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Tile fairness for m1 killers
As some of you know, i main pig. I played this killer for a very long time.
What can i say. I love m1 killer mindgames and the typical survivor vs killer gameplay. Pig gives me enough time to play that. But thats just one of the reasons i love this killer so much.
Now to the topic at hand.
Now that we have made for this in game and lots of bloodlust discussions have popped up in relation to this perk, i think it might be time to discuss the fairness of most tiles in the game against pure m1 killers. I have also seen lots of people saying that maps are fine and that maps are more fair now.
I will speak from my experience as pig, which true, is a better m11 killer than most (small ccharacter + very quiet + dark cosmetics) but i play a lot of trapper as well and perform relatively similar with him in terms of m1 killer gameplay.
Now the "hot" take: in my opinion, around 60% of the tiles and structures in dbd are very unfair, yes unfair, against m1 killers and most killers are completely reliant on their power to get any form of hit IF the survivor is good (chaining loops and know where to stand and wait to haver an advantage in distance).
As for some examples and i know im gonna get chased with pitchforks for it.
Killer shack.
I developed 4 different mindgames around that tile over the years of playing this game. None of them work if the survivor waits around the corners. There is a spot in the middle of the shack, where the survivor can literally stand still. If the killer enters the shackl, the survivor has enough room to vault the window and not get hit. If the killer doesnt enter the shack, the survivor doesnt vault and makes another loop around the longer side of the tile. I know that not every survivor plays this good and that most at least vault the window if you (the killer) pretent VERY heavily to enter the shack and then mov out again. What happens in chase that the survivor loses this mindgame? They have enough time to get to the pallet, only take a hit when healthy or even get the window from the other side (possible thanks to made for this + resilience + new vaults). What ever the killer does, it takes extremely much time, can be done over ad over again throughout the match and get much worse if made for this is envolved.
Now you might say: "not every survivor makes it to shack all the time." This is true. If any survivor would make it to shack at any time in the match, i think the game had serious problems. Sadly this is not even that impossible with good planning, pathing and the right perks to back it up. Made for this, overcome, sprint burst, lithe and some others that are less common all let the survivor get to shack or any other loop they would love to play. Sadly getting to shack is not that hard as it seems.
Next you could say: "Well, if a survivor makes it to shack, just leave them alone and chasee others." This is sometimes not really the best play. If i find a healthy survivor in the beginning of the match and io know where the others would have spawned, then yes, I dont have to follow then there. However, when they are injured, whioch means i have invested a lot of time to get them injured OR i need my first down (very important as pig) im in a lose - lose situation there. I commit to the survivor and play shack or i leave to take my chances with another survivor. (Which could have a callout from where i come (stealth vs discord), has two health states, might also make it to shack or another unfair tile / structure. This is not the best option and more of a gamble most of the time.
There is a lot else one could say about the fairness of shack. I didnt even get into the situation when the window is connected to another loop or even another window (possible on a lot of maps but i see it very commonly on father campbells chapel). I hope that some of you can share your experiences and opinions as well.
This is just one tile. Sadly a very common one.
Other tiles i find unfair against m1 killers are:
- Jungle gyms
Main buildings like:
- Garden of joy house
- Father campbells chapel
- Asylum
- Storehouse on groaning storehouse
- Hotel on the Mount ormond resort
- Saloon on dead dawg ( why does the killer HAVE to break two breakable walls to have a fair chase?)
- Pre-school on badham
- Main building on Erie of crows (similar to saloon)
- Huntes's lodge on Mothers dwelling
- Grim pantry on lol Grim pantry
These are only in my opinio. Feel free to share you opinions as well.
I sometimes get the message "bot killer" after some matches from survivors that are not the best sports. However, on some maps i literally feel like a bot running after a survivor that uses tiles, where i have literally no counter other than to leave the tile or brute force a pallet. In these chases it doesnt matter if a human or a computer is playing. the outcome is the same.
Tiles like these are for example the
- long tiles on coldwind (mostly seen on cowshed or torment creek)
- Snowmachine on Ormond
- Crane on Autohaven
- Most of the loops on the game (Saw map)
Again, these are only the ones that i can remember right now. Please chare your thoughts.
I would love to create a 20 page essay on all the tiles in the game, but i sadly dont have the time to do that.
As killer i want to have counterplay. Same as survivors want to have counterplay.
A tile that enables this, in my opinion is the classic L-T-wall. Both the killer and the survivor has a decent chance of playing it right and therfore getting a hit or avoiding it. One of the best tiles in my opinion.
Please keep the discussion fair and objective.
I sincerely hope we are at a point where we can talk about this topic without someone being called out for a skill issue or just "git good". I play Pig. I cant start flying. I think the local Trapper main can relate.
And because in this game one needs prove to backup their opinions: I played and mained Pig for around 2000h now and mostly play m1 based killers.
Thanks for reading.
Comments
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I've been saying this in relation to Trapper and just get told I'm bad so... shrug
That's the MFT issue though: being injured means nothing anymore. There's absolutely no risk to being injured when you have 17 perks to gain endurance in different ways. In fact, it probably benefits survivors more to stay injured with MFT seeing that Resilience has crept back into the meta and Prove Thyself is still there. It's the same issue that's been present with every big discussion — strong killers don't care, average killers have a 50/50, and weak killers struggle even more than they would already. But hey, "skill issue"
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As i said. I hope we are at a point that we can discuss these aspects without just shmaing or calling out people. I agree with you entirely.
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I think the problem is a survivor needs a way to realistically get away from a killer that spots them. You mentioned shack pallet but pallets are one time use if the killer decides to break it. Breaking it lets the survivor build a lot of distance, sure, but that’s a one time event and it’s kind of the point of pallets. If killers always had a quick way to down a survivor in all tile configurations and situations without needing to spend time that would otherwise be spent on pressuring gens, there really wouldn’t be a point to playing survivor.
Tiles are generally meant to be beneficial to survivors and not the killer. Survivors are designed to have to run from the killer but being slower than almost all killers (assuming we ignore blinking for the sake of technicality) means they need something to compensate in order to have a chance of winning.
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Again. I mentioned the LT wall. This tile played really well can cost the killer a lot of time. Ive seen it happen.
Im know that pallets are supposed to give distance and that they are a one time use. However, the amount of pallets where the killer cant do anything buffles me. In my post i talked about long tiles and the game(map). I want the killer to have as much of a chance to success as the survivor does. I dont want to brute force my way through pallets. I want to "play" around them. Also. The game has so many pallets that you HAVE to break as an m1, that i dont think that there is any "one" time event at all. When all the "one" time events have ended, the game has progressed that far that the killer first: is kinda mad that they had to play like a bot. Second: lost many gens to playing like a bot. Third: has to play "dirty" to have a chance for a comeback (tunneling/ camping).
Sorry but i disagree. Survivors dont like Knights, Skill merchants and even Artists "broring" hit or hit scenarios because they feel like they had no play and could have been replaced by a bot that plays the same way. Why is it fine for killers but not for survivors to have that gameplay? I want fairness for both sides.
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Personally I believe BHVR should take the dead dawg saloon's shack way of tile balance into the other tiles.
DDS's shack has a breakable wall that turns shack from well... shack... into a fair longwall for the rest of the game,at the expense of conceding distance and wasting time once, it allows for a pseudo fix to Tile unbalance.
Or alternatively, reduce the amount of possible check spots on tiles , survivors being able to see 3+ possible routes in a tile because of 3rd person camera is ridiculous, it just makes mind games impossible aswell as neutering skill expression from both sides.
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You forgot the Myers House, Pog Logs and that one tile in the corner of Garden of Misery (with the car, pallet and vault).
Even some killers with good chasing powers can't do anything against most of these tiles. It really is that ridiculous. The worst part is, that these are all pretty easy to loop when you play survivor. Because what is the killer going to do? Turn into Nurse halfway into the match and blink right through? Well, sorry. I haven't mastered that tech yet.
My main issue with many of these tiles is that Nurse and Blight don't really care. Nurse doesn't care if there is 1 pallet, 10 pallets, 100 pallets or no pallets at all. She will play the exact same. And Blight can play around these things no matter if there is a pallet or not. Meanwhile you have Trapper, Clown, Pig, Doctor, Freddy, Wraith, Myers, Legion, Bubba, Ghostface, Demogorgon, Twins, Dredge, Sadako, Billy and even Nemesis to degree, who have no chance to do anything better than just following the survivor step by step until they bloodlust and the survivor drops the pallet or the entity blocks the vault. Such engaging gameplay, when it doesn't matter if you have a lot of experience and play pretty well or if you just installed the game 5 minutes ago and have no idea what to do.
And we haven't even talked about RNG yet. Because there are set ups that leave even killers with stronger chase powers in awe at how horrible it can get. I have experienced first hand what happens when a somewhat good survivor (neither extremely good nor bad) has the double window in Father Campbell's Chapel and a interconnecting TL wall. 4 windows connecting into each other. Sounds fine? No it doesn't. Because it isn't. On the new Cowshed map you can get 2 long tiles right next to each other. On Toba Landing you can get 2 vaults right next to each other plus a few filler pallets around. Great. The average killer can definitely outplay a survivor that has 2+ seconds to react to everything they do.
Most pallets are so safe that even if you could manage to get a hit because the survivor made a huge mistake it's not really worth it to leave the pallet still intact. Because the next survivor will be smarter. And then you have to break it anyway. Something else I find funny is the amount of pallets we have on some maps. If a survivor doesn't even try to loop but just drops pallets left and right, that should leave them with huge dead zones and no more ressources left, right? Well, it doesn't. Because the game is over before they run out of pallets to pre drop. The Game is the worst offender but the Borgo, Eyrie of Crows, Red Forest maps and Garden of Misery follow suit.
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True. I would love all shacks to be likke the one on dead dawg.
Sure i have to break a wall but at least then i have a fair chase.
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The whole point of the 3rd person camera is to be part of the survivor’s toolset. Heightened environmental awareness is beneficial when you can only run. Until survivors have weapons and killers have health states, the game needs to have mechanics and map designs that support survivors having more options than just going down the moment they’re spotted.
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Survivors don’t like Skull Merchants or to a lesser degree Knights because their powers are frequently used to create boring battles of attrition. Before the regression nerfs, they could literally guarantee no generator could be completed in a 3 gen setup unless they went AFK or something. It has nothing to do with whether they might as well be bots.
That some chases, when run optimally and with lucky map configurations can take a while is by design. This game is designed such that a killer will always catch up to and down a survivor provided they’re both looping to the same level of skill. The only question is how long it will take. A killer is meant to make a choice in those situations - continue the chase and get a down or break chase to play for more downs by slowing gen progress, going after survivors in less favorable areas, etc. If a killer can catch up to a survivor consistently and quickly, what do you think a survivor can do to win? How do you feel that would be fair gameplay?
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"environmental awareness" already exists via Sound like the terror radius and chase music , killer red stain, etc etc.
however being able to wait at a spot that guarantees you wont be caught because you can see all 3 possible routes and run accordingly isn't a very skilled endeavour , it nukes all skill expression and demolishes the suspense and "horror" factor of the game.
its akin to playing a custom game vs surv bots, surv bots having perma wallhacks just turns loops to a mind numbing 3 spins into pallet stun simulator.
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Killers asked for no heal meta. Now survivors are focusing on gens and not wasting time with healing. What's wrong?
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I talked about the chase factor of Knight etc. He forces hit or hit scenarios. Thats the main complain i hear about him. Not the gen defence. Artist is also disliked for that reason.
Some killers already have extremely strong chases and still lose the 1v4. Ice lost with spirit on maps where i downed survivors in seconds. I löost because i went for too amny hooks and because they spread out very well. Short chases does only make the game way harder for new players. I think we should reward good players.
Again. As killer i also want to have a play at all tiles. Not be reduced to a bot.
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This is about fairness in tiles. You told me that maps are fair. Im here to tell you otherwise. Maps are fair for blight, nurse and other killers with strong chasing abilities. NOT for m1 killers.
This is not a discusssion about the change of meta. Please focus on the topic at hand.
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Thats the lofty theory, but the reality is far from the ideal, that a survivor WILL go down. Juking and bamboozling the killer in a way that they loos track of the survivor and get thoroughly juked aside, you don't need to be a god looper, to run a tile a couple of round, drop the pallet and go to the next and due to the maps being so safe these days, the killer has no real option, but to play "like a bot" und mindlessly follow the survivor around dumb cars or trees or stacks of garbage, due to their small hitboxes and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it; a problem thats only compounded by the presence of MFT, that totally messes this kind of ups and totally breaks their balance. I had a match at the game, where I just couldn't reach that Ada who ran MFT. The only option was to leave or brute force it with blood lust ... and that inevitably ended with a pallet to the face (one of 30) and off to the next incredible safe one.
Some pallets that needs to be broken, like on the long hedge walls on Haddonfield or Garden of Joy, are ok, but the vast majority of pallets should be mindgameble to some extend, which they aren't.
The loss of gen regression wouldn't be so bad, if post-6.1 not basically all survivors learned that splitting up on gens is king. The extremely safe maps, non-mindgameble tile sets and strung together loops and split up survivors so often lead to 3 gens popping after the first chase .. or at least 2 with a third one following suit shortly after. 6.1 gave killers a breather after the long drought, but now it feels like we are back to zero or actually worst off, with gen regression mostly dead, MFT destroying loop balance and splitting up and fastforwarding the early game to 2 gens left after the first chase...
What this game could use the most is a comeback mechanic: I know, peeps hate it and claim "why should I be punished for playing good?", or even better "why should THEY be rewarded for losing?", but its much healthier for the game. Right now its usually one side that stomps early and keeps winning harder, the fun close matches are rare indeed. So let the Entity eat and spawn pallets, according to which side is fareing better, block a gen for a while or spawn a medkit in the corner that you are hiding in.
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I am sorry but maps supposed to be strong for survivors because most of killers have anti-chase ability. Imagine they are nerfing these maps for killers like Pig, Trapper, Doctor etc.
Now these killers will be fine. True.
But how you will loop Clown, Pyramid Head, Nemesis, Demo and other anti-chase killers. How you will have chance against range based killers ( Huntress, Trickster and Slinger).
Do i even need to say this will make Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Wesker and other A tier killers busted and broken.
Maps are coming with strong loops for reasons.
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Its not only Made for this. Its how certain tiles and structures are desined. I explained shack as an example. Other tiles where also mentioned. Shack is not fair by design. Pog logs are not fair by design. Made for this only makes it worse.
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Strongly disagree.
Since sadako got butchered ive played a lot more demo. When i play pig on Midwich, i have a lot fo tiles that are good. They are huge, let me hide my terror radius etc. For demo, this map isnt easy. The tiles are very short, meaning his shred isnt that strong. Some of them are also rounded. Powers like Weskers bound and Demos shred are not usable there. Same with Pinhead. Huntresss and Trickster have problems on these tiles because they cant hit over them.
Blight can also have a hard time on tiles like this. Especially if hug tech could be removed. Blight is strong on longer tiles, because he can catch up to the survivor on the long side with out the survivor making it to the pallet. On shorter tiles, survivors can actually make it to the pallet. So id say some of these tiles might actually be better agsinst blight than the unfair ones i mentioned like the long tiles on coldwind.
Nurse is a problem.
Again. You said that maps are fine. I tell you they are not. They are fine for nurse and blight but not for most others.
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So what would your ideal environment be? 2 possible routes? So now the killer has a 50/50 chance of guessing their way to a down in the next 3 seconds. You also suggest reducing the number of jungle gyms. Ok, so now if they guess wrong they are punished by waiting 10 seconds for a down instead of 3. The horror.
Exactly how long do you want your queue time to be?
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I would say, that the long side of shackl could be closed up to not have clear vision on the killer. In that case, the killer had a chance to mindgame and get a hit if played right.
Please dont get me wrong but do i get it right that you want the killer to have no counterplay at these tiles?
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Also... My queues are really slow as survivor right now. My killer queues are very quick though. Incentive is also mostly on killer.
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yeah. the game just has too many pallets in general. you can play great the entire match but if the survivors don't screw up and play safe with the pallets, they'll still have a lot left when the game ends. which to me is insane.
I also play a lot of m1 killers, and it's annoying that sometimes I can't do anything besides looping until I force a pallet.
too many safe pallets. I rather them all be mindgameable.
yes. I fully agree.
regular shack is too safe. dead dawg shack is harder to play with as a survivor but still perfectly fine to use. it's great.
Turn into Nurse halfway into the match and blink right through? Well, sorry. I haven't mastered that tech yet.
skill issue. just gotta do the triple backflip into a double jump over the cowshed to unlock the ability. EZ
And we haven't even talked about RNG yet.
the annoying part about rng is that I have also been at the other side of this when just nothing spawns... wish it was more consistent.
it's not really worth it to leave the pallet still intact
yeah... sucks.
I like battles of attrition. from both sides.
also, don't get you point.
the game is designed so that the killer will catch the survivor. but sometimes the tile spawns just say, "no you won't". or the map will look at your power and say "you bettter be a god with that".
the survivors aren't meant to win chases, they are meant to delay the killer. yes, the killer should very much consistently and quickly be able to catch the survivor, it's exactly what makes the game fair. it's why it's a 4v1, you have a team.
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No, I just think those tiles are meant to be used to extend chases not shorten them. They don’t prevent the killer from getting a down and don’t eliminate the ability to mind game - they just favor the survivor. There removed all the infinite loops in DBD so if you want a survivor dead, it’s only a mater of how much time you want to spend on it. The point of these tile configurations is to force that choice as otherwise, what can a survivor do?
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Super safe loops shouldn't be a thing at all.
Autohaven has a very huge problem with the way the tiles are, they are tall enough to prevent a ranged killer from punishing a survivor, but low enough that a survivor can see the killer because 3rd person cam lets you see OVER the tile , not to mention the autohaven tiles having gaps that lets you see the killer trough them and renders mindgames once again, useless.
Casual reminder that BHVR acknowledged that being able to see over tiles is inherently an unfair advantage when they patched out stretched resolution.
Incase anyone needs a autohaven JG refresher : https://youtu.be/bqnUTJcNe78?t=376
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They do remove the abliity to mindgame. Please take a look at shack.. Whats there to mindgame? The killer is visible from all sides. Same with the tiles i mentioned. Long tiles on cowshed are not open for mindgames. Do you know what a mindgame is?
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And still long tiles exist. And many other tiles as well. The new tiles on mothers dwelling work the same way. A long side consisting of a fallen tree. The killer is perfectly visible at all times and the loop is too long to mindgame / play around. As m1 you can just brute force these tiles.
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The rotten shack walls make for a flavorful and interesting visual setpiece, but really, as a game mechanic its so empty. The red stain shines through and is visible from the outside at all times and even mid experienced survivors can run it mostly right and alway elude the killer, until Bloodlust II kicks in.
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In loops, killer can moon walk, suddenly changing the direction forces survivor to react on time, or not enough time to make it to a pallet.
Consider killers have higher speed and Bloodlust. Killers dont need to look behind in chase, survivors usually looking back and getting stuck.
Its weird to complain about the base mechanic since the game release.
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I wasn't playing the game when this meta started so you can exclude me from that generalization, thanks.
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Its extremely disingenous to claim "killers can just moonwalk" while ignoring that loops aren't just straight walls.
Loops are more like this :
Its also weird to forget that the original developer intention for DBD wasn't for the game to be a 3 rings around the rosey into pallet drop which resulted in massive map design oversights.
Its weird to forget that the bloodlust and window block mechanic exists because the developers acknowledged that certain tiles were inherently too strong and resulted in infinites when the survivor knew how to exploit them.
But yes, keep on claiming killers can just "Moonwalk" their way trough a tile.
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Props where it is to BHVR, the 2 most recent maps (Hux map, and now Xeno map) have some of the most fair tiles in DBD , hopefully im not the only one that noticed this.
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Thanks for pointing this out so I dont have to say it.
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"Getting stuck" we are talking about good survivors. They dont get stuck. They know their pathing really well. They look behind in half a second camera swings... Getting stuck does not happen there.
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Does that seem like a fair tile to you?
It certainly does not seem fair to me. I think a tile should be: What side plays it better gets to either : run aways and waste more time or get a hit or down the survivor. Playing it better means: predicting the mindgame, prediciting the survivor movement or knowing pathing and distancing really well.
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Its a gym, not loops.
Loops are up to survivors who can react the direction quick. Gym is up to who minds game better.
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Jungle gyms are not up to who mindgames better. Ive seen the 500pages clown main with aura reading not getting a hit there for 2 minutes straight. Its just an unfair tile.
Also. Its about tiles in general. Some of the loops are not up to reaction. You can see the killer over the loop. Again i mention long tiles on coldwind as an example.
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Uh wat
I didn't say anything about getting stuck lol
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oh, im terribly sorry.... I was writing on my phone and that was a bit buggy .... i was replying to @C3Tooth
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Of course I do but I also know the shack isn’t a greenhouse with transparent walls. You can’t see the killer wherever they are regardless of their position. There are some small holes, yes, but that’s hardly an unobstructed 360 view of the entire shack perimeter.
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BHVR said being able to see over tall obstructions or many obstructions for a considerable distance is an unfair advantage (along with revealing Ghostface over walls). You yourself mentioned they patched this out - I’m not sure what your complaint is then.
Being able to see a handful of pixels worth of information every few meters does not eliminate the ability to mindgame any more than vibrant survivor scratch marks prevent survivors from ever breaking LOS and losing the killer. It makes it harder. It reduces the number of situations where it might be effective. It doesn’t altogether eliminate them.
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This. Mind games aren’t how you catch a survivor, they’re a way to catch a survivor faster. If killers could loop as effectively as survivors, they would need to be nerfed to be only as fast as survivors. Otherwise kill rates would be even more lopsided in favor of killers than they already are.
If there was something as fundamental as looping or tile design with significant unbalance in the game, killers wouldn’t be doing as well as they have been in the latest released stats.
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do you need it to be transparent to be able to understand where the killer is?
it is very easy to see enough.
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M1 killers can have a hard time against players who are optimizing the crap out of the game. They're fine 95% of the time. It's when you get into that top 5% and competitive level that the flaws start to show themselves.
Are mindgames possible? Yes, if both sides are participating. But a thing most players and content creators miss about survivor play at the highest level is that you don't need to optimize every tile to get the gens done. There's a reason 6 hook stages is considered a good result for an M1 killer at the comp level.
If I'm being optimal on survivor, I'm not taking the first chase to the first tile I come across and looping it. I'm pre-running to the nearest god pallet or god window on the map. There's zero mindgame potential here. Guess where I'm going after that? The next safest pallet, and I'm pre-dropping it. You are 60 seconds into this game and you haven't had a chance for a mindgame yet.
Sure, if I go to a rock filler, you might be able to mindgame me and get a hit. But why would I take that risk? What is the upside there for me as a survivor if my teammates are being efficient on gens? I can drop it early and make distance. It's like a basketball player electing to make a behind-the-back pass for no reason instead of a simple pass.
All that being said, the overwhelming majority of survivors do not play that way. And most of the killer roster has chase tools.
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Im sorry but that's wrong. I need to take footage next time to show you.
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Again. I main pig. Most 9
Of my survivors actually play very close to what you described. I lose 2-3 gens for my first down if I'm not backed up by strong perks like corrupt.
Ambush isn't that much of an option on most maps. But I think you are aware of that.
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If I'm being honest.
Shack would be closer to being fair if :
- long site was closed up on all shacks.
- all shacks would be like dead dawg meaning, they have a breakable wall
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Exactly where the killer is at all times, their direction, and current actions - anyone who isn’t a psychic, yes - opaque walls can present an issue in some circumstances. Quite a few were shown in the video you posted despite it being clearly choreographed for demonstration purposes.
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Damn, I can only manage 2 backflips. Guess I'll have to break my fingers to do more elaborate button combinations. Or maybe I'll use the forbidden tech: "Play Nurse".
I have also seen bad RNG for survivors but it's very uncommon to see a map super weak because of RNG compared to some ridiculous set ups. BHVR should definitely look into it and turn down the influence of RNG down a notch to mitigate both of these extremes.
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The fundamental unbalance is only for m1-killer against survivor, who are good. So only for a few. Thats why you dont see it in the stats.
Its not fair, but with over 30 killer, you can just choose another.
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you do not need perfect sight to know "where the killer is, their direction, and current actions". and having that is mostly unnecessary.
you literally see the guy in the video showing it's sight based. "he there, that means I can safely do X" rinse and repeat.
nothing is 100% perfect. but does it need to be?
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There's a reason why DDS shack has a breakable wall. It's the biggest shack in the game. Also, it's very central and very close to a very strong main building. If every shack had a breakable wall, the tile would be worthless once pallet is dropped.
And to answer OP, most common tiles are very fair for M1 killers. Shack can't be vaulted on reaction (with old fast vaults at least) on anything short of perfect ping if killer hides red stain properly. Jungle gym pallets are very unsafe when they're not dropped against M1 killers that hide red stains, as are the vaults. TLs are very balanced, as are double walls. Only problematic mains out of the ones you listed imo are Disturbed Ward (very strong main on an already strong and large map), Garden (this map is just straight up stupid), and MD (why did they have to buff it in the "rework"?).
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Yes, but this assumes the survivor is agreeing to loop something in the first place. 90% of the deception is taken away once the pallet is dropped. There's almost zero upside to looping if survivors are being efficient on objectives. This isn't to say it's unwinnable for most of the roster though. It's only a small handful of killers who genuinely lack meaningful tools against optimal players.
You can essentially break the game in a public match on survivor by holding W edge map until you reach a safe pallet against basic M1 killers. I've taken an entire lap around Coal Tower against a Trapper and used one pallet in the process.
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