can we agree Wraith is one of the most boring killers to face?
I kid you not Wraith is probably my least favourite killer to face besides spirit (for her it’s due to accessibility issue’s).
Wraith is the exact same every match, always bring the strongest add-ons (either silent bell, faster uncloak or faster kick during cloak), cause he’s pathetic without them. Always cloak after hit, matches drag on for a while because of hit and run.
most wraith players I meet tunnel aswell because their character so bad they’re forced to play like that or they just get gen rushed.
can we pls do smth with Wraith (and a few of the older/outdated killers) after ur done solving/reworking Twins and Merchant? Because he’s just a less interesting and fun to face Sadako atm.
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he is better than nurse
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I feel like you don't know how many addons you just complained about. He has several tiers of addons that do the same thing but with varying degrees. Wraith is also a stealth killer, so it's pretty understandable he would focus on surprise attacks as much as possible.
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depends on his ping, if ping is bad, he''s bad to face, if ping is good, nothing really annoying and difficult.
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Hit and run IMO is one of the most boring things to face. This includes any killer that can do so well, but Wraith is prob the best at it. I don't like vsing ghostface on lerys or even 'spooky' myers for the same reason.
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oh I’m very aware of the amount of add-ons I complained about. He honestly needs an add-on pass because of how many overlapping things he has.
yes, stealth killers focus on surprise attacks, nothing against it. My point is because of how painfully his power is designed, every match against him feels the same because his power only rewards a very specific playstyle while other stealth killers can be rewarded in different manners or do other things.
he honestly needs a mini rework.
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the fact I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not help-
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Wraith is in a good spot. But I'd like to see his kick addon (to a weaker extent) be made base and then nerf the add-ons slightly (so that the purple shadow dance would be the same strength) wraith has counterplay and if you're attentive and have game sense you know what his points of interest are (which Gens he's likely to patrol after a hook, where he last seen survs, etc) which allows you to pre leave to tiles. Wraith is pretty bad in chase. He's loopable like any other M1 just have to be mindful of his post cloak speed. If he has shadow dance drop pallet and slow vault it and keep vaulting until he fully uncloaks or at the very least wastes more of his time.
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this FR, we need more encouragement for killers to stay in chase, hit and run is extremely boring.
this would be difficult to do without just outright giving killers chasing buffs (which ngl wouldn’t be good).
but, i think what they could do is make all gen regression in the game based on downs and hooks and just a little stronger. But that’s still not perfect so dunno.
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i didn’t say he was OP by any stretch. He’s just so dry and boring to play against because it’s the same every match against him.
part of the reason he is boring is because he is on the weaker side but outright buffing him would also lead to issue because his power is terribly designed.
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Ngl I love facing Wraith. Hit and run doesn’t bother me.
I will say however, his addon that applies Hemorrhage and Mangled should be changed to only apply Mangled considering how easy it is to apply. You should have to bring Sloppy Butcher if you want both.
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this tbh. thank GOD i rarely see hit and run wraith anymore. either lots of them quit doing it or i've been getting lucky matchmaking, either way i feel blessed.
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I agree. They all run sloppy butcher these days and do the hit and run thing. Very dull.
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I disagree. His rework is the best example of a rework done right. All his add-ons have their own uses. He's strong enough to win games if you know what you're doing and use proper slow down. And I don't think he's boring either I actually find him really fun to go against. People complain about tunneling with any killer but the way I look at it if you're being tunneled If you are better in chase than the killer you can waste so much of their time they just lose chasing you which is a win for you. Chasing is also one of the funnest parts of the game. The hit and run playstyle with wraith has been heavily buffed ever since the sloppy butcher buff and healing changes. But it's not impossible to counterplay Like I said earlier with good positioning and game awareness.
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People will die on the hill that he's interesting but in truth he's a baby tier killer with 2 dimensional gameplay (intended as he's for beginners) with one of the most boring gameplay patterns (hit and run.)
I'm happy everytime I don't have to see him.
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What about other killers with addons that do mostly the same, then? This used to be a pretty common thing. A few useful effects with different numbers. Recently they haven't done that anymore but looking at older killers that haven't had an addon pass over last 2 years you find multiple examples of this design philosophy. From the top of my head I can think of Myers, Doctor, Wraith, Freddy, Hag, Spirit and Pyramid Head.
Personally, I don't like playing against Wraith either but that is definitely a "me" issue. There are a lot of people who like him or at least don't mind playing against him.
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ok, hope all your next games will be filled funny camp bubba and 3gen SM
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I'll take all the SM, Weskers, Knights even being camped by a Bubba. But give me a Wraith and I probably let out the biggest sigh.
I don't even find playing him all that engaging either.
They also removed Lightburn so the little bit of interaction you once could make is gone. At least that part was interesting.
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chases are the most fun part yet Wraith is one of the most anti-chasing gameplay characters in the game.
Hit and Run makes the game stale.
people will tunnel no matter what, no matter if the survivors is bad or good. with Wraith it’s just so much more abnoxious because he can just follow you in stealth and wait out the timer.
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tbh, I feel like a beginner killer should have a power that encourages chasing and learning it and not disincourage it.
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you guys are playing against wraith? those still exist?
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The only reason I'd kinda agree Wraiths are a pain to go against is because after Bubba I feel like Wraith players camp the most but that's gonna be fixed within the next few months or so.
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At least wraith keeps me looking over my shoulder and engaged. Most m1 killers are bound to the opportunity for the most boring interaction possible; pre-drop pallet then rinse and repeat. No danger there unless I make the mistakes.
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Not really simply because the idea of "its boring" doesn't stack up as a reason for change.
"Boring" is about the worst qualifier to justify something changing in game. Why? well its completely subjective and because Wraith mechanically chases, hits and downs survivors like pretty much any other killer has to, then the entire game must be boring for him to be boring while doing it.
Apparently hit and run tactics are boring now too,
So lets re-cap on boring according to the forums in general,
- Camping is boring
- Tunneling is boring
- 3 -gens are boring
- Hit and run is boring
- Most killer powers are boring
- Addons are boring
That covers just about everything gameplay wise, I think its time for all these bored players to find another game. All the fruitless complaining about boredom is getting... well... boring.
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If they nerfed sloppy he wouldn't be annoying.
It boggles my mind how everyone thinks sloppy after healing nerfs is fine, but then again this forum is killer biased again.
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Absolutely I give out such a depressed sigh when it's wraith, he's literally ding dong free hit unless ur next to a god pallet
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i like bubbas and if they catch me and camp that's fine. if i die fast enough to lose the game for the other survivors, its prob because I played bad by greeding 👍️
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The reason he's become so annoying is one of the most reliable counters against him is to remain healthy as much as possible. And with the nerfs to healing, he's pretty strong right now in the meta. Bringing the best medkit with charge add ons may help, and just keep it for yourself.
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He's more fun to verse than like a quarter of the roster so.
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When they just patrol 3 gens with overcharge and don't commit to any chase it's very boring yeah, they all play sloppy-noed and camp too it's a funny meme but true
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hes okay tbh
removing lightburn was a mistake tho
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He might be one of the most boring, but Legion is THE most boring
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The only thing I don't like about him is how he can, and most do, body block you. He shouldn't have collision when cloaked.
In general, Nurse, Dredge, Spirit, Cenobite and skull merchant are all way more unpleasant.
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I wouldnt say that wraith is bad , more like people dont like using the power as a chase tool and they rely on HIT AND RUN to end chases which gets countered easily by bringing strong medkits / perks and forcing pre-pallet drops (playing boring).
yeah against solo Q hit and run is waay more strong but against a decent teams of solos and a SWF , that playstile is gonna make you lose the match.
wraith its fun IMO? I dunno really , the killer can be miserable on indoor maps against a team of solos but other than that..mm
about tunneling , it seems like every NEMI , SPIRIT, WRAITH , BLIGHT , WESKER , NURSE , enjoy doing that at 5/4 gens which is funny.
SADAKO more fun than wraith? maybe to play as but not against , slug fest on sadako is just horrible.
also removing his lightborn mechanic instead of just making a burn cooldown was a total failure from BHVRs part.
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“Camping is boring”
-Yes it is, it’s dull and uninteractive
“Tunneling is boring”
-Not as bad as camping, at least it’s somewhat interactive, but yes for the most part, it is dull and playing the game on easy mode.
“3 genning is boring”
-This is probably the most widely agreed upon boring play style in the game. It is absolutely brain dead when they choose to hold it from the start of the game.
“Hit and run is boring”
-This is absolutely boring for me, chases are the best part of playing survivor and you never get chased when playing against this.
“Most killer powers are boring”
-I wouldn’t say most but there are definitely a good amount that are super boring to play against (Skull Merchant, Knight, Freddy, Wraith, Clown, etc.)
“Addons are boring”
-There are definitely some that are super unfun to play against. Alc ring, blighted crow, and compound for Blight. MDR and duration from Spirit (although just nerfed), Pigs add ons that put you in deep wound when missing a skill check and pair with huntress lullaby because it’s bugged, and plenty others that are rather annoying to face against. Add ons for the most part are fine but some are ridiculously over-tuned.
You call it fruitless complaining, I call it people wanting to see positive change in a game they enjoy.
Edit: Also noticed you mentioned how something being boring isn’t a reason for change but I’d argue against that. People play games for entertainment and an escape from boredom. If you can make the game more fun for both sides they should make that change.
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this community is whiny yes, but how is hit and run not widely considered boring though? Everyone agrees chases are the most fun part right?
i don’t think a single person wants a hit and run meta to exist. Otherwise we‘ll get an even worse 3 gen meta with everyone just healing for half the match (although considering how long COH existed, I’m not surprised people will be okay with that).
i don’t even hate that many killers. There’s only like 5 killers I even partly dislike and spirit is the only killer I think needs to just be eradicated from existence (because why the ######### would they make such an accessibility nightmare).
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Its not really an itemized list just that the concept of calling everything boring all the time is counter productive to one's own enjoyment. But you do you.
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"i don’t think a single person wants a hit and run meta to exist." I do... so it kills that assumption. Some killers build well for it.
Supposed absolutes also make bad arguments and rationale for game changes.
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That's basically the best (and only) thing his power can do for chases though. Taking that away removes the 1 thing for chases that separates him from a trapless trapper.
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People's likes and dislikes vary. That includes people who like longer chases and people who prefer hit and run tactics. That's also why we have a variety when it comes to killers. People playing Trapper or Hag for example obviously don't care to run jungle gyms and such. Ghostface's most popular addons on release were his cooldown addons for the sake of hit and run. People LIKED pairing it together with perks like Nurses calling.
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Let me ask you a better question.
What killers do you LIKE going against?
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You underestimate how many contrarians lurk around these parts.
People will literally jump to the defense of anything as long as its part of their team. The same people defending hit and run will defend anything, and they also defended the Eruption/Gen-Kick meta.
They'll lazily use the subjectivity/hivemind argument which completely shuts down any discussion, so there's no real use arguing.
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He’s not necessarily fun to play against, but I wouldn’t say he’s one of the worst.
Skull Merchant, Hag, Trickster, Sadako, Freddy, and Bubba are all more boring than Wraith.
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As player who plays whatever is in demand (which Mon-Fri basically makes me a killer main in Europe), I'm still surprised Sloppy hasn't been hit yet.
I expected that to get nerfed pretty soon after the healing changes to lose one of the effects.... don't think the perk would be bad if it was just Mangled personally.
Anyway, on topic, I played Wraith after I'd learned the games basics, and found he dumps on newbies... at low MMR hes a bit of a pubstomp....
However a more experienced player with WoO slammed me in the face with pallets repeatedly. I couldn't seem to catch him... now I know I should have been running ahead and body blocking him at key points, but I still never feel like he's overly weak or overly strong.
Simple is not a bad thing... it becomes more about game knowledge if base mechanics are simple... I imagine if you're bored of Wraith, chances are you're kinda getting bored with most elements of the game tbh.
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Ong someone said it
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Hit and Run is a tactic that is encouraged in that it works well with various perks as well as various killers. The devs wouldnt introduce things like thanaphobia or nurses calling if they were against the play style. This isn't even a playstyle unique to stealth killers. Hag for example hits anyone who triggers a trap while Oni only gets blood orbs from injured survivors or putting survivors from healthy to injured.
Not every killer is designed to go on 2 hit chases, and most chase centered killers have been hit with a nerf bat after complaints that they can bypass things a trapless trapper cant. It's really puzzling at this point what killers survivors DO want to face.
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Hit and Run ties actually encourages the Killer to learn to play from a macro perspective because it’s about spreading pressure and not just chasing one person while the other 3 sit on gens interrupted. Since Wraith has Undetectable and Speed addons, he fits this role the best.
The way I see it, the Killer playstyle that Survivors want regardless of Killer design is:
Chase one person, down them, hook them, look for someone else and not go after the unhooked survivor again. Don’t spread multiple injuries and don’t slug/3 gen. It’s a weird mix of wanting Killers to play micro style but not super micro where they just tunnel one person out.
The irony is that if BHVR designed Killers around that playstyle, every Killer would either be a loop denier or ranged/fast moving Killer, which would make Killers stale really fast.
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Just for elaboration, because not knowing certain term definitions can lead to a lot of miscommunications, when the term "hit and run" is used, we're talking about a killer who injures one survivor, then completely disengages with that survivor and searches for another, right?
If that's the case, I'm a little confused why hit and run tactics would be a bad thing. I understand that being injured while up against a stealthy killer is generally not a good spot for the survivor to be in, but isn't that the point of going up against stealth killers? But more importantly, a lot of people view honing in on one survivor to be one of the most frustrating things to experience. Isn't hit and run basically the opposite of tunneling? I understand that switching to the opposite end of a spectrum can be just as bad as where you were originally, that a balance is usually preferred, but I personally don't see it in this light.
I think a lot of people agree that the very start of the game is the most important in deciding a match. Most killers will generally try to down the first person they engage with assuming they're not a Trapper or another killer who needs to set things up for their power to work best. The first hook of the game is what really starts the snowball if there's to be any snowballing that game.
But with the Wraith using a hit and run playstyle, he's actively choosing to delay the first hook in favor of injuring multiple survivors. It's risky given that you ideally want someone on a hook as quickly as possible, but it can work in your favor later in the match. I personally view it as a strategy that has the potential to devastate the survivor team or completely devastate the rest of the match for the killer. When it works, it really works. When it doesn't, it really doesn't.
In my personal opinion, hit and run is only problematic when coupled with regression and other similar perks that basically rewards the playstyle with generators being unable to be completed. But regression perks aren't the terror they used to be, thankfully. Smacking someone off a generator to kick it and go for the next person sitting on a generator to kick that one doesn't ensure a constant rotation of generators regressing beyond repair anymore. It's potentially different for a 3 gen scenario, of course, but that's another topic.
But when hit and run is solely about catching survivors off guard, I don't have a problem with it at all, but there are probably things I'm not taking into consideration that other players would find annoying.
Does anyone mind giving specifics on why hit and run is boring? I'm sort of just assuming it's due to the lack of conventional chases, but I could be wrong. I'd be curious to discuss, if anyone wants. :)
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Yeah, lets pretend those and hit and run are the only options 🧠❌
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It's very weird, everyone's always agreed chase is the most fun part of dbd, like it's basically common knowledge, but all of a sudden when hit and run is brought up it's like that's never been the case :P
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ok, we have a hit and run "boring tactic" that rewards the killer for chasing various survivors
we have tunneling - toxic tactic
we have someone - wow and then the survivors say it's toxic
and we're left with slugging - and again survivors said its a toxic boring tactic
What would you want, for the killer just stand afk ?
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