Is BHVR only balancing for experienced SWF & nobody else?
The past year or so,I've noticed a few trends in the designs.
New Players are disregarded,with the new "much fairer" SBMM putting them against 5000 hour players. I've never seen this happen so often with Ranks. Every single new Killer design has been like 10 pages long and hard to pick up and understand and there's no info in game on how to play against them
Perks & Killer designs like Sadako,Skull Merchant,Circle Of Healing,OTR all are abysmal for Solo players and are pretty good for SWF.
Most of the popular killer meta perks in the last year or so were all MUCH stronger vs Solo survivors,but not SWF.
Am I missing something or is BHVR going by the logic of only balancing for SWF players with thousands of hours and leaving all other players in the dust?
The only two exceptions I've seen in the last 2 years have been the new HUD and Hook Grabs (Which both were changes the community was screaming for,with Otz in particular if I recall correctly wanting Hook Grabs gone for years)
Comments
-
BHVR balances for low skill casual survivors, not SWF's.
The majority of the DBD player base are casual low skill survivors, so it makes sense.
26 -
I dont see how though. New CoH is nigh-on unusable in solo queue and if you're playing casually,get ready to eat dirt from Slugmadako and Gen Merchant
9 -
uhh...huh?
What?
Bu........how?
Are you coming from another time line where killer really still has meta perk could use?
6 -
Dead Lock,Pain Res,Corrupt,Gift Of Pain,Jolt,Floods,BBQ,NOED,are all of these dead and I missed something?
16 -
They should balance based on high mmr but they clearly balance for lower mmr and casual players that are the biggest amount on players.
7 -
you are not really saying this. you're not real
0 -
Bingo.
7 -
MFT - Resilience - Hope - Distorsion - Plot Twist - 20 pallets - huge gen regression perk nerf - last maps are all survivor sided
Well...
11 -
No they don't, low skill casual survivors are getting farmed and solos are hopeless against tunneling it's very effective atm, if anything they balance for casual killers, low skill killer can still get 1-2k pretty easily
8 -
I would have thought they balance for casual, low skill killers because heaven forbid 1 or 2 gens pop in an unreasonable amount of time. And considering hits to DH, CoH and BNP it still doesn't seem good enough to please the killer base.
3 -
That killed their other game—Death Garden
4 -
I think they try to take all player strata into account when they do things. Usually, when they nerf really strong perks or items it’s because that effect won’t really hinder casual gamers too much b/c they don’t play optimally (except medkits/self healing. Not sure what the thinking was on that). I also think they try to equalize top-performing killers and top-performing survivors but it’s not easy at all. I believe this is why a lot of ‘weaker’ killers are left as-is. In fact Peanits mentioned something quite similar.
2 -
To please everyone, the game's rules should change depending the MMR you play on :
- getting bloodlust faster or slower
- more or less pallets on the map
Just this would remove a lot of the frustration.
They cannot balance the game for everyone with the same parameters.
1 -
False.
The game wouldn't be in the state its in if this was true.
5 -
This is what I'm seeing.
3 -
It definitely isn't balanced with solo queue in mind. Solo players get DESTROYED more often than not. You don't even need to take my word for it. You can go on twitch watch reasonably good survivors play solo. They lose more than they win. Solo is still by far the hardest role to win in because you almost never get a full team of good survivors. All it takes is one idiot for the entire team to collapse. The game may favor survivors in the hypothetical scenario of a coordinated four man team where everyone knows what to do but this doesn't mean very much unless you are playing in one of these groups. In my experience killers losing to solo queue teams usually just comes down to killer incompetence. The kind of people who refuse to break god pallets or hard commit to the one guy with 7000 hours.
7 -
The last time they put out stats about this back in 2019 half of all survs were in at least a two-man SWF, with trios and quads far far less common.
With Solo Queue just so delightful since then, I'd imagine the numbers in SWF must have risen. We could really use updated stats though.
6 -
I have trouble deciding on which side you are on. Since you are naming dead perks.
5 -
DbD was never and probably will never be balanced around SWF. Solos have been brought closer to SWF than ever. Only thing that could put it even would be ingame voice chat. But the community is fighting that idea with a burning passion.
Biggest issue survivors have right now are other survivors. Or lets say, their short temper and willingness to leave the match early, whenever something doesn´t go their way. Apart from that, solo is in the best spot ever. As you mentioned, the HUD is a very big thing, if survivors know how to read it.
8 -
Let's see. We have a new HUD, base kit BT, Windows of Opportunity, Deja Vu, most killer meta perks nerfed, specifically Overcharge, a bunch of endurance effects on random perks, a lot of hand holding against recent killers like particle effects on bio pods and the Knight's orb, no more hook grabs and an anti-camping mechanic on the horizon.
It's the opposite. You have perks that literally tell you how to play the game as survivor. An experienced SWF doesn't need that. These are all things that cater to the baby Meg that uses her Sprint Burst to run into the nearest wall.
In short: BHVR are trying to balance around very inexperienced survivors.
4 -
They currently balance for a very, very low skill solo queue survivor group. Which is why at higher mmr its completely a mess and we have all the balance issues that we do.
People also vastly exaggerate the amount of full solo queue groups. There are way more swf groups than people act like, especially at higher mmr. Like 20% of my matches are actually full on solo queue groups and that’s being generous, aka the minority. Even just having duos makes a world of a difference. The difference between me being solo and bringing my one bud is like a 30% increased win rate at least.
9 -
I'm sorry in what world Pain Resonance and Dead Lock which are the strongest perks in the game for Killer dead
4 -
Let's see,Medkits nerfed,addons gutted,individual survivilability perks like DS gutted,while bodyblock team perks like OTR buffed,COH being altruistic only,all modern killer designs requiring tons of survivor coodrination...
Yeah I don't think so bud. Like 60% of things you mentioned also help SWF more than solos.
3 -
The short temper you're describing is what in my opinion happens when you buff Killers versus solos while leaving their efficacy vs SWF unchanged.
2 -
Corrupt? BBQ? NOED??
Come one please...
4 -
Wouldn´t that advocate for SWF nerfs?
But then again, no one should be punished for playing with friends.
0 -
No,that should advocate for solo buffs because punishing people for just wanting to play with a friend is silly. They should buff the hell out of solo first
1 -
BBQ is the least strong perk out of the bunch.
If you dont see the efficacy of NOED,then you probably never used the perk to snowball.
Corrupt is still an S tier perk,fym.
2 -
*looks at basekit BT, HUD and MfT*
Uhhh...
7 -
NOED snowballed? when survivors see its aura? Yeah... so stronk.
Corrupt S tier? A perk that instantly and permanently deactivates when someone kisses the floor? With Plot Twist in the game?
Yeah thx for the discussion. Have a good day.
9 -
- Dead lock is pretty decent, i'll give you that, but its not controllable. All it does is slow down the "gen rush"
- Pain res is okish, but you get 4 uses out of it if you don't tunnel, and it knocks off 22.5 seconds off a gen at most for each token. For context, a commodious toolbox knocks off 26 seconds off a gen and pain res is the highest burst gen regression in the game. So even pain res, which can only be used 4 times, is less powerful than a toolbox, that can be used multiple times with other perks.
- Corrupt has been mostly gutted because of a down removing it. The reality is that first down is hard to get regardless, and even with corrupt you'll likely still lose 2 gens in the first chase.
- Gift of pain is a joke, it can be countered by forcing the killer to hit you and on top of that it forces you to not tunnel to get value (hint: at high levels you have to at least mildly tunnel to win)
- Jolt is a joke, at BEST its going to hit 3 gens and knock off 7.2 seconds on each one, in reality its probably only going to consistently hit 1 maybe 2 gens if you are lucky.
- Floods of rage is an aura perk which is countered by the now-meta distortion
- BBQ is an aura perk, and you can actually counter it pretty well by hiding your aura behind a gen if you know where the killer is.
- NOED is a joke, you spend the whole game with 3 perks, to guarantee a single down (not necessarily a kill depending on cleansing). Purely RNG based where the totem spawns if it gives you any actual value. And there's no point in using it over something like NWO which is much better value and game delay.
Gen regression has been nerfed to uselessness now. Keep in mind, and this something i think survivors don't realize, the amount of time it takes to pick up a survivor and hook them. Like, forget the chase aspect, and the cooldowns and all that. But lets just look at the time to hook them.
2.7 seconds wipe animation
3 second pickup animation
~8 seconds to walk to a hook (about half the wiggle bar)
1.5 second hooking animation
So just hooking a survivor takes a full 2.7 + 3 + 8 + 1.5 = 15.2 seconds. 3 other survivors working on gens, means you finish half a gen between the 3 of you, just picking a survivor up. Again, not factoring in anything else, not even the chase itself (which at minimum should last around 30-40 seconds). This doesn't factor in that half the time the survivor that is downed teleports a few meters away for some random reason so it takes a couple extra seconds where you "fiddle" with picking them up. It doesn't factor in looking around for other survivors to deal with potential flashlights or pallet saves.
And you wonder why it is so frustrating to see these gen defense perks gutted? The only one that actually gives you BACK value from a hook is pain res, and that only works 4 times. This is why slugging and tunneling is the norm now, because you literally do not have time to pick up a survivor and hook them against an efficient team.
That's not to say all hope is lost, it is clear BHVR is trying to move us to a more chase oriented meta. With nerfs to healing, buffs to coup and things like trail of torment and the new singularity perks. It is obvious that is the direction they are pushing. Which i personally think is good. But they really need to stop being lazy and not do it with perks. IMO. Make tunneling IMPOSSIBLE. Make camping IMPOSSIBLE (not punished via a stupid abusable mechanic by SWF, i mean literally IMPOSSIBLE) and balance the gen speeds around getting lots of hooks and chases (and not kills) and the game will be so much more fun for everyone.
4 -
0
-
balancing for, in this case, means "balancing with that demographic's skill level in mind," rather than "balancing in order to appease"
in the case of CoH, they observed "this particular tool was far too powerful for casual solo survivor players and gave them an absolutely crushing, massive advantage. we need to make it so it isn't so blatantly overpowered in even their inexperienced hands"
3 -
Didn’t they put out stats on this last year (2022)? Like in October?
0 -
About the playerbase breakdown? Who's in SWF or solo? Dud I miss that?
I thought that one was about escape rates and usages.
0 -
No they also put out numbers about SWF. It was like 56+ % of survivors were solo, like 4-5% were a 4-man SWF, I think like 40-something % were duo and whatever is left from this was 3-man. But I remember clearly that 3-4 man were most uncommon and solo queue was most common survivor breakdown. And Peanits later, in an unrelated post, confirmed that 4-man SWFs were pretty rare and they see most survivors play solo, with duo just behind that.
3 -
True that's exactly what they should do but no one wants to hear it, make tunneling/camping impossible or very punishing but nerf gen speed heavily... toolboxes and gen perks. There is no other way to make the game more chase based, more about hooks and less about securing quick kills
0 -
Its rather funny how survs expect the devs to close the gap between solo and swf, (without adding comms ofc*) when the only differences between solo and swf are player behavior and comms.
*sacastically, one could argue that once its part of the game it might become a reason to "slightly adjust" survivors.
2 -
That's what i don't understand about this community. The survivor mains complain about camping and tunneling, and whenever anyone points out how terrible it actually is for killers going against efficient teams its "but the average survivor can't do that". Which doesn't matter. You also don't make changes in a vacuum, you can change A and also change B at the same time. With all the complaining i'm surprised people don't realize that this game would be more fun if they didn't balance for kills, but instead balanced for chases, and made camping and tunneling impossible. It's what everyone generally wants.
1 -
It's impossible to be objective if you're playing only 1 side I would guess ? Don't get me wrong I think you're 100% right but I don't think bhvr can pull it off, it's a complete overhaul.. from what I've seen they struggle with basic things
we'll see PTB for anti camp mechanic but I'm positive that it will be a disaster, they'll probably scrap it like anti slug ptb last time
1 -
Yeah, and the reasoning against it is also rather funny. Our community fears that they could get flamed over voice. When there is little difference to the flaming in after match chat/profile spam.
Now its just a matter of how (in)mature our community is and how willing they are to adjust their behavior to the better. Recently BattleBit showed that a community can have ingame voice chat without toxic behavior. So its definetly possible.
1 -
Faster games being prioritized over Matchmaking was because Killer was in a bad spot prior to 6.1.0
10 minute queues were the norm. BHVR realized there were insufficient Killers in each matchmaking range to meet Survivor demand and buffed Killer, added BP incentives, expanded the matchmaking range in lieu of this.
In order for matchmaking to be reverted to be much more strict, the Killer population will have to meet a certain threshold consistently.
My guess is that this threshold has not being achieved consistently yet, thus the status quo will continue. Nerfing Killers till the point that even a bunch of uncoordinated Solo Queue casual players can mount a comeback against casual Killers is more likely to dissuade players from playing Killer.
When 10 min Survivor Queues even with Killer BP incentives become consistent, BHVR will have to do something akin to 6.1.0 again as damage control.
I see people complaining about being camped, tunneled or slugged now, but more than a year ago, people were ok with this because it meant that they were at least able to get a game.
1 -
People have never been okay with being camped or tunneled, that is a lie. And survivor queue times have also been extremely slow (patch 6.1.0) which by your logic is why there were buffs to that role.
3 -
They did balance to favour killers not skill
2 -
A little bit like 6.1.0 innit LOL
0 -
Are you trying to make the argument that efficient SWF/Coordinated teams are as big and prominent of an issue as tunneling and camping? I only ever hear really salty people who say they go against 5 trillion MMR SWFs most of their game and it's usually when they're bad.
2 -
I'm going to leave otz here to explain this for me, because he does it far better than i can.
0 -
I'm not saying that the issue is to be left alone. I'm saying one is more important because it happens 99% of the time instead of 1% of the time.
Your complaint of the community not talking about more about the extremely rare issue vs an extremely common issue is silly. Should it be touched? Yeah,obviously. Are there matters far more pressing than one match in a few hundred where there's an actual optimal SWF? Yeah,obviously.
Post edited by averagemikaelamain on0 -
POPGTW is very good. Lately I've used it along with Pain Res + Agi. Agi not only lets me reach resonance but gives me good/better positioning. I can't tell you the amount of time survivors spend trying to complete a gen sometimes after I pain res and POP it constantly.
Also don't forget No Way Out. Honourable mention includes STBFL and perk combos like Ruin + Undying + Pentimento can be good on killers that can pressure well.
To add, the Eruption nerf was good. Yes, SWF can still call out whenever they're about to get hit to avoid the aura reading aspect of the perk, but it's in a much better spot than before in terms of SWF vs solo queue.
2 -
Eruption is still strong and frankly I dont like it. The aura part should go and the regression should go up slightly. The aura part is unhelpful for weaker killers but strong mobility killers go brr with it. Pop slays,yeah,I completely blanked on it tbh.
0
