The game is severely survivor-sided, unless you are playing Nurse, Blight or Spirit.

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BillToLast
BillToLast Member Posts: 73
edited August 2023 in General Discussions

Discuss.

Otzdarva's "No Limit" showcase has demonstrated that unless the killer is playing Nurse/Blight/Spirit with their best addons, the game is extremely survivor sided.

When you do play one of these 3 S-tier killers with most busted addons, the game is actually pretty well balanced.

But if you don't, you are fighting an uphill battle against an enemy that already has the advantage by default.

Conclusion 1: the game is balanced around Blight with Compound 33 and AlcRing. Therefore, these addons are perfectly fair and put the killer on an equal playing field.

Conclusion 2: Nurse is a perfectly balanced killer and has counterplay. Anyone who complains about Nurse being OP is probably low-skill.

Post edited by EQWashu on

Comments

  • rvzrvzrvz
    rvzrvzrvz Member Posts: 940
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    You can do well with most killers I'm playing lot of dredge atm and rarely lose, you're definitely forced to tunnel against gen efficient teams but it's doable, honestly only pure M1 are unplayable against strong teams like Pig, Ghostface, Freddy etc

  • Sadako_Best_Girl
    Sadako_Best_Girl Member Posts: 658
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    I don't care about the opinion of your favorite streamer. The point I am trying to make is that OP is talking as if sweat squads and alch ring blights were the norm for the game when they just aren't. I never said any of them were good for the game, I just think it is a dumb comparison, the game is not balanced around high level play.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,171
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    To be fair, the clip was from the PTB where he was testing stuff out. But i don't disagree with this. Generally these streamers talk about how unbalanced things are, then go right around and start using it. But i don't blame them, if you are playing to win, you should use the most broken stuff.


  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,171
    edited August 2023
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    You aren't aware of how matchmaking works i assume then? Matchmaking caps MMR for matchmaking purposes (although MMR can go above the cap). Last is saw people found out that MMR caps at 1400 for matchmaking purposes.


    While i don't doubt that otz is probably in the 2k MMR range, that doesn't mean he only plays against people with 2k MMR. for matchmaking purposes, it puts him at 1400 MMR. So he can play one match with all 2k MMR players, and then the next match he gets matched against a bunch of 1401 MMR players, they are treated the same. The reason for this is because there are so few players at that high MMR, that the matches would literally take like 30+ minutes to find a game. So they cap it.


    For context, for those who are interested in Elo calculations (Which MMR is just a derivation on the Elo system that chess uses). It works by mathematically calculating the probability of a player winning based on their rank, and the opponents rank. So in theory if all players were equal, you have a 50% chance of winning. But assuming 2k MMR against a 1400 MMR? The 2k MMR player (mathematically speaking) has a probability of 98.2% chance of winning.

    So yeah, i don't doubt that otz is super high MMR, but that doesn't mean he's only playing against good players.


    And on the survivor side, this works against him as well. If he is a 2k survivor, he could be matched with 1400 mmr teammates, which drastically changes the outcome of the game as survivor is more of a team based role. You'll see this difference when he plays with hens and ayrun where they just bully the killer endlessly vs when he plays solo queue.

  • bearr_trap
    bearr_trap Member Posts: 120
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    I watch two streamers and they are more memey streamers than anything, I like what I like lol.

    I don't watch loaded down streamers like Otz for the sake of keeping my own opinion my own. I don't need to adopt someone else's opinion -- especially if their experience is COMPLETELY different than my own.

  • Shroompy
    Shroompy Member Posts: 6,302
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    Teams running MfT and Resi while being gen efficient doesnt make them a comp squad

    Its like saying any Blight, Nurse or Spirit running full meta perks is a comp killer

  • BillToLast
    BillToLast Member Posts: 73
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    Clarification that I need to make. You can still win most of your games as killer, but only for 1 simple reason:

    Most survivor players in the game are low skill or have mixed priorities. And if you go up against a soloQ team, there is a 4x higher chance that at least one of them will be low skill.

    Hens333 said that what makes an SWF team strong is not communication/discord. It's the fact that you have 4 good players with the winning mindset on the same team.

    If all 4 survivors are as equally good as the killer, and the latter is not playing Nurse/Blight/Spirit with best addons, the survivors will have the win given to them for free.

    The reason killers win most of their matches and can get good winstreaks is because most survivor teams are inefficient on generators. They will do dull totems, complete their glyph challenges, mess around and still have a chance to succeed.

    I've had matches where I sacrificed all 4 survivors at 5 gens as Ghostface (without tunneling/camping), because they were not doing generators.

    I've had matches that I lost as the Nurse despite getting a hook stage every 20 seconds, simply because the survivors were very gen efficient on a very large map.

    Survivor gen efficiency determines the outcome of the match, and *good* survivors are almost guaranteed to win by default against anyone but the trio.

  • BillToLast
    BillToLast Member Posts: 73
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    As an example, let's say you're playing Huntress with her best addons and a meta build against the survivors who also brought the strongest stuff they can, with the best toolboxes and meta builds on everyone.

    Huntress is considered a very strong character and both teams have brought the best stuff they can.

    Yet, if the survivors are of the same skill as you, you are practically guaranteed to lose in this situation. Unless they make huge mistakes, you probably won't even get 2 kills, if any at all.

    In Community Cups sponsored by BHVR, survivors had very restricted loadouts: no matching perks, no matching skins, no matching items and only up to yellow quality.

    Whoever makes the rules of the tournaments recognizes that the game is very survivor sided and requires placing restrictions on the survivors. And yet, survivors still win vast majority of tournament matches (with 3+ people escaping).

  • Alice_pbg
    Alice_pbg Member Posts: 6,556
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    Had to look it up cause I was on a break at the time... the perk was ######### busted on ptb.

    It needed a nerf

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 2,354
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    Ayrun, Naymeti, Hens, and more… there are many players who are knowledgeable to a similar degree as Otzdarva on the mechanics of this game. Some of them have opinions in line with Otz’s, some don’t.

  • Alice_pbg
    Alice_pbg Member Posts: 6,556
    edited August 2023
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    Ok... does that mean that whatever they say is wrong by default?


    Kinda silly to blindly disagree with anyone without actually hearing what the point is.


    Edit- making it clear, I don't mean you in particular with what I said.

  • Shroompy
    Shroompy Member Posts: 6,302
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  • Kaitsja
    Kaitsja Member Posts: 1,741
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    I like Otz, and I like his content. But I take his opinions with a grain of salt. I like Tru3 and his content, but I take his opinions with a grain of salt. Just because somebody is good at the game, doesn't necessarily mean they know what's best for the game.

    Maps are gradually being worked on to be fairer towards both sides, which is great since maps are one of the biggest contributers towards the game being x-sided.

    Overall, the game doesn't favor either side. At low MMR, it favors the killer. At mid MMR, it comes down to whichever side is more skilled. At high MMR, it favors survivors. If the game were to be balanced around high MMR, lesser skilled players would be expected to play perfectly in order to get a win and would likely lose more than they win.

  • Volcz
    Volcz Member Posts: 1,126
    edited August 2023
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    Slightly true. Its survivor sided for the most part when it comes to the competitive scene, ie teams of people in comms and playing for efficiency/value, ignoring mistakes.

    But in regards to PUGs, public matches that brings together all sorts of players -

    • trolls/people who just want to mess around
    • serious gamers who want to win
    • noobs/new to the game/bad in chase
    • people who D/C or kill themselves for the slightest inconvenience
    • and more

    No, the public/casual scene is killer sided.

    This game is not competitive, it will never be competitive and since solo que is the majority, you'll find yourself coming across a lot of players who have clearly different agendas/mindsets from you.

    There are players who play killers beside the ones you mentioned, that haven't lost in MONTHS.

    If you are having a problem in public matches as a killer, its entirely your fault. Too many people have self inflated egos, egos they really shouldn't have because they aren't that good.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,438
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    That doesn't make those players good though. Genuinely good teams are rare and genuinely good standalone survivors are incredibly rare.

    This concept is mistaken unless your definition of solo queue is anything less than a 3-man swf. You are far more likely to run into atleast a duo queue than a true 4 man solo queue. I have no other comment on anything else you said but 4 man solo queue is less likely than not.

  • Volcz
    Volcz Member Posts: 1,126
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    I agree, duo is far more likely than a 4 man solo. But I do know BHVR has also said that solo que is the majority of the playerbase before, so I always just took that as 4 strangers in a match together.

    Even with the likelihood of duos though, you still have to account for 2 other teammates you have no knowledge of how they play, what their experience is, etc.

    Public matches are just a giant gamble when it comes to quality of teammates, honestly.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,438
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    Don't get me wrong, public is a huge gamble as you said. I can't get through 2 killer games without huge inequality in matchmaking. But even 4 years ago they released stats on duo queue and up being majority of the playerbase. This game is hard to get into on your own so the only assumption is that solo queue in total has become far less common.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,642
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    I don't like that streamers and you tubers have the most impactful opinions on the games balance sometimes.

    If some popular streamers make their lists of feedback and videos about Ptb changes or other stuff, it feels like their feedback has more weight to it than the passionate Players writing here at the forums ( case and point : Sadako)

    I also grown to dislike that every strong thing gets to be showcased in dozens of videos only to be used immediately in every match from the second onward.

    Back then, people had to discover interesting builds and stuff....

    Now it's just : look up the video.

    Outcome is, that everyone has to deal with the same stuff over and over again because content creator x, y has told them that it's overpowered.

  • VirtuaTyKing
    VirtuaTyKing Member Posts: 452
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    Na I've have a lot of fun lately. Bad players on your team is the issue not that they are a swf or not.

  • Nash
    Nash Member Posts: 24
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    The game is survivor sided with the survivor team don't make any obvious mistake versing a god tier certain killer player, by saying that whether being a god tier towards a certain killer or playing as survivor without any missplay are both difficult and time consuming to learn however survivor is most likely the easier role compared to killer as survivor is strong in basekit compared to the majority of killers existing.

    Solo queue is painful because most of the time teammates are very poor in looping skill and game sense, I have some friends who play for the comp scene can still enjoy the game in solo queue because they primarily focus on chases or altruistic play other than escaping. SWF is strong because mostly it is formed by 4 good survivors.

    If you are enough good at killer, you will still enjoy the game and win most of your games as most players are casual and not always play optimally. Personally I don't mind versing swf other than MFT squad because even I lose I can still learn from my failure and improve from it.

  • HauntedKnight
    HauntedKnight Member Posts: 385
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    The pattern is obvious at this point. If you say the game is survivor sided you will get hate across DBD social media.

    The only really outlandish thing Tru3 has ever said is that SWF’s should face an action debuff. No-one should really think that playing with friends should mean you get punished.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,642
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    I watch different streamers from time to time. I dont like the opinions of most of them...

    Yes. At the highest lever (predrop + coordinated gen-efficiency) this game is survivor sided.

    Do you meet these groups in your public lobbies?

    Very, very rarely. I've had some of them and the game feels very one sided at that point if your not prepared to stand a chance.

    However...

    Even these are beatable. Survivors and especially these types of teams can fall like a house of cards.

    If you play your cards perfectly and they make mistakes, as small as they may be, you CAN beat them. Not saying you will.

    Most of the time it sadly involves camping, slugging, tunneling or a healthy dose of basement.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 7,353
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    would you like them to give huntress instant wind-up hatchets or buff iri head? that might make her viable against that level.

  • Marc_go_solo
    Marc_go_solo Member Posts: 4,974
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    This is only true under a niche area within the game, with a powerful swf. This is not representative of the entire playerbase at all.

    Were this to be true of the game, then every killer other than those you mentioned should be losing nearly every game. This is completely inaccurate, especially considering there are successive win streaks for every killer around. There is also strong evidence in the kill rates BHVR provided a while back, covering both the general playerbase and the top 5%. Taking into account matchmaking and such, there are too many pieces of evidence to prove the contrary.

    In summary, this statement of the game as a whole is absolutely false. This is purely for competition level gameplay and even then I'm sure killers have won with other killers than the ones you mentioned.

  • sulaiman
    sulaiman Member Posts: 3,215
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    Tell me, did the No Limit -showcase involved matches with 4 random solo survivors? Because that is - as far as i know - still the majority of players. Or did it envolve high level swf?

    The thing a lot of people dont understand is that swf and solo are 2 completly different experiences, and you cant balance the game around both. But instead of acting on that, the devs just try to balance killer in the middle between those 2 extremes, so i would agree that the game is swf-sided. But against average solo survivors? I dont think the game is in their favor.

  • I_CAME
    I_CAME Member Posts: 1,162
    edited August 2023
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    Bam there it is. You just acknowledged why DBD is not survivor sided and never will be. Killers who struggle to win consistently against randoms are just bad at the game. If killers were playing against Team Oracle every game then they'd have a real argument about DBD being survivor sided. 4 man SWF in particular is only like 3 percent of survivors to begin with. How many of them do you really think are esports caliber players? Every scenario about the game being survivor sided is hypothetical and does not reflect a typical match. "WELL IF YOU PLAY AGAINST FOUR SURVIVORS WHO ALL HAVE TEN THOUSAND HOURS AND MAKE NO MISTAKES THEN THE GAME IS SURVIVOR SIDED!"

    also since we're talking about Otz : Otz said flat out on stream a month ago that the game is slightly killer sided for this very reason. He has also put out recent videos saying that the game does not actually massively favor either side and any advantages are very slight. People who genuinely believe that DBD is massively survivor sided are coping HARD.

  • BillToLast
    BillToLast Member Posts: 73
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    "He has also put out recent videos saying that the game does not actually massively favor either side and any advantages are very slight"

    Otz uses Blight with Compound 33 and the Nurse as examples there, which is literally what I'm saying. He specifically said that the game is fairly balanced when you play high tier killers (which everyone always asks to be nerfed).

    If you play any killers weaker than Spirit/Wesker, the game is severely survivor sided, period. Just because most survivors are trash at the game doesn't mean they don't have inherent advantage.

    You could make generators take 30 seconds to repair and give survivors 10 hook stages each, and the kill rates would still be above 50% thanks to dumb soloQ teammates. Weak solo teams are not indicative of the balance of the game.

    Try playing Ghostface with his best addons and a meta perk build and go up against 4 survivors *of the same skill as you*, who all bring commodious toolboxes with extra charges and full meta builds. Unless they mess up majorly, you will lose and there is nothing you can do.

    If you are playing Blight/Nurse/Spirit, then you have a fair chance against any team, even the ones that go full meta. And yet people always ask for these balanced killers to be nerfed. My argument is that the game is survivor sided unless you play the trio.

  • BillToLast
    BillToLast Member Posts: 73
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    Majority of killers don't play Blight or Nurse, your point?

  • HauntedKnight
    HauntedKnight Member Posts: 385
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    Wait so if the average killer player struggles against survivors it’s because they’re bad? But if the “casual” survivor player gets beat it’s because the game is killer sided?

  • sulaiman
    sulaiman Member Posts: 3,215
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    IF you dont have the ability to extract my point of view from my posting, i think this discussion is void. I am not a native speaker, but i dont think i can explain a complex topic in simpler words you might better understand.

  • stvnhthr
    stvnhthr Member Posts: 777
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    Ignorant post. The game is designed to be killer sided. Solo survivor is near impossible. The only time it is evenly matched is with a four man cooperative team. The game used to try to balance for solo que, now the developers only consider team play. It is a really terribly one sided game in the killers favor. Watch streams of the top survivor players, no one is getting out like they used to.

  • BillToLast
    BillToLast Member Posts: 73
    edited August 2023
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    I watched the official community cups, and the survivors still won most of the games despite having heavy restrictions (no matching perks or items). Even against strong killers, like Nurse or Blight. So if anything, tournaments prove that the game is even more survivor-sided than normally perceived.

    I win about 50% of my soloQ matches despite always running meme builds with Head On or Dramaturgy.

  • Shroompy
    Shroompy Member Posts: 6,302
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    That the caliber of Survivors in a normal pubs doesnt even compare

  • biggybiggybiggens
    biggybiggybiggens Member Posts: 659
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    Still doesn't change the fact that it's a miserable experience and something could be done to change that. It's the devs job to figure out what that is for newer people. Maybe just give debuffs to SWF.

  • EQWashu
    EQWashu Member, Mod Posts: 4,818
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    Closing this thread here. Please remember keep comments civil when posting, and remember that we absolutely do not condone bashing Content Creators whatsoever, per our rule on Naming and Shaming.

This discussion has been closed.