48 seconds without being hit guess what? thats a ton of gen progress. They are heavily overcommitting to get the BL3 and practically throwing if the survivors understand gens are how you win.
MFT Works wonders for bad survivors. I'm sure you've heard this before but since it increase the time it takes to reach them by 20% W gaming becomes an unstoppable monster.
Doesnt make good survivors better at looping
At which point you describe how it directly enhances how effective they are at looping. Reaching a pallet or window where you would have been hit is insanely valuable. one pallet can guarantee so much distance and time sink.
The distance at which a chase begins (technically) is 12m. If I start a chase with a survivor 12m away from me, they gain 5 entire more seconds before they go down if they have MFT. 12/0.6=20, while 12/0.48=25. Thats 5 more seconds to cover ground to a window or pallet.
5 x 4.12 = 20.6. You can cover an extra 20.6m of ground with MFT. Essentially, take where you would have gone down without MFT, look 20.6m in any direction. if theres a window or pallet, that chase continues simply because MFT exists. I'd say that makes them a better looper. Maybe not in the skill sense but in practice it absolutely makes a difference.
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Because of their purpose. At first glance it may appear that way, but fundamentally they are different.
Similarites:
haste status effect
used to affect chasetime one way or the other
Differences:
MFT has no limitations beyond its injury requirement
BL needs to wind up, and deactivates if you do anything related to the chase
BL really only does anything on weaker killers who need it on certain maps
If a bad killer needs BL 3 to down someone, they are sinking massive time into doing it. Therefore, while you might go down, your team makes crazy gen progress while you do. There is never a time where getting BL 2 or 3 is worth the gen progress. It was designed to deal with infinites from old dbd, now thats transferred to helping out killers like sadako on GoJ. Do you think a sadako will be able to do anything at all on GoJ without BL? Granted thats an extreme example but it showcases BL's purpose quite well. It exists to help when map RNG wont allow you to finish a chase efficiently. The only times BL will kick in is in extreme cases on low tier m1 killers.
Blight will get no value from BL. If he activates rush, which he most certainly will, he loses BL. Same with any killer power getting used, it deactivates BL. Essentially BL only does jack on killers with no method of downing beyond m1. So it only helps the killers who need it. Its unreasonable to remove it just because it ends chases quicker, we can remove it when every map is balanced.
When it comes to MFT however its far different. Unlike BL it doesnt exist as a patch to bad map design, or exists to fix low tier killers. it actually thrives on that horrendous map RNG, and harms those low tiers disproportionately to the high tiers. its completely unearned and has the massive effect of increasing chasetime by 20%. Being injured doesnt count as earning it; its an inevitability. And unlike resilience theres no reason to stay injured outside of chase so you cant call it risk/reward. Its just a perk designed to boost unskilled players while making good players unbeatable, while crushing low tier killers while doing nothing to nurse and blight.
MFT and bloodlust are polar opposite mechanics, one is problematic while the others a necessity.
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It takes 2 hits to down a survivor, so if you are relying on Bloodlust 2, it would take a minimum of 50 seconds to down a survivor, not 25. And that doesn't take into account if you lose bloodlust at any point or if you don't hit them the millisecond bloodlust 2 activates...
Also how would you even be getting a hook every 32 seconds with that logic? You would have to teleport right on top of someone straight after hooking them.
So a MINIMUM of 57 seconds to hook a survivor by relying on Bloodlust 2... that's not that bad. That's over half a generator that you stalled for. And that's not even taking into account locating the survivor, breaking any pallets, getting stunned, breaking chase, any exhaustion perks, the fact that most killer can't even use their power in this scenario, or the fact that you don't hit someone that second bloodlust activates... yeah I don't think Bloodlust is actually that big of a deal...
I could get downs faster by just using my power.
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Does IW stand for iron will? Ty :)
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Bloodlust was turned off for a weekend as a test, to see if killers still need it.
Turns out, yes.
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It's so weird to me everytime there's calls to nerf something someone will demand to nerf something on the other side like it's a negotiation, you know the other side isn't actually in control of anything and bhvr makes these choices right?
As for the topic of bloodlust I don't know too many killers that even reach Bloodlust I don't think anyone even would care if 2 and 3 are gone you actually need to be a bad killer to get that high and I would actually encourage them to get rid of it because it would make bad killers better faster.
Bloodlust 1 I'm torn on but ultimately there are still enough stupid map designs in the game I think it's warranted and at 15 seconds to activate it's not like it's abusable, you see it pop up and it's literally like a big sign letting you know you're losing.
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You know, Bloodlust is actually a band aid fix to BHVR's terrible map design. They know how stacked some of their maps are and they know that some killers really have no chance to deal with all of these ressources. If they removed Bloodlust, they would take away any chance for weak killers to hit survivors on strong structures. Of which there are plenty on almost every map.
Your average M1 killer will not get a hit on a survivor that plays perfectly around Shack, Jungle Gyms, TL walls, main buildings and even most pallet loops. Because they only have a 'right play', if the survivor messes up. Like, what do you expect the Pig to do at shack? Fly?
Bloodlust is the reason there should not be something like MFT. Not the other way around. There are still loops, where an experienced killer will give up chase because they know that they have no possible way to outplay them. Look at the Groaning Store House, Father Campbell's Chapel (with some lucky rng), Garden of Misery main building, Myers House and House of Pain for example. No matter what the killer does there, the survivor can simply react and adapt to the killer's every move. Which results in the killer relying on survivor mistakes in order to even have a chance to get a hit.
And we haven't talked about what MFT does in these scenarios...
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You cannot say this here. People dont want to accept the fact that Bloodlust is a handholding mechanic for Babykillers and often used in situations where it should not be used or should not be needed. It makes fair Loops unfair (even when reaching Bloodlust 1).
But Killers want this crutch. Especially here, where you can clearly see how many Killer players are struggling with the game.
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noone wants bloodlust AND maps that are the reason it is in the game in the first place.
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The problem is that Bloodlust (and many other bandaids BHVR introduced over time) are used for things where it is not needed. If you have an unsafe Pallet, this is usually a fair Loop because both players can outplay each other. However, with Bloodlust, this is not the case anymore since the Killer will get the Hit once reaching Bloodlust 1.
There are not really any structures in the game anymore where Bloodlust is needed. Because you would either need to break the Pallet (resetting Bloodlust anyway) OR you have a fair chance of outplaying the Survivor. And if this does not work, there should be no handholding so that the Killer can catch the player who is better than them.
(Bamboozle is another example - introduced to combat strong Windows which lead to long Loops. Nowadays people use it for simple T/L-Walls which, when played correctly by the Killer, should grant a Hit anyway)
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People need to stop make comparisons for things they don't understand.
Bloodlust resets upon breaking pallets and killers using their power. There's very few killers in this game who should regularly be seeing bloodlust T1 and it really only exists for the situations where tile rng is really bad.
MTF on the other hand will always be present in a match, because being injured is the easiest thing to "accomplish" as a survivor. MTF is a problem while bloodlust is not, because bloodlust exists as a basekit mechanic to counter bad rng. MTF is not.
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You might be correct about single structures. However chained structures are a whole other matter. I've had shack window lined up with a long wall window. I've had a window on main on Father Cambel's chapel line up with a TL window. Those busted chained windows don't happen every game, but when they do it's pretty miserable.
That's the sort of edge case that BL is still in the game to deal with.
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I start off by saying that I also think they could delete BL2 and BL3 but not for the same reasons you listed. I don't think BL2 or BL3 rewards the killer in fact I think it misleads killers to stay in the chase for too long. If you depend on BL2 and BL3 all the time to get downs you not going to win that match, gens will be done and 2 or more survivors will escape. That said I do think BL should still be in the game bc of the map design. Dbd suffers from poor map design and not going to change in my eyes. The devs will continue to make safe maps where loops can easily be chained together and allow survivors to extend chases for so long. Maps like Graden of Joy and Shattered Square will continue to be made.
Also, I don't think you can compare MFT and bloodlust since they act differently from one another. MfT only has one condition and that is to be injured which is a state a survivor will be in at some point no matter what. I know it has another condition but being exhausted is something a survivor more or less can control mostly bc killers only have 4 perks that can cause exhaustion, two of those perks require survivors to heal(one they have to be inside the killer TR), one requires the survivor to be injured as you hook someone and that perk has a long cooldown, and the other just requires the survivor to touch gen(the best one in imo out of the 4) and not all killers have addons for exhaustion. Outside these two conditions, there is no other way to lose MfT. Now look at BL, it requires the killer to be in chase for 15, 25, and 35 secs, now if you stay in the chase for more than 25 sec imo as a killer you doing yourself more harm than good since that giving time for the other 3 survivors to group up and finish gens. BL is also really easy to lose as a killer, you lose BL when you: break a pallet, hit a survivor, use your power, or lose the chase. As you can see killer cant keep BL like survivors can keep MFT.
Another issue I have MFT is the fact it hurts lower-tier killers but does nothing to high-tier killers. Nurses, Blights, Spirts, and Weskers care less about MFT because they all have powers that help them in a chase. Meanwhile, Trappers, Pigs, Freddys, and Sadakos do feel MFT in the hands of good survivors since they are mostly m1 killers with no chase powers. Before someone says it, yes I do think the devs should rework/buff lower-tier killers but the reality is they won't. Peanit has said in another thread that lower-tier killers dont get looked at a lot of times bc of time management and priorities. They just don't have the time or feel like some of these killers need changes. They think Trapper is fine and have no plans on buffing him even though pretty much everyone who plays the game thinks he is the worst killer in dbd. So I don't get why ppl continue to ask for lower-tier killers to be buff when the chances of them getting changed are so low, to begin with. I feel like it's a fantasy now more than anything.
Either way, MFT only makes good players, even more, stronger and makes already easy maps to loop even easier. My main problem isn't really with MFT itself but with map design. I think maps are made way too safe and easy for survivors but devs have shown me nothing that shows me they can make a balanced map in the past year. So imo is easier to ask for a perk to be changed than a map or killer changes since the devs have shown they rather change perks more than other parts of their game.
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I have two problems with MfT
1) It stacks with Hope making survivors almost invulnerable to non-speedy non-ranged killers in the endgame
2) It has an additional very strong effect: giving a survivor Endurance when they pick up, which should be a separate perk
So, is 3% an OP thing alone? No. Should MfT stay as it is? Also no.
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Bloodlust goes up in increments of 5->2.5->2.5 and the way you word it makes it sound like MFT needs time to activate '1% per tier' MFT activates instantly and 3% for survivors is infinitely more powerful than even 10% for killers lmao
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15% means they spent 1.30m on you
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You need know something about the game - if you not - you will say that Made For This isn't too strong.
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connected loops, straight up broken set ups, some mains like garden's could buy minutes if bloodlust didn't exist. i 100% agree on your take about "bloodlusting killers", but idk how bearable the game would be for especially weaker killers if bl didn't exist.
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From a mechanical standpoint the goal of survivors in chase is to escape the killer, while from a practical standpoint, once you know how to loop, the goal becomes waste the killers time, meaning survivors try to stay in chase for as long as possible.
People view bloodlust as rewarding bad play but it can motivate you as survivor to escape. You could argue that a survivor who can't escape from the killer before bloodlust is playing badly and deserves to be punished by bloodlust, just as you can argue that a killer that gets to blood lust is playing badly.
The longer you stay in chase the more dangerous chase becomes. This is both mechanically and thematically appropriate. So bloodlust makes sense, when the goal is trying to escape.
Comparing MFT to bloodlust is kinda apples and oranges but people do it simply because they are both speed boosts and can't separate them beyond that.
Does MFT do a lil too much, I think in its current form yeah it does. Its representative of the kind of power creep that sells new expansions. People will buy it run it excessively and BHVR will have to nerf it into the ground because it does way too much and is overused.
But those nerfs will be a long time coming, because a powerful new perk that everyone wants will sell a lot of expansions. A combination of people touting it and complaining about it will drive the interest in it.
In the meantime being injured will give survivors a substantial boost to chase extension, resulting in BL being almost necessary to catch them in some circumstances, especially if they are built not to escape chase but rather to sink killer time. But to get blood lust you have to over commit to a bad chase so its a lose-lose for the killer the moment they injure the survivor.
It's mechanically and thematically a rather poor idea and really only works if the survivor is motivated to escape over sinking the killers time, which will not be the case for a lot of games.
So at low MMR you'll get more survivors escaping after the hit, which will suck but not be a disaster, at high MMR you'll get even more time sinking chases where people just run around the same rock pallet saving, rinse and repeat only it'll go on for longer now.
So what will happen, well players who feel they can't catch survivors will try to avoid chases, which means camping lots of camping, stacking yet more gen regression meta to give the slowdown, 3 gens that don't commit to chases. You know all the good stuff that players seem to really love.
So expect MFT to get toned down at some point but saying if they nerf it then they have to remove bloodlust kinda demonstrates a lack of understanding about how these effects get applied and used.
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I'm running on like 4 hours of sleep. When I said Tiers in relation to Made for This, I was referring to the perk tiers. Tier 1 Made for This is 1% Haste.
Now, I won't argue the perk isn't strong because it is, but is it overpowered like all the complainers are making it out to be? Hardly. It's still outclassed by Sprint Burst, and the 3% doesn't guarantee you distance like old Dead Hard did. You also have to already be injured to get value from it, and you have to run loops perfectly in order for the perk to actually seem broken.
Your average survivor isn't a god-looper who knows exactly how many times they can greed a loop before they have to leave that loop. The game isn't balanced for high mmr. That's about the long and short of it. Should it lose the Endurance effect? Sure. But the 3% Haste thing? Not OP.
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Okay but we don't balance around those who can't use it we balance on those who can. If it can be absolutely broken to the point it can win games alone then it should be brought down especially for an asymmetrical game. Its why nurse was hit with nerf after nerf, because they balance it around the top performers.
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Yes
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i play both sides, i think both need changing. reduce MFT to possibly 2%. it could have a tier system as 1% for tier 1, then 1.5% and then 2%. and for bloodlust, remove tier 2-3 for bloodlust and keep 1. you only need tier 1 anyway.
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Being beaten by god windows is not skill, it is bad map design. Your statements are the same as saying the old mori were balanced because you have to hook someone once. If there were no bloodlust maps would need to be shortend so much and windows would need to be nerfed <the map windows, not the perk>. Sadly, bad map design ensures that bloodlust will remain till the end of this game.
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1 is a mechanic that basically to this day can not be removed due to how poorly balanced are the maps and the only times it gets out of hand is when people reach bloodlust 3 but by that point u already lose the entire game if the survivor are repairing / also gets countered if you are on a god pallet which the killer is forced to break to continue the chase.
meanwhile you have mft which basically works passively without giant requirements , you dont need to be good to get value and it has the potential to be insanely broken on the already unbalanced maps but funny enough only the top tier killer can counter it by playing with their chase powers normally , meanwhile the m1 killer had to suffer it by not running an exhaustion addon / perk.
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And by needing bloodlust you mean tier 1, not 2 and 3. Right?
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The 3% haste only becomes broken when survivors play perfectly. The average survivor doesn't play perfectly. They make mistakes. They don't run loops as tight as they can. They second-guess themselves. They get caught on obstacles in the loop. They don't know the exact number of times you can greed a loop, and sometimes they over-greed and get punished for it.
The game is not balanced around the top performers. It's balanced around the average. If it were, Tru3Ta1ent would have nothing to complain about. I think it goes without saying why Nurse was hit with nerf after nerf when you look at just how broken Nurse used to be.
MFT is not winning games by itself. If it were, even average survivors who are somewhat competent at looping would constantly be escaping, but they're not. MFT is still outclassed by exhaustion perks.
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This has already been talked about and mathed over. The reality is that movement speed increases are more powerful on survivor than killer.
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Does it matter which tier? As bloodlust was already nerfed and yesterday i´ve seen a streamer complain about bloodlust, while he ran the killer around for same log for... well to long.
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Bloodlust needs to exist bc of map/tile design being horrendous, made for this doesn't, just another terribly designed perk that gets you free distance for doing nothing for no good reason. Also both effects are huge, the 3% I find easily noticable on surv and can make loops take longer to get through multiple times over and over again
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Sure remove bloodlust. But before that
Ask the dev's to rework every. single. map. To not have infinites then.
Then lets talk again.
MFT rewards you for getting hit where you gain more precious time so your team recovers or gets more gens in. Bloodlust is a try to "end" a chase depending on the situation.
Lets not put the "hollier than thou" here. MFT is an unhealthy perk. Just like DH and more and all other gen regression perks that died.
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It does infinitely help the average player because if we're using your logic, then you're aware that the average killer will also have a much harder time in countering a survivor who has a 3% faster movement speed. I don't think I'm some e sports level survivor by any means and I think MFT has won me several games I would've lost had I had an exhaustion perk
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Could it be a possibility that the killer they were versing simply wasn't good?
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Survivors already go around loops faster than killers making that free 3% pretty massive and BL is still a needed mechanic until they get their act together and change maps that have insanely strong setups.
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It helps, sure, but that doesn't make it overpowered nor is it the primary contributing factor as to why they won. I'm not saying the perk isn't strong, because it is, but I still don't see any good reason for the 3% haste to be removed because people haven't figured out how to play around it.
I'd much rather see MFT every game than Sprint Burst every game.
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Absolutely. The killer was bad, no doubt. But what was annoying, was how the streamer first made fun of the killer and then asked for the bloodlust nerf.
Bloodlust was a bandaid to reduce (near) infinites. I´m sure the devs aren´t happy about the whole mechanic. But it is what it is. Unless people want to have less pallets/windows or basekit faster killers.
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