Lightborn is fine and needs no change at all
Given that many are trying to get this perk nerfed so they can have their """Fun""" with killers , I'll contribute with a post against it.
One of the best toxicity counter perks in the game that actually improves the health of the community. Nothing better than forcing bully squads to play the game the way it is meant to be played by doing gens and avoid the toxic abuse they actually logged in for. We need more perks like this in the game to make DBD more fun.
And not to mention the best thing yet ! Pretending you do not have it for a while so they can keep running around trying to bother you with the clicky clickies , only for you to walk in , stare them in the face and give them a well deserved down. Those moments are just beautiful ! A surprise moment that most horror movies have !
New killers are often the targets by the bully squads. And with lightborn they can learn to dodge it safely AND learn how to face gen rushers once they realize you run it. Double benefit !
Running lightborn also gives your survivors a bit of an advantage as you run one less slowdown perk. So it actually requires more skill to win with it AND gets killers to follow meta less. And a more diverse gameplay from the boring meta of flashlight saves. Maybe they should sabo ? Or body block ? Or use reassurance ?
Sometimes you log in just to have some nice relaxing match. Who will bother to constantly look about who is around the corner waiting for a save before you pick up. With lightborn just pick up and hook ! No cares whatsoever.
Not to mention how survivors do those "LAST SECOND SWITCH TO FLASHLIGHT" trope ... that ends up doing nothing in the end. Pure bliss. Or even karma if you will.
Killer perk slot sacrificed to disable 1 out of 5 possible survivor tools ? Quite unfair. Killer perk slot is worth more than that. After being at the bottom of perk lists for so long ... lightborn actually needs a buff.
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I dislike that a perk is able to prevent a tool, I much more prefer something like 90% so that it has an effect but there are never an immunity.
Idd much rather prefer the game like that, but this isnt my biggest peeve with Dbd.
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Just want to say as someone on the fence. There are 2 valid arguments for Lightborn: -
- It is a hard counter that completely removes the flashlight item from the game, which is effectively a survivors equivalent of a killer power. Imagine a perk that just flat prevents a survivor from using medkits or toolboxes at all in the trial. This kind of thing is never healthy game design.
- Lightborn is not overpowered, as the times where it actually helps you can almost always be achieved by sensible killer play, either by slugging to push away survivors from good angles, and/or facing away from them/into walls. It is a underpowered perk that simplifies the killer game to help low level killers get their feet under them as they learn the game.
Both statements are not inaccurate, and are valid arguments on both sides. I don't disagree with a single point raised in this thread... however any statements of my own regarding nerfing Lightborn comes from the fact you can also argue that survivors learning to use a torch is very hard for a new player... and this perk flat out prevents the survivor from learning a genuine gameplay mechanic.
Flashlight bullying is never pleasant, Sabo squads, Head On squads, even a Flip Flop/Power Struggle/Breakout/Unbreakable duo messing around with flashlights to stall for pallet hits.... every killer has experienced things like this at some point, and it is a trial by fire. Playing against it is rough, and a harsh lesson, but one we all needed to learn and experience at some point.
I myself the state of Lightborn as... yeah it kinda sucks, but it is what it is... Unless you make it a perk that allows a flashlight stun save, but then empowers the killer somehow (say I dunno... still stunned while carrying survivors, but no blind, 70% faster stun recovery, and the aura of the flashlight survivor revealed for 10 seconds and you gain 3% haste for 3 seconds), it's current form is the best it can be.
I resigned myself to the fact it's a rather inelegant perk. A hard counter that unfortunately even as a hard counter doesn't provide enough value to warrant changing it.
Post edited by UndeddJester on2 -
Beamer saves are not toxic. They are 98% of the time very easy to counter, unless you're running Shadowborn, then like 96%. People last second swap, because killers bring lightborn or franklins when there isn't even a beamer in the lobby anymore, but "just in case". It gets tiring to not be able to attempt a flash bang save multiple games in a row and just becomes a gen simulator.
Lightborn does not need a buff. If anything it should make blinds "darken" your screen instead of brighten to help with sensory problems and be only partial immunity with the auras.
It would be extremely rare to run into a group of people good enough to duo/triple beamers against Lightborn. Even when Lightborn wasn't 100% it still led to massive snowballs, because people still tried for beams, even if they failed most of the time, because they couldn't coordinate good enough.
How about instead of making survivor a predrop pallet / gen simulator, we stop removing mechanics from them. If you want people to stop "rushing your gens", don't delete something that is very easily counterable. Even in the open, simply running up to pick up and instantly doing a 180 deals with most saves unless running background player and if they're running it, you now know to be ready for it.
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Prevents 1 out of 5 tools. By wasting a killer perk slot. Killers give up more than survivors in this scenario.
Neither survivors nor killers are prevented from learning flashlights/counter because lightborn is mostly used when lobbies bring 3-4 of them. Not to mention that it is rarely used in higher ranks. Bringing a single or two flashlights will not get a killer to put lightborn on most of the times. It disables the mechanic at a high cost too. One perk slot less. It's not without a cost for the killer.
It's never a gen simulator. As I said before there are many ways beside flashlights to counter killers. Sabotage, body-blocking , pallet drop save etc. It does not prevent a save from a survivor.
Even if killer is using a lightborn there are ways to prevent the hook.
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I can't believe this is considered a hot take now. I really thought all the talks about "nerf lightborn" was just a joke all this time. 😭
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I'm gonna say this in the nicest way.
You do NOT want survivors that run beamers to be sabo goblins. Like, sabo is so much more annoying than beamers. You'll probably say, "no it isn't", but I promise you, a good group of people taking turns with break out / sabo? You're never hooking a single person and there isn't much counter play to that other than just mass slugging everyone.
I don't mind a sabo here or there, but when I have someone constantly sabo every hook, or I"m having a rough match and they sabo my first down? That's mald inducing. Beamers I can easily counter.
As for your point about pretending you don't have it, then staring at them. Most of the time they know you have it, they're just confirming you have it, and honestly, they aren't "shocked" when you stare into their eyes as they go for a beam, they're just like,....cool..I guess I'm just gonna do gens now, so I maybe get to a killer that wants interaction with me instead of me pushing gens fast and stealthing all match.
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Was there a large movement to nerf Lightborn? I only saw one thread so I didn't bother thinking about it much.
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Neither survivors nor killers are prevented from learning flashlights/counter because lightborn is mostly used when lobbies bring 3-4 of them. Not to mention that it is rarely used in higher ranks. Bringing a single or two flashlights will not get a killer to put lightborn on most of the times. It disables the mechanic at a high cost too. One perk slot less. It's not without a cost for the killer.
Well, as I say, I'm on the fence, I'm not really arguing the point, but.... it does happen not that infrequently. A not insignificant number of low level killers use Lightborn cause Killer is intimidating for a newbie, and I've seen my fair share of Killers take it against even just my own flashlight cause I don't hide it in lobby (I still suck at using them). At low levels you can bet 2 flashlights means Lightborn, to the point I don't bother taking my flashlight if I see another player using one.
A newbie survivor doesn't have many flashlights in their limited inventory, they are not especially common in the blood web... and cause it is hard, and it requires you to be nearby to the killer, a lot are reluctant to even try. I guarantee everyone will early blind when they first try, if they even blind at all illuminating the killers nipples. Not only that because they're new, guess which killers they tend to go against? The new killers... who are more likely to use Lightborn....
So we have an item, that if a survivors lose the game they lose their already limited flashlights, that they got almost no value out of cause they are really not easy to pull off... and even if they persevere and actually would have got a blind... Lightborn prevents it.
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I went against bully sabo squads that did not do a single gen. Annoying but less toxic. Flashlights are much worse impact wise and they annoy your vision and the clicking sounds , the other just denies you a win. But there is starstruck for that one.
There are 2 threads in the first page.
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Anything that gets in the way of my "LOOPING KILLER FOR 24 HOURS - MAKING BABY KILLERS CRY AND PROVING SURVIVOR IS COOLER AND BETTERER" compilations is unhealthy for the game and should be removed so that I can get more Youtube views.
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There is star struck for beamers, too. Learning proper positioning and counter play to pick up. Agi/Starstruck can net you a few beamer gremlin downs. It is much better for you and your perks to just learn the counter play. Play how you like, I'm just trying to explain to you that you're wasting a perk slot. Unless it's a legitimate accessibility issue due to light sensitivity, you'd be better off with Infectious Fright. Information the entire match, and deters most, but the very experienced gremlins from even going for beams.
Edit: to add on to this, if you want to have more fun, run Hubris, alone. If they beamer save, they're exposed. I used to love running that on Wraith, so if they burned me they were Exposed, it always led to some really silly interactions. There are a bunch of better perks to run that just incentivize the back and forth, but you easily counter the beamers by learning the counter play and get an advantage with other perks.
Even the experienced ones get wrecked by a killer that pretends to look for them / chase them off, then immediately insta 180s and picks. I promise you. As someone that considers themselves very good with beamers/flash bangs, unless I have background player a good killer knows a LOT of counter play and you'll only succeed at 1..maybe 2 if you're lucky. To get that many, though? You're not on gens. You are just hovering and that is free slow down for the killer.
As for sabo, it's the same with beamers in that regard. If all 4 are going for beams and not doing gens, you win. They aren't there to win, they're there to see if they can out mind game the killer and get a save. Experienced killers don't usually give much leeway, so it's a fun challenge. Sabo, though? There is no mind game. Especially depending on map. You pick up, 2 people are hovering with either DH, so they can stay injured with your Starstruck, and they counter your agi starstruck completely, because of breakout haste if they're close. they pre-sabo the two closest hooks, then just hover barely within range for breakout.
Not even talking about a FULL sabo squad, just one very good sabo gremlin is so much more frustrating than a beamer. You can counter the beamer so easily, but sabo, especially depending on the map (and you having no way of knowing their toolbox is for sabo, so you're not gonna bring agi/starstruck, because you see a toolbox, you're gonna bring it if you were gonna bring it). One sabo can cost you the entire game. I've had it absolutely delete all pressure I've had. The same way as Deliverance can in the right situation.
Post edited by SlowLoris on1 -
I find it wild people want Lightborn nerfed, it's literally a bad perk and never worth running outside of like a new player that's still learning.
Honestly the perk needs a buff.
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I understand the argument that a perk should not be 100% uncounterable, but it's such a niche thing that I can't really buy into people complaining about it.
Plus, I mean... if you're facing a killer with Lightborn, that's one of four perk slots that's not being used for a perk that's actually good LOL
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Survivors can still use their flashlight as a tool against Lightborn if they have Distortion and blind the killer after a pallet stun / pallet break to throw the killer off their tracks.
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Huh. So you're saying, I should bring a beamer to waste my time blinding a killer that cannot be blinded, so I can block the aura reading that doesn't matter, because they couldn't be blinded at the pallet anyway?
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Flashlights are rewarding mistakes by giving people a second chance, and there are defo maps where the killers cant dodge the beam at all, as the pickup animation is locked, and killers cant look away. So if the killer are in the middle of an open field, with no lightborn, they have 0% chance to dodge.
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Lightborn shows the killer the auras of survivors who attempt to blind them. Distortion activates when the survivor's aura is read. It does TWO things: hides your aura from the killer AND hides your scratch marks, both for 10 seconds.
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If the killer cannot be blinded, he does not need an aura to see what way you went. The most you can say is scratch marks, but even then, it doesn't matter, because THEY CAN SEE WHERE YOU GO, because they aren't blinded.
The fact is, since the removal of Lightburn from the game, if a killer is running Lightborn and you aren't running Object of Obsession, beamers are basically 100% useless.
I am not saying Lightborn should be nerfed, even if I do think it should be adjusted, I am simply saying, it is silly to act as if that is a good use of your beamer if the killer has Lightborn. You'd be better just making as much distance as possible and not wasting a Distortion stack.
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"they can see where you go"
That is why I said blind them during a pallet stun / pallet break. Blind them while they're stunned and run off while they're looking down to break the pallet. Use line of sight blockers to hide and make distance (no scratch marks to tell the killer which direction you went).
I use Lightborn all the time. I've had survivors with Distortion use Lightborn against me to lose me.
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Do you not understand how Lightborn works? You cannot blind them. Even if you attempt to, nothing happens on their end....
Like, it's just a waste of time, their vision is not hindered at all when you attempt to blind them.
If you're getting lost when someone does this to you, you must close your eyes when someone also attempt to blind you.
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and what do you do if you are in one of those maps and dont have Lightborn then?
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Not considering the topic at hand, but talking about sabotages (something I play basically every survivor game)
1, breakout got changed - it's now just 5m, so it's impossible to be close-enough yet far-enough at the same time. You can always change direction to punish the effect with a hit
2, DH - got nerfed and at most can help 2x, but once you know it it's still easy to bait out. Especially against sabo as that one is very time-sensitive and distance sensitive (no lounge but survivor wants to be very close)
3, starstruck is not a reliable counter against very skilled saboteur. It makes sabotages very dangerous, but not impossible. There are better counters - agitation being the best thing, but combining it with mad grit or iron grasp guarantees safety for every but the most greedy killer (but sure enough, starstruck is most of the time enough to do the trick). But you want 100% reliable counter to sabotages? It's called dead dawg saloon offering - in that map it's 100% killer misplay for every sabo save (even without any perk) - the sheer number/density of hooks makes sabotages non-issue
4, pre-sabotaging hooks is risky business in itself. If killer pays attention, it can work against saboteur - you just need to wait 15+s after said sabotage and then go for hook nobody expects you to go for (hook respawn is 30, carry time is 16s - giving you 1s leeway). There is just 1 or 2 counters for this - and it's the +15s respawn green addon / no notification yellow glowes addon - but this means you can't use double-speed alexis toolbox = you can hook or trade from under the hook, because survivor will not have enough time to sabo after hit and get away - both of these addons are used rarely by skilled saboteurs because of it (most killers can't counter this aspect of sabotages so you don't need the addons to make a play)
5, 1-2 sabo gremlins is the best number of sabo gremlins. 4man is actually weaker then 2+2man. Sabotages are way stronger if there's a threat of beamer save (giving you a lot of time to prepare and not be just stuck on hooks instead of gens) - it's much harder to sabotage when killer knows the only danger is said sabotage.
Overall - beamers are easier to execute and are less RNG-dependent. You get Lery's? Why even bother. The game? 2 hooks in a single small room and provided you don't get really lucky RNG (like hook that's 4m from a survivor is behind breakable wall) - you will not get sabo save. Or survivor falls within 5m of existing hook. Or killer brings agitation (not even to counter saboes - a distinction from lightborn). Or sturstruck. Or some funny random perk (mad grit, hangman's, iron grasp, infectious ...) and you are possibly screwed. There's a very good reason why saboes are played way less then flashlight (flashes just need a survivor not going down next to a wall and being able to hide close-by - a much easier thing)
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*ATTEMPT to blind. My bad.
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good question
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The fundamental misunderstanding that people have on why people dislike lightborn feels almost intention at now nearing 8 years of dbd, I would care to try to change peoples mind on it if i didn't enjoy reading how insanely reactive and defensive the people who use a textbook crutch perk are about it.
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Stop the killer from dropping survivors when blinded. Have it instead weaken the killer, increasing the carried survivor's wiggle speed or the killer's sway amount, and/or hide hook auras from the killer.
Until then, Lightborn should stay as is.
New perks are making it easier to extend chases longer and longer. It's complete BS that a flashlight can undo the killer's efforts in seconds.
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I would counter this with saying, even though I agree MFT is an issue and other perks do help in chase. It is easier than ever to hard tunnel someone out of the game now. Especially with the removal of Lightburn. I can no longer burn a tunneling Nurse to protect a teammate and you cannot body block her. I cannot burn a Wraith with faster SD/STBFL that is hard tunneling, etc.
So, yes, certain perks are BS right now, and there is almost no chance of some of them not seeing a nerf soon, but it has literally never been easier in the history of DBD to delete someone out of the game early right now.
Before someone says "OTR"...yeah, nah. Like, if they're gonna hard tunnel you, they were gonna hit your BT anyway, and that means they were hitting OTR and removing it.
⭐️Again, I am not saying that Lightborn should be nerfed, even though I despise it. I'm just saying, the amount of people that try to give reasons for needing a perk that are literally just...learn the counter play, will never stop me from wanting to explain why it's a wasted perk slot, unless you have an accessibility problem. By reading the responses in this thread, this is not the issue, just lack of wanting to waste the time to learn how to play against them.
Eventually, over time - with more hours, etc. You will long for people that want to go for beamers / interact with the killer, instead of them sitting on gens. I'm not saying, "haha, nerd, you're new, you don't get it". I'm simply saying, you learn how to deal with them if you DON'T run Lightborn and it often leads to a 4k simply by interacting with survivors + getting to actually massively outplay them. Not the "haha, I look straight in your face on pick up to assert Lightborn dominance". Nobody is like, "wow, you sure got me!" It's more like "Yeah, I was right, he has Lightborn. Well, I guess I'm gonna go sit on gens to go next as quickly as possible".
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This is actually the case in my experience. In my lobbies (where other 3 people mostly bring beamers) - if killer has lightborn, everyone (but me - as I can still sabotage) suddenly stops doing anything else but sit on gens to go next ASAP. I would say lightborn is making their game harder - and the reason absolutely isn't wasted perk slot.
I can't comment from the other side as I never bring lightborn (and still get rarely flash saved against - like it does happen, but it's so rare, that I don't mind. Also "bully squads" are generally easy win - once you learn how to counter flash saves, bully squads means no work on gens, too much altruism and easy baits for free hits/grabs/... With some experience I presume this is true for all killer players)
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I only run Lightborn when there's 3 or 4 Flashlights in the lobby and I am simply not in the damn mood to deal with my eyes getting scorched out 20 times a match at every pallet. Though I will pretend I don't have it and see how long I can keep survivors trying to blind me, it's fun.
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Its fine,
besides i love abusing Object of obsession against it lol
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anyone else think chain blinds are not necessary ? with duration add-ons it's so obnoxious, like just one blind is enough imo, blind screen for 10 seconds is pointless ..they can start by deleting that before lightborn nerfs
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You can turn your head down or up and problem solved. Even with best addons you can't get longer blindness then 6s.
Actually chain blinds are very important in case of flash save - without it, survivor will not get much distance and will probably go down again within a few seconds. But with chain blind (while animation-locked), it's possible to basically reset chase, or sometimes even make killer swap targets. That's one of the last defenses against hardcore at 5 gens tunnelers...
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I don't see the link with tunneling, maybe just make actual anti tunnel perk useful like DS, chain blind has nothing to do with it
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Why in God's name would they nerf this? It's a super niche perky - are people really complaining about it? BHVR really needs to do a better job of filtering out the squeaky wheels that dont deserve the grease.
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It's defense against killers and one of the few ways how loosing said killer is possible (hence defense against tunneling - it's limited to skilled SWF lobbies, so it's not ideal, but there's nothing better at hand).
It's clear BHVR does not want perks that are effective against tunneling. They had ample opportunities to do so from patch 6.1 and if anything, they only made it worse (like upcomming patch and new pro-tunneling perk).
The only excessive part is being chain blinded more then 1x - but that's 100% skill issue on killer's part and it's easy to play around (just look up or down).
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My problem with light born, is that it completely counters an entire build/playstyle with one perk slot. No perk in the game should entirely counter a certain strategy.
Imagine if survivors could equip a perk to make them immune from vault grabs? Or immune from being hooked in the basement?
Light born should have a cool down - in my opinion of course.
Light born also promotes gen rushing because survivors have nothing else to do because their entire build has been countered by one perk slot. Same with other survivor nerfs, such as healing. Survivors just do gens instead.
Sloppy butcher needs a good nerf too. I have the same issues with that one. Why would a survivor run resurgence, reactive healing, etc. When this one perk completely counters them? That's why no one really does.
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I cannot see a single Killer-Perk that needs a nerf tbh.
Some are strong, some are weak, but there is no OP-Perk.
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This is my exact issue with Distortion. I have at least one in every lobby, usually 2+. I used to run info builds instead of slow down, not anymore. What is your "slow down" in those builds? Not having to wonder if someone is hiding edge map, because MMR doesn't work, you have the info.
Distortion charging IN CHASE means that I pretty much cannot run 3-4 info perks and just play chill / practice a killer power. At most I run Infectious now, because people have been playing so stealthy since the buff to Distortion. I'm worried that people will start running Calm Spirit and make Infectious useless when the new info perk comes out during the Alien chapter.
I'm fine with Distortion being strong, some people hate being chased and want to be gen jockeys. My issue is that it can pretty much entirely delete most or all of my build without EVER interacting with me. This is exacerbated if I play Wesker, because my TR is so big they don't even need to be near me at all to keep permanent stacks. Then in solo queue it's so very common for a teammate to never see the killer/be hooked and why? At the end you find out they have distortion.
I have the game sense to know where they are, but the info confirms it and is necessary without slow down. If I ran just aura perks still, or mostly aura / no slow down to incentivize chases over just M1 holding, games would finish in just a couple of minutes. It's just so silly that it doesn't require things to earn your stacks. PEBBLE doesn't even charge in chase, why does Distortion?
I won't continue talking about Distortion, because I could go on for ages on why it was horribly reworked, but the fact is for both sides it's unhealthy and should require altruistic actions, etc to earn stacks. Completing a gen -> Safe Unhook -> Altruistic Heal -> protection hit -> beamer/pallet save, etc. Anything that helps/progresses the trial should be rewarded, but not being insanely stealthy, because it's unhealthy for both sides.
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What is your "entire build/playstyle" that is centered solely around flashlights? Because that sounds like an incredibly useless way to play. That teammate who does nothing but follow the killer around to blind them at pallets and fish for flashlight saves? Isn't contributing anything for 95% of the match, at best. By "strategy" do you mean 4-man flashlight squads whose sole purpose is to give the killer retina damage? They deserve to be shut down.
Learn to adapt when your silly meme build doesn't work.
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Blind builds are a thing. Sorry you're not a fan. Even in solo queue. Usually a combo of residual and blast mine. Maybe flashbang? Lightborn counters more than just flashlights. And when people are following you around with a flashlight, news flash. They are not doing generators or advancing their objective. They probably are trying to have fun. People should be allowed to have fun in this game.
As many have mentioned. There are counters to flashlights/flashbangs. I don't need to get into it.
We also have Franklin's, which I have no problem with. Because there isn't an immunity to certain effects.
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So I was right, it is an incredibly useless way to play, that gets me killed because my teammates are too busy memeing to do the objective of the game.
How "fun"!
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I agree 100% that distortion is problematic. As a teammate it's horrendous. Three people are on death hook but this Meg with distortion is refusing to take a chase. Some people use this perk very selfishly. Not everyone of course. But many do.
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You're kind of grouping all flashlight users in one basket. Not everyone uses them maliciously or goes out of their way to throw matches.
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I don't see where this makes you right.
Blind builds are certainly a thing. Sometimes I'll run Blast Mine/Flash Bang/Residual/Fixated + Double Duration Blind beamer, because those builds are actually good, whether you like it or not. I can blind at a pallet and the amount of confusion / time it buys, because I fixated away after blind and the killer cannot figure out where I went is insane.
Like it or not there are builds that aren't "useless" that require blinds. Sometimes I'll toss is Parental Guidance, because the blind/stun on Blast Mine lets me leave the area with PG.
Just because you think your builds are superior to others, doesn't make them that way. I have 100% ran killers for entire matches with a silly build like this. Why? Because it's rare and unique.
The same way Lightburn shouldn't have been removed, because you rarely saw someone use it, it should have been reworked. Rare/Unique Tactics should be rewarded, so every lobby isn't just MFT/Resil/DH/Hope.
This isn't a thread about Lightburn, so I won't go into any of that, I'm just saying...Different play styles are healthy.
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This isn't a thread about Lightburn, so I won't go into any of that, I'm just saying...Different play styles are healthy.
Except for the killer player's eyes, in this case.
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That's not what we're talking about though, right? You said that build was useless, and I'm simply saying, that's incorrect. There are many niche builds that can be very good if used well. If the killer doesn't like being blinded by that build, they can chase someone else or do what I do if someone blinds me a lot. I look down and make them waste a lot of the beam at a pallet and if they try again, I jokingly give NOPERS. Almost always leads to them not doing it anymore and if they do, there are many silly moments afterwards.
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Also, you quoted me talking about LightBURN, not LightBORN, different things.
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I can not believe that people actually think this perk should be nerfed.
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