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Should Resilience Get This Nerf?
There are two perks in the game currently that I'd like to use as an example to contrast Resilience to here, and I'm curious what other people think. The two perks are Iron Will and Made For This; now, setting aside what you think about how strong those two perks are, they both have the same balancing condition applied to them. Neither of them work while the user is Exhausted, but also don't themselves inflict the Exhaustion status effect.
To me, the purpose of that condition is to apply pressure on what other perks you bring in. You can't be both stealthy (for Iron Will) or gain a passive chase boost (for Made For This) as well as getting the active chase benefits of a full Exhaustion perk.
So, then, would it be fair to add that condition to Resilience as well? The idea behind that perk is gaining benefits to action speed (+ vaulting) at the cost of being vulnerable because you're injured, so would it be reasonable to add the extra stipulation that you can't easily circumvent that vulnerability with a quick get-out-of-dodge ability?
There'd still be plenty of synergies left, so it wouldn't be a dramatic blow to build diversity, but it would be another nudge towards constructing builds more carefully than just slapping on a bunch of blanket buffs in all areas. Curious to know what people think!
Comments
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Resilence has been unchanged since 2016 besides bugfixes. Its the epitome of balanced as its never reached to hard meta relevancy unless it was another perks fault. It shows off how unbalanced another perks ability can be. Which itd fall out after said other perk was changed/fixed. (Being shown with current mft now and old dh before). It makes you slightly stronger to go with playing the round injured. It does it well, but not overpowered. Leave it alone.
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My thought process has a lot less to do with Resilience itself being overpowered, and more to do with how perks should be laid out to encourage healthier build diversity.
The Exhaustion condition on Iron Will and Made For This was a good move that should have, in theory, pushed players to think of other perks to synergise with beyond the otherwise-obvious choices. Considering it would fit Resilience, I think that might be a nice extra step in that direction.
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Honestly, I think Resil is fine. When healing was stronger, and it was easier to 99% your healing I think it could be annoying, but with how strong some of the anti-healing perks and add-ons are nowadays, I don't really have an issue with it.
The only thing I still think is weird is that they removed the vault speed effect from Spine Chill, but kept it on Resilience. I'm pretty sure that makes it the only perk that has that kind of effect now. Not saying it needs nerfed or anything, I just find it odd.
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If anything I would give it the added effect of inflicting Hemorrhage any time you’re injured. Resilience is supposed to be a risk/reward perk that you have to be injured to benefit from. Healing to 99% and then benefiting from its effects until the killer comes and then topping off the heal removes the intended risk of the perk. That’s my only issue with it, it’s completely fine otherwise. I don’t think an Exhaustion limit is necessary.
An alternative idea if they don’t want to go that far is make its action speed bonus decrease proportionally to your heal progress. So for example if you are 50% healed then you only get a 4.5% bonus instead of 9% which would achieve a similar goal.
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In the current state of dbd, resilience is a strong meta Perk.
This however has less to do with the Perk itself but more the game around it.
Multiple perks help out the survivor when staying injured. Made for this being the strongest one. This on top of longer healing times leads to most survivors just slamming gens injured because most killers lack the mobility or chase potential to stop them in time. If we disincentivise staying injured resilience's pickrate will drop eventually.
The Perk isn't the problem it's all the other perks and mechanics that make it strong.
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As I said, the actual strength or pickrate of Resilience isn't my motivation here. It's about overall perk design and how they contribute to overall builds.
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I think it's design is absolutely fine. The other perks that have synergy with it maybe not so much.
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with how the butchered medkits? nope , healthier builds are not viable currently unless you want to waste 3 perk slots for healing speed and charge reduction on medkits , but otherwise NO , healing is pretty much not viable against half of the killer of the game , thats why adrenaline is still meta after soo many years.
let ressilience alone . ressilience is pretty much fine as it is , is like a trade-off that also comes with the nice addition of vault speed increase which IMO is a must have if you want to actually go into chases due to how bad and slow vaulting is by default CURRENTLY like without the perk you can literally be hit from miles away pretty often LIKE REALLY OFTEN even on pallets , with the perk those cases get reduced by half with 9% speed buff on vault actions. (also helps to combat laggy killers which is good)
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I don't think the devs should get into the habit of slapping downsides onto every single perk tbh.
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By healthier, I did not mean revolving around being fully healed. I meant healthier in terms of overall game health.
(Though for the record, you can absolutely heal, even self-heal. Medkits weren't butchered and they aren't the only source of self-healing anyway.)
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thats why half of my matches on solo Q are teammates spending years healing themselfs over and over with the self heal penalty?
if the killer just runs mangled , there is no point of healing unless you are facing a spirit or stealth killer , but nah i rather prefer stay injured and do my best with chases and being useful doing the gens.
like you said , you can heal but it takes a looooot of time doing it by youself with mangled. thats boring , i can also bring a syringe for that which is better than default medkits.
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No, the reason for that would be that you have subpar teammates who don't know how and when to heal properly.
There are ways of healing yourself in reasonable times, even with medkits, and the expectation is that you should be attempting to heal your teammates more anyway.
Though, none of that is super relevant to this thread.
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Survivors aren't allowed to have good perks, gee
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Half of the killers, yes.
The other half gets destroyed by the faster gens.
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Now that escalated quickly.
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I feel like this comment is particularly bad faith here considering I'm not even talking about changing what the perk does.
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Resilience is only ever a symptom of a meta, never the reason for it, nor does it enable these metas and instead only supports them. If the meta is "you're stronger when injured" then there's something fundamentally wrong with the game that needs looked at instead of Resilience. Resilience is meant to be THE benefit to playing riskier by being injured, but it's always other perks that make this playstyle meta. You'd be better off nerfing what it supports (Adrenaline, MfT, old Dead Hard, old Iron Will) or you'll end up with another Spine Chill situation.
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fearmonger
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Resi is fine. 9% isn't something big but it is not nothing either.
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you mean like thanatophobia? i am pretty sure perk got nuked 2 times. survivors said it was unfun.
exhaustion effect removes its synergy with other exhaustion perks. your reducing perk diversity by making res only work with MFT.
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Resilience has always been fine and probably always will be. It's gotten indirectly weaker over the years with changes to healing and status effects like Hemorrhage.
I don't think it really needs a direct nerf in any capacity.
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All the perk needs is a time limiter of about 30s , you'd still get your benefits during the chase, but if you wanted to get them again for next chase, you'd need to spend time healing.
Playing insta down killers against this meta is completely pointless, you get your first down, then they just remain injured for the rest of the match. Since you're going down in 1 hit anyway, might aswell save the 16s you'd take to heal in order to be harder to catch while injured AND do gens 9% faster, pretty sure if you do the math Resi is a bigger boost to gen speeds than Prove thyself individually. (9% out of 1 Cps is much greater than 10% out of 0.85 Cps while co-oping)
Iron Will is perfectly fine because it doesn't boost your core game speeds, its just an anti audio tracking perk.
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Yes, the purpose is to remove its synergy with Exhaustion perks because those mitigate the downside of being injured quite a bit (at least insofar as being vulnerable in chase), which in turn makes the supposed tradeoff not exactly a huge factor when it comes to decision making.
What do you mean by "only" working with MFT, though? There are other chase perks that aren't Exhaustion based, some of which actually have inherent synergy with Resilience anyway. Take Quick & Quiet, for example; inherent synergy with Resilience, a chase perk, but not Exhaustion related.
I am personally of the opinion that while Exhaustion perks should be viable and strong, I don't think they should be the de-facto obvious pick for all builds no matter what. Builds that specialise in other things at the cost of making Exhaustion perks less reliable overall should, imo, be seen as a healthy and viable alternative if you want it. Sometimes, to increase diversity, you have to lower the absolute numbers of the current biggest pick, if that makes sense.
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Resilience feels like a perk that has always sat in a good spot. It's not bad, so it gets some use, but it's not busted, so it's not been everywhere. It feels like it's really only become more popular due to other perks becoming weaker.
If it gets a nerf, it will only be because it's popular, and not because it actually needs it.
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That'd be an actual nerf to Resilience specifically, though, whereas my suggestion is more about putting pressure on builds by pushing players to consider what they're making less effective.
I have no issue with the actual effects of Resilience, it's perfectly fine. I just think that it'd be healthier for the game if choosing something like Resilience put pressure on you to not also pick Exhaustion perks, for example, while still allowing those combinations if you want them. I think this particular change would fit Resilience especially because of two other perks that are designed in a similar way.
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I find it amusing that nobody has ever complained about Resilience until MfT came along.
But honestly, this would be an acceptable nerf. It wouldn't even do all that much for the gen speed part, because realistically how often are you going to be repairing a gen while exhausted unless the killer is using Fearmonger?
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^^This. Playing at max health state was always optimal for survivor success. Unhealthy game design essentially made getting to max health a detriment to the team.
Healing yourself takes 50% longer with a medkit and it can only be done once without max add-ons. It's less detrimental to your team to bring a good toolbox.
Self-healing without a medkit was time consuming BEFORE the medkit/self-healing nerf (SelfCare, totem booning for CoH). It’s just irresponsible to do it now.
Resilience hasn't magically gotten better. It’s just a symptom of this unhealthy design. Survivors don’t like running around more vulnerable. It’s like perma-NOEDing yourself.
But when the alternative is heal 50% longer, fewer times; or use an additional survivor’s time; survivors opted to not heal at all. Devs caved to pressure and essentially removed a core component of survivor gameplay (even though we were at 60%+ kill rates). It created the ‘just hammer gens’, speed game, mentality.
Resilience is fine as is. The fix is to make healing feasible and hopefully put the ‘no healing’ genie back in the bottle. But I’m not sure if there’s any going back.
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So, setting aside that whether or not healing is viable wasn't exactly the point of this thread, there are two answers to this.
The first is that it is wrong. You can absolutely heal yourself in reasonable times, you just have to both invest some proper tools into doing it and accept that it's going to be overall slower than someone else healing you because of course it should overall be slower than someone else healing you. There's limited and faster, or there's numerous but slower. Both have viable options.
The second is that altruistic healing not only wasn't nerfed, it was buffed. Heal your teammates. They'll heal you back, I promise, it happens in 90% of my solo queue games.
Finally, the point of the nerf isn't that Resilience is too strong. The point is that I think there should be more pressure surrounding bringing the best-in-class for anything you want to do. If you want the benefits of Resilience, it shouldn't be unfair to expect that bringing Exhaustion is harder, exactly like Iron Will and Made For This. Resilience was just my example because it has such clear comparisons to this concept already in the game and would be easiest to implement.
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Lithe on nightlight has 17% usage rate. when Lithe is used, resilience is picked 17% of the time. adding exhaustion to resilience makes lithe does not work with resilience. the synergy of MFT and resilience remains same but other perk choices are more narrow. your not increasing perk diversity. your making perk diversity have a more narrow scope. in other words, your enforcing the meta. that is kinda what they do on killer perks. for example, a killer has unique build, say nurse with starstruck, they make nurse have special attacks so a unique perk that works well on nurse stops getting used. this enforces nurse to run meta perks.
I am personally of the opinion that while Exhaustion perks should be viable and strong, I don't think they should be the de-facto obvious pick for all builds no matter what.
exhaustion perks are design flaw in survivor's perk system. they will always be best perks for survivor because extending chases means that generator go faster and you survive longer as survivor. so you win faster as survivor and die less often simultaneously. as a result, they will always have highest pick-rate because they are the best perks. the only caveat to exhaustion perks is their reliability to trigger.
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But when you don't get to use Lithe, you start thinking about other possible combinations. In this situation, Made For This is the one sticking point because it's another best-in-class, but when that perk is inevitably nerfed and people almost certainly drop it en masse because they assume it's worthless, you'll start thinking about your other options.
Maybe you bring Quick & Quiet or another straight chase perk. Maybe you bring stealth to make up for being more vulnerable in chase. Maybe you bring Exhaustion and try to manage it, or pick an Exhaustion perk you use less frequently because it works out a little better. That's where the increase in variety would come from; if you can't easily use the obvious two best things together, you start looking at other combinations or nonstandard ways of making those two things work together.
(As an aside, Nurse had her basic attacks changed to special attacks because it was blatantly overpowered for her to get to use Exposed. It really had nothing to do with variety at all, it was a really straightforward balance change for balance reasons.)
Exhaustion perks don't have to be the obvious picks if they have anti-synergy with other perks, that's my point. If more strong and desirable perks had the Exhaustion condition, players would choose to use one or the other, increasing variety. Even in cases where they try to use both, that could be argued as a healthier outcome anyway, because at least they're trying something new with a little self-imposed challenge.
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i don't think so. i think only way you can survivor not use exhaustion perks is if you just nerf all of them to completely worthless. stealth will not prominent in dbd because there is too much mechanics in dbd that prevent stealth from being worth it. the main one is scratch marks. the other two are cries of pain and blood pools. a side problem with stealth is tracking perks and some killer just counter stealth.
the result of making all chase perks not worth using is survivors just switching all their perks into gen-rush perks to do generator faster. Like if you cannot slow chase down then your only other method of reliably winning is doing objective faster.
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This wouldn't make chase perks not worth using, though, because no perk effects have actually changed. What it does is encourage you not to run the best options for everything all at once, because they would have anti-synergy.
You'd pick one of the best options - an Exhaustion or something like Resilience - and then pick other stuff for whatever else you want because it'd synergise better.
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they tried that once with killer side. for example hex:ruin, pop and corrupt intervention. they made ruin over-time regression perk so it does not work with pop and try to impose anti-synergy with corrupt intervention. what happened? killer just ran all 3 of them.
on survivor side, if anti-synergy is discrete that there is 0% to use them together, they'll just pick best option and discard all other options. for example, run MFT and ignore DH/resilience then supplement the remaining perk slots with next best options.
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Thanatophobia is dull by design. It needed a rework no buff or nerf.
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but it punished survivor for staying injured.
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Yes it did, but it was also extremely overturned due to the other buffs in 6.1
Toning it down made it useless. This perk needed a rework.
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adds 25 second extra on 0-100 gen if the killer injures the entire team for entire trial and survivors do not heal = over-tuned perk.
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Put that on a killer that excels at keeping survivors injured and stack it with other slowdown perks, and yes, that is 100% an overtuned perk.
You surely can't be saying that the Legion and Plague Thana builds were okay for the game?
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what was wrong about them? this game has killer like nurse and blight that have constant chase powers. plague acquiring corrupt puke the entire game is certainly stronger chase killer but it is by no means an auto-win for her and than you have legion who is entirely m1 killer and relies on survivor grouping to be effective. one of aspect that people always talk about is spreading and doing gens at the start of the trial. how is that not a counter to thana? thana's effectiveness is strongest at early game because with 5 gens with 0 progress means that you need to do 5 gens under the penalty. with 1 gen, you have a much less of penalty go through because it is just one gen. because you need get injures, thana on average has most strength in mid game which is around 2-3 generator marker because that is the point in the game where killer has injure pressure which thana is based off.
that is good summary of how gen defence perks work in the game. gen regression is strongest at 1 gen(see 3 gen skull merchant). gen-blocking is best at the start of the game and -action speed is more middle game. of course different people will have different opinions for what part of the game is most relevant for the killer to be successful at.
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The perk required nothing extra from the killer, just to play the game with the perk equipped. In return, you get a 22.5% increase in survivor objective work required.
For the two weeks between 6.1 release and the Thana nerf, it was in 100% of games. It effectively made gens go from 80 seconds pre patch to 112.5 seconds after patch, which was and is completely overkill.
Imagine if survivors had a perk that, after just playing the game normally, increased the killers hook requirements by 25% overnight. So after dropping 3 pallets or vaulting 3 vaults, the survivors gained an extra hook stage, up to 3. That would be used constantly and would be insanely over tuned. That's why Thana got nerfed as fast as it did.
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Imagine if survivors had a perk that, after just playing the game normally, increased the killers hook requirements by 25% overnight
they did have that. decisive strike. it was one of strongest perks in dbd because it increased the total hook count from 3->4 by giving you an extra life/free wiggle off.
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Then you agree that Thana was over tuned. That was my point.
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I find the idea interesting and it could be a good idea. Would be fun to see how tests on this would turn out. It has a very strong effect for the low low price of just not healing.
This is such a bad take.
So by your opinion you think Alchemist Ring is fine? It has not been touched since his release three years ago. Until patch 6.5.0 Nurses attacks after blink did not count as special attacks and worked with exposed effects, does that mean it was the epitome of balance?
There are probably more examples to make. But just because something has not been changed in a long time, does not mean it was never a problem nor that it ever will be. Things change, maybe not the perk itself but things around does and Resilience does not live in a vacuum it is affected by everything else.
Take the nurse example above, blink attacks counting as basic attacks were mostly fine until Starstruck was released. Just because something has been unchanged for a long period of time does not mean it is the epitome of balanced.
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a perk is only as good as the player who uses it. you make it sound like equipping thana was an instant win button.
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I would argue they're making it sound like equipping Thana was a "make games miserable" button, which isn't quite the same thing.
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I never said win. It gained value just by equipping the perk and playing the game.
It was absolutely overtuned in the 6.1 patch, and the amount of value was far too much. It didn't lose any meaningful power by healing one person, and there was no penalty built in for tunneling or one person early either. Those were added in the nerf.
And unlike DS, Thana is still powerful in some circumstances. Legion and plague, as others have mentioned, still gain full value from the perk... Especially now that healing nerfs have made the perk even stronger.
DS has no consistent situation where it can still shine. The perk is too weak to perform it's basic function with a 3s stun, 1.4s of which is animation locked for the survivor. So you gain 1.6 seconds of head start, which is beyond laughable, and trivial for any B tier killer or better. The conspicuous action and ecg nerfs to DS were fully justified tho.
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It should need to get its numbers pumped if it wasn't usable while exhausted
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I wouldn't say so, its numbers are perfectly usable. They don't require an Exhaustion perk to be useful, they just are, without any synergy at all.
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the very first version of decisive strike was that whenever a killer pick you up from dying state, you can wiggle off killer's grasp stunning them for 4 seconds. there was no timer, no hook condition, no skill-check. nothing. I am just referencing your comment when you were talking about a perk that makes killer objective 25% longer. it was free 4th hook. later perk was changed to be obesssion perk and then changed again to require unhook and a timer that is more familiar towards today's version of the perk.
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The unhealed percentage is the common suggestion I make for both Resilience and MfT. I just wouldn't want it applied to Iron Will because the perk is already gutted and bleeding out in the dumpster.
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