What is the official balance for killers against players using external apps for comms ?

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FreddyVoorhees
FreddyVoorhees Member Posts: 324
edited August 2023 in General Discussions

It is obvious cheating . Did devs give killers something to balance this ? Or should killers be able to use external apps as well to counter this ? Its absolutely fair.

Devs may not know if swf is using chat but nevertheless there should be something to counter this for killers. Some basekit buff that depends on how many players are grouped regardless if they use chat or not. If swf group is not using chat (very rare) they should be fine with killer buffs as nobody is stopping them to use the voice chat in the first place. I mean imagine being carried by the killer and you shout to a person on the other side of the map , the killer will obviously hear you.

Either buffs against groups or at least disclose what external apps killers are allowed to use too.

Post edited by EQWashu on
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Comments

  • MikeStev
    MikeStev Member Posts: 377
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    you think dbd just born yesterday?

    stop thinking this is a competitive game, ok? have some fun

  • playhard
    playhard Member Posts: 279
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    UI design of survivor now very effective doesnt need internal comm for solo player.

    If survivor get chasing there will be a notification on survivor icon .

    Too effective on solo player thats why doesnt need again internal comm.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 271
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    "Using 3rd party software or other tools to gain any kind of unfair advantage that wasn’t intended by the game."

    "We do not ban for the use of communication apps"

    I copied and pasted that from the FAQ. It doesn't say anything about comms being cheating and it also doesn't state that it shouldn't be used while playing the game.

    Ive personally never used it while playing with anyone and if it were built into the game I would turn it off. But that's just because I tend to find it annoying in most games.

  • FreddyVoorhees
    FreddyVoorhees Member Posts: 324
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    So given that most games tend to have swf , you'd say that killers were always balanced against swf (often with comms)? That might show why killers tend to be op against low level players and soloq who have no comms.

    The chat wheel seems to be a brilliant idea as it brings most things swf say on comms to soloq players. Devs should totally add this. You should post that in suggestions/feedback.

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 15,682
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    Always a clear sign that people dont have a clue when they really think that Comms is what makes SWF stronger than Solos.

    Bonus if they actually think using Comms is cheating.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,391
    edited August 2023
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    Not exactly. I'd say that BHVR have adjusted killers and survivors to a point where killers can win against most groups in public games, if they play good enough. That wasn't always the case. Look back a few years and see the horrors of double pallets in tiles, no bloodlust, infinites on a majority of maps, old old DS (the one where killers dribbled survivors to the hook) and so on.

    In low MMR, I believe the killer to genuinely win a lot more because the skill floor for killers in general is lower than that of survivors. When no one knows what is going on, it is quite easy to make a lot of mistakes, that don't just have an effect on you but your entire team. There is only 1 killer per match, so statistically it makes sense that they make less mistakes than the 4 survivors. The higher you go however, the more you'll find survivors not making these mistakes and working together to correct them (even in solo queue).

    That is something that most killers can't really do. If you lost your chance, then you lost your chance and now you have to start all over again to get into that position. I say most killers because some (like Nurse and Blight) have the strength to force situations where the survivor has no right option more frequently than the rest.

    Still, for a group of survivors to reach the level where killers genuinely can't compete anymore (besides the very strongest killers), they need to be extremely good and coordinated. It is possible for people to achieve that without comms but I'd argue it's less consistent and even harder. This is such a high level of play that you mostly don't see it in the average game (maybe every once in a in a blue moon, if you are a high MMR killer). Most players are far more casual. And while you can definitely go against a good group, that has a significant advantage thanks to comms it doesn't mean you can't win against them. It's just going to be a lot harder, if they play their cards right.

    I believe I saw someone else make that exact suggestion about a chat wheel already but perhaps you're right. Another post couldn't hurt.

  • dbdcolonsteamer
    dbdcolonsteamer Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 15
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    All you need is to make the PT team visible in the lobby.

    If Killer accept it and start matching, you cannot criticize using external apps for communications.

     If you don't like it, leave and find a new match.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 2,353
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    Per Peanits, the majority of trials are made up of solo queue (56%), duos make up approximately 40%.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,292
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    I don't know any game where talking with friends is considered cheating neither is that on dbd.

  • biggybiggybiggens
    biggybiggybiggens Member Posts: 659
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    When DBD was first made, it wasn't made with the idea of all 4 people being able to team up 'vocally' in mind... It just became a feature later on. SWF is a huge advantage over Solo so I'd like to see some sort of disadvantage down the line even if its minor.

  • Xxjwaynexx
    Xxjwaynexx Member Posts: 289
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    I mean a good swf is rough to deal with but they aren't op. I've come to understand that sometimes people just outplay you, sometimes you make mistakes and you cook yourself. Swf is at the heart of dbd and isn't going anywhere and isn't cheating, most of them bait you into to playing their game and 90 percent fall into it and proceed to get cooked. You gotta think of swf as being the best test of your skill and not like this unsurmountable thing. If you lose and it bothers you that much record your games learn how they maneuver, where they took you while in chase, how they spilt. Eventually you'll queueing up with no worries what so ever if they have comms are not. Also I'm really not sure what kind of buffs your wanting either. I mean we do get to see prestige level items and characters which doesn't sound like much but really is. I know if I see Claude with a med kit she'll probably have a healing build with self care and be hiding in corners all match, Meg with a flashy SB or lithe with some bully perks just some examples lol.

  • biggybiggybiggens
    biggybiggybiggens Member Posts: 659
    edited August 2023
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    Might've been planned from the start, but it goes without saying the game wasn't made for team with mics. Of course it was planned. Why wouldn't they make that very obvious choice to let you play with friends.. Was the game balanced around it though. No. It wasn't. Hence the (balanced) game wasn't made with SWF in mind.

  • M1_gamer
    M1_gamer Member Posts: 341
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    lol only in dbd playing with your friends and having a fun vc is considered cheating.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,391
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    Is that so? Then, I apologise for spreading misinformation. Thank you for correcting me on that.

  • Aven_Fallen
    Aven_Fallen Member Posts: 15,682
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    Yeah, but the impact of Voice Communication is pretty overrated. Most SWFs dont talk to each other like some Special OPs-Teams or how you may see it in tournaments. Most of the time it is usual communication.

    The main strength of SWFs is that you can filter out the bad players. You reduce the RNG you get with your teammates. E.g. when I play Solo and I get chased, I dont want to see 3 people doing nothing. So I play basically only with a friend and then I know that at least one person will do a Gen while I am being chased.

    Sometimes we play as a 3man-SWF when my friend brings a streamer he knows. That streamer is not in our Discord, mainly because they are streaming. And if this happens, we escape more games. Why? Because he is a really good player. Not because we can talk to each other.

    I can guarantee you, if you put the same 4 people with Voice Communication in a game without Voice Communication, the result will be roughly the same (in regular public matches). Because you dont suddenly forget how to play when you are not in Discord. And the other way around is true as well - someone who is bad will not suddenly turn out godlike when they are in DIscord.

  • FreddyVoorhees
    FreddyVoorhees Member Posts: 324
    edited August 2023
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    It can really optimize survivors when one of them says what the killer is about to do. It gives killer much less chance to surprise them.

    The killer's trap is there , walk around.

    He is using this perk.

    I will save you repair.

    etc. A lot of this cant be done in soloq. Same with strategy, they often decide on comms what they will attempt to do .

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,520
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    "Anything that increases win odds by using external software could be considered "cheating" ."

    You mean like filters?

  • NotAnotherDoctor
    NotAnotherDoctor Member Posts: 290
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    I could join a discord call and put my phone in my pocket and do the dishes.

    Does this mean im cheating at doing the dishes?

    You can't punish people for playing with their friends. If discord didn't exist, people would just playstation parties or Xbox parties

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,575
    edited August 2023
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    Most people will not call it cheating because the devs allow it, however, whether they allow it or not has zero to do with what the actual definition of cheating is.

    Cheating is defined as simply an unfair advantage.

    So, is the game balanced around swf? The answer is no.

    So if it is an advantage that the game is not balanced around, then it is in fact an unfair advantage.

    IE, it would be considered cheating by definition. It's just "cheating" that you won't be banned or anything for since it's allowed.

    I'm not arguing that we should do away with SWF or anything, just simply pointing out that by definition it would be considered cheating.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 271
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    I will agree with this if we can get an official statement from a dev/community manager on what the game is balanced around and what they consider to be an unfair advantage. I've seen nothing to state what the game is balanced around, other than stats. The only official stats I've seen seem to show that the game is fairly balanced between all MMR and the top 5% MMR. Which doesn't indicate that voice chat is or isn't causing an unfair advantage.

    If it isn't considered an unfair advantage and is allowed by the game rules then it isn't really cheating. Just because someone playing considers it an unfair advantage doesn't mean the developers do.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,575
    edited August 2023
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    "I will agree with this if we can get an official statement from a dev/community manager on what the game is balanced around and what they consider to be an unfair advantage. I've seen nothing to state what the game is balanced around, other than stats. The only official stats I've seen seem to show that the game is fairly balanced between all MMR and the top 5% MMR. Which doesn't indicate that voice chat is or isn't causing an unfair advantage."

    Anyone with an even remotely decent amount of hours in the game knows the game is not balanced around SWF, that's just common knowledge and is generally a pretty unanimously agreed upon statement by killers and survivors alike. I wouldn't put too much thought into kill stats either as they are extremely flawed for a multitude of reasons, which is also why even the devs specifically state not to draw any conclusions from them, as you're doing here.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,292
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    If it was cheating game would not have option to play with friends on party and it would never be released on xbox where you have built in comms on consoles. Game is balanced beating casual swf:s but only good 4 man is problem but then soloQ wiuld suffer too much if game was balanced around that and it would suck all the fun away as well. Too competive games are not fun. Dbd was more fun before when it was not as balanced as it is now.

  • FreddyVoorhees
    FreddyVoorhees Member Posts: 324
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    True , it's what I was trying to point at. No matter how it is labeled , it does give players a very decent stream of info on the killer, fellow survivors, map objects, intentions , dangers , strategies. Which is why I would like to have a bit of trade off for the killers. Even if it is a small basekit buff when facing a full swf group.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 271
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    Oh I agree with you on the stats. I don't draw any conclusions from the stats because I know they don't show the whole picture. I've got enough hours to know that the game also isn't balanced around newer players or just solo queue. I tend to hover at lower/mid MMR and I can promise you if the game was strictly balanced around solo queue players at that level then killers would never get a kill at any other level.

    Higher MMR solo queue may be a bit different it's been a while since I climbed that ladder but judging by the threads I read on here, higher MMR seems to be only high level swf groups anyway. That apparently can still be beaten.

    As long as there are higher tier killers, like nurse and blight, that can compete with higher tier swfs then it's hard for me to say it isn't balanced around that.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,575
    edited August 2023
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    "If it was cheating game would not have option to play with friends on party and it would never be released on xbox where you have built in comms on consoles."

    Wrong. That is not a part of the definition of cheating. Whether they allow it or not or build it into the system is completely irrelevant for the definition of cheating. That may be how people tend to use the word cheating, but most people are using the word incorrectly.

    "Game is balanced beating casual swf:s but only good 4 man is problem"

    No, the game is not balanced around a casual 4 man swf. It's balanced around a bad solo queue group. Most people could debate on what kind of solo queue group the game is balanced around, but it's pretty unanimously agreed on that the game is not balanced around swf at all.

    "but then soloQ wiuld suffer too much if game was balanced around that and it would suck all the fun away as well."

    This would be a completely different conversation. I'm not referencing how the game should be balanced here, I'm simply clarifying the definition of cheating.

    Post edited by Blueberry on
  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 2,353
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    Not true. It was designed with SWF in mind, but at the time of the game’s creation they couldn’t do both SWF and KYF. They chose KYF because they thought people would like that more at the start but always intended to add SWF.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,575
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    "Higher MMR solo queue may be a bit different it's been a while since I climbed that ladder but judging by the threads I read on here, higher MMR seems to be only high level swf groups anyway. That apparently can still be beaten."

    Higher MMR is mostly swf, however high mmr solo queue does quite well. Based on threads on here where people say they survive an average of 20-30% of the time would lead me to believe most people on these forums play at low mmr. My solo queue high mmr survival is at least 50% and that's being generous as I tend to throw games to save other people and could be more greedy. Also the context of how people die is relevant. We don't want the game balanced around camping and tunneling, we want it balanced around aiming for 12 hook games as that's healthier and more fun for everyone all around. So saying that killers are handling high mmr swf is a bit disingenuous as they arent, they get their "wins" through camping and tunneling a lot so that is not a representing of actual objective balance. This is to say if they didn't camp or tunnel at all they'd be getting smashed on average.

    "As long as there are higher tier killers, like nurse and blight, that can compete with higher tier swfs then it's hard for me to say it isn't balanced around that."

    This is a completely irrelevant point. You pick the small percentage of the entire killer roster that can actually compete so that makes it totally fine? 90% of the roster cannot.

  • biggybiggybiggens
    biggybiggybiggens Member Posts: 659
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    Doesn't change the fact that the game itself still isn't balanced for 4 man SWFs. Pretty funny how many people still try to say it is though.. xD Is the sky green or grass blue to you as well?

  • EliskaMM
    EliskaMM Member Posts: 145
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    Imagine complaining about people having friends and playing a PARTY game with them while in call.. Bro.. if you are having problem with killer role, you might need to reconcider your skill..

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,292
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    "Wrong. That is not a part of the definition of cheating. Whether they allow it or not or build it into the system is completely irrelevant for the definition of cheating. They may be how people tend to use the word cheating, but most people are using the word incorrectly."

    I define cheating what is clearly agains't the rules usually players using hacks. Now dbd could have built in chat definetely and maybe they consider doing that at some point like they did the hud change.

    "No, the game is not balanced around a casual 4 man swf. It's balanced around a bad solo queue group. Most people could debate on what kind of solo queue group the game is balanced around, but it's pretty unanimously agreed on that the game is not balanced around swf at all."

    If you think balance is getting 4K every game then yes game is balanced around bad soloQ group. But if the game is balanced around casual swf then that means sometimes you lose and sometimes you win. The devs I think have stated they try to balance between 4 man swf and soloQ. So that means the game is most balanced for 2-3 man swf:s and even casual 4 man not every swf is super competive.

  • sulaiman
    sulaiman Member Posts: 3,214
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    its balanced by making the killer stronger than solo survivors, and giving them matches against them.

    Thus, he 4ks the solos and has to swallow 3+escapes. In the end, a balanced 50% kill rate.

    Or let me put it this way. If you think killers need a buff for facing swf (which i fully agree with, btw), should they get a mallus when facing solo (again, the answer is yes). Killer right now is balanced in the middle between solo and swf, stronger than solo, weaker than swf. It can never be solves as long as you dont seperate them into different modes with different balancing.

  • Unknown2765
    Unknown2765 Member Posts: 1,983
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    No its not, what if people sit in the same room and play together, is that cheating too?

    we live in 2023 now, and voice coms are normal in most co-op games.

    I do think killers need a speed buff tho

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 271
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    I would love the game to be balanced around hooks. That's the main reason I don't gain much MMR as killer. I don't really like the killing part and often let people go. I also play for 2 hooks nearly every game I play. The chasing is the fun part for me. I started playing when blood points gained rank, just before the victory cube. I hated the victory cube because it was also based on kills and was another time that camping was awful. It wasn't the greatest but I enjoyed ranking with the emblems over MMR.

    However, no one is forced to camp or tunnel. As long as it can bring in wins I will not simply discard it just because I don't want it balanced that way. It currently is a part of the game and until it's either dealt with or people stop using it to win, then the game has to have some balance around it.

    How is using the top killers as an example irrelevant? I never said it was fine that those were the only killers able to compete. It's just that as long as they can, and players aren't forced to pick any other killer, then that makes it kind of balanced around it. If you want to compete with high tier SWF then choose high tier killers. It's kind of the equivalent of solo queue players, who have a hard time, wanting to compete with high tier killers. They could just band together in 4 mans, practice together, and then be able to compete on a higher level as well.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,575
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    "I define cheating what is clearly agains't the rules usually players using hacks."

    Lol we don't make up our own definitions of words. That's not how life works.

    "The devs I think have stated they try to balance between 4 man swf and soloQ."

    They have not said this.

    In order to have a rational conversation we have to operate in objective reality, not our own truths.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,575
    edited August 2023
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    I'm not saying we shouldn't camp or tunnel if we have to in order to win. What I am saying is we shouldn't be balancing around that. That would actually allow us to fix camping and tunneling.

    "How is using the top killers as an example irrelevant?"

    Because it would be silly to say the balancing is fine because 2 killers can compete. So if they want to compete they have to ignore 90% of the killers as options? This isn't rational.

    I don't think comparing that to solos and telling them to do swf if they don't want to lose is apples to apples. You can very easily win without resorting to swf, whereas most the killer roster relies on survivor mistakes to win. Survivors are also just skins, killers are actually different game modes essentially, so you'd be telling them to ignore a large amount of the features of a game.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 271
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    It may be silly but it means the option is there. Even if people act like there is no option. To the point of being different game modes, I've actually thought a lot about that lately, they do change the game.

    That doesn't mean that every game mode should be on a competitive level though. Some game modes should be more for fun. If someone doesn't find that game mode fun, or if they only find winning fun, then they don't have to choose it.

    As just a side thought, It also means that if I want to play a certain game mode as survivor, I have no choice in that.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,451
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    yea here's the suggestion made a million times already: it's not cheating but yes it's extra challenge for the killer. there's nothing they can/should do to prevent comms so just reward killers with a bp bonus when they are going against a swf.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,391
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    Cheating: To deal fraudulently, practice deceit. https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=cheating

    Also: Cheating generally describes various actions designed to subvert rules in order to obtain unfair advantages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating

    There is no rule against SWF and there is no rule against the use of third party softwares for communication purposes as long as it doesn't affect the game's files. Which is not the case for Discord and other platforms.

    Meaning, when BHVR allow something, then it is not cheating. They make the rules. If they decided that it was allowed for people to use third party software to gain the ability to fly, then even that, by definition, would not be cheating. Fortunately, they wouldn't do something like that but you get the point.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,575
    edited August 2023
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    Cheating: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

    The game is not balanced around SWF, so it is in fact an unfair advantage.

    You can keep repeating how they allow SWF but that is irrelevant. Whether or not something is allowed is not part of the definition.

This discussion has been closed.