The reaction to Alien proves some people don’t understand how a 4 v 1 game should be balanced.
Look, this post will contain some us vs them, but honestly the reaction to this chapter is making avoiding that impossible. An actual good killer is released into the game for the first time since Wesker and the crying is unbelievable.
It’s very clear now that a lot of survivor mains don’t view this as a horror game where the killer should feel powerful. They view this as a game where the killer and survivors should feel equal at all times- and if you think that in a game which is 4 vs 1 then I don’t know what to tell you.
Let’s have a little reminder of how balancing in an asymm should work. As a team the 4 in the 4 vs 1 should have to be efficient as a unit in order to win. In the 1 vs 1x4 individually, meaning in the chase, the killer should feel stronger. This does not mean the killer should be insanely OP, but the killer should be threatening , powerful and in this 1 vs 1 the killer should be advantaged. If you end up in a 1 vs 1, the end result should be the survivor goes down. Easily and quickly? Of course not. But too many people have forgotten the goal as survivor in a chase is to DELAY going down long enough to buy your team time to get progress on gens. Just because you watched a top survivor streamer juice some tilted/baby killer for a 5 Gen chase does not mean this is the norm or what the game should be balanced around.
“But that’s not the issue you toxic killer main! It’s how quickly Xeno can down people due to the OP crawler mode!”
Can they? Or are people not placing flame turrets in clever spots, looking out for the very obvious visual and audio cue they give when alien is getting near and actually looping with flame turret location in mind? Did you ever think the reason the tail is powerful is because the devs want you to use the turrets and not just ignore them?
Also let’s address the cool-down issue on the tail attack. Let’s just say it is unfair and Xeno should be a bit more sluggish similar to Pyramid Head and Nemesis, particularly after missing. That’s fair right? Killer makes an error, survivors should gain a bit more distance. Ok, so all those in favour what do we now do about flame turrets? You have a killer power in line with other M2 killers- except for that the fact Xeno can literally be denied their power multiple times a game. Does that seem fair?
Just a final thought as well- what do survivors want? Like seriously, who are the killers survivors enjoy playing against? Because the days of the outdated m1 killer are probably over. Not to say you can’t have fun with these killers, just that it’s very unlikely BHVR release killers like that anymore and the killer player base will continue to gravitate towards stronger killers because it’s kind of necessary. And I’d take a Xeno over a Blight or Nurse anytime.
Comments
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Your post is well argued, and I agree with all points.
As a player who leans Killer sided, to give the survivor arguement a fair shake, I'd say after reading carefully what people are actually saying (and my own experience), most sensible survivors don't think the Xeno chase power is a problem perce'.
Most seem to agree when you're playing around turrets, the Xeno is a fun killer to engage with... without a turret the killer is potent, as it should be...
There is however 1 issue with Xeno, and that is how effective it is at tunnelling. There 2 things survivors unanimously hate regardless of killer:
- Being face camped on hook
- Being tunneled off hook
I dont do them, because I consider them crutch strategies for people who have no desire to actually get decent at playing killer.
If you're on hook, you can't set up a turret, you don't have the counterplay available to you, that's just how it is. This means if the Xeno decides to tunnel you (and why wouldn't it, because we all know that tunneling is effective) you're stuck trying to survive against crawler mode... so we have the Xeno, who has to be strong in crawler mode to encourage turret use, singling out the player who can't take the time to setup turrets... this is just sensible to how the killer functions.
Most survivors against Xeno aren't really upset by the killers power being strong, if you really listen to what is being said, what people are actually upset about is the constant tunneling. Without turrets, the only thing you can do against Xeno is use high level jukes... and your average player can't do that...
We do have to remember that DBD is a high skill ceiling game with a difficult learning curve... the bulk of DBDs player base is not going to be high skill players, it's your average Joe's who won't/can't put in the time to get really good at using spin techs and sophosticated baits to handle being tunneled...
I've made my own suggestion to try and address the tunneling without nerfing the tail, though tbh, there's nothing stopping the Xeno doing it the old fashioned way... so still wouldn't work...
However rather than deny the problem, I think it would behoove killers to try to think of ways to reduce this tunneling problem.
Post edited by UndeddJester on9 -
As far as the 'horror game' issue, it only really is a horror game for the first single digit, maybe some double digit hours. After that the horror wears off, and its just a (mostly) unique versus game. With the equal at all times, it is somewhat more to be equal in outcome, and equal in agency. Neither Killer nor Survivor should be in a situation where they have no agency other than the post-game screen, and even then they should at least have the agency to hit continue or quit on that screen. As far as equal in outcome, that is why they balance around a 60% kill rate. 60% includes inflated kill stats like facecamps and hard tunnels (which include Killer losses at 1k), as well as hatch escapes being an escape with a Killer win. You need both sides to have fun and a chance of victory, or they won't play. Some people only have fun on a win, some people create their own 'win-conditions'.
Now on the agency issue, Xeno has a couple problems in terms of pure agency. When exiting a tunnel, it destroys a turret mid grab, and the Survivor can't get out of range before a free hit. Even if they grab the turret, if the Killer is under the tunnel and exits it immediately, the Survivor has to spend ~2s dropping the turret and accelerating into a run from where they are. Most times this also results in a free hit. This happens at roughly the start of 60-75% of my Xeno matches as Survivor, 15% against me (before I started to crossmap exclusively once I know I'm against Xeno) and with the rest against my soloq team (from how quick they got hit). If hitting the panel to grab a turret consumed the turret count regardless and delayed that tunnel's exit time by 2s for the next 10-15s, it would give the Survivor enough agency to avoid a free hit.
There is a bit more to Xeno, such as how it is too easy to reaction M2 turrets without add-ons and remain in power, but nothing that immediately fits here for this post and the points I'm trying to make.
The problem with the Asym concept is you can't always trust the 4, or rather 3 others. Some people are just there to cleanse totems for their tome. Some just want to get the sick clicky clicky plays for their compilation. Some just want to get perk value. When any of these happens, it stops being a 1v4, and starts being a 2v3, a 3v2, or goodness forbid a 4v1 (with the 1 being you as Survivor).
There are no comms, so you can't justify any mechanic that requires any reasonable amount of coordination that other games would ask for. You don't have free aura reads on your team, so you can't play around them. You don't know their perks, so you can't purposely give them the time for an Unbreakable self-pickup/Flip-Flop or send the We'll Make it player for the rescue. Heck, I believe even Xeno's allied turret auras are only when you are nearby a tunnel, and some gens are too far from tunnels to let you know that information. Is someone supposed to check the tunnel every 4s until they see more turrets to plan ahead? What if the team isn't setting up turrets? That's the problem. You can't rely on the unreliable to be anything but. That's why the Killer role is more fun (at the cost of being more stressful, as every failure is your failure alone, and not someone else's). That's why I enjoy Killer, because I can weaponize that incompetence I just had to deal with during my soloq games while the incentive was at 100%.
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As far as i'm concerned it's not a horror game. It's a horror-themed game (read: the aesthetic is taken from the horror genre).
That being said, let's address the three main points you make: asymmetry, turrets and cooldown.
Asymmetry: Overall yes to what you say - though do keep in mind that "just holding W for 7 seconds until first hit and then another 7 seconds until second" is a form of delay too. It's just the most boring version of it. - What makes the process fun is what you can do during that time. And when facing Xeno, that isn't an awful lot due to the many damned if you do damned if you don't scenarios.
Turrets: Let me put it like this: the idea of the turret mechanic is 8/10, the execution is 3/10. There are so many maps with so many spots where you just can't place them in an at all reasonable spot. Plus the slowdown is so massive that carrying a turret to a viable location borders on actively sabotaging the match. (Bonus: you mention "a coordinated team" - which in the case of Xeno means a 4 people swf on comms exclusively; because they are the only ones who can effectively communicate turret placement to make turrets effective.)
Cooldown: I'm holding off on that one cause I've heard a lot that Xeno isn't actually slowing down the way it is supposed to, in which case the cooldown mechanic would be bugged --- which would honestly explain so much.
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This is not a horror game, quit with this rethoric of "you should feel scared of the killer"
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In the 1 v 1 you should feel like you’re in trouble. The game falls apart if that isn’t the case.
Edit: the game is labelled a survivor horror game on the games official website and on steam so get your facts right.
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Not a horror game:
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There's a difference between feeling like you're in trouble and feeling helpless because of the lack of counterplay. Having to hold w and just wait until the killer catches up is not a very stimulating experience (or a fun one).
From this post alone it sounds like you want the survivor experience to be holding M1 on gens and holding W for 20s when the killer finds them. It's not because there's 4 survivors that they should be lambs to be slaughtered, they're still players who'd like to play the game and the whole "a killer should feel powerful" thing is weird, this isn't a PvE game and stomping survivors in chase without them being able to do anything about it shouldn't be the baseline.
Deathslinger, PH, Artist and other killers have been nerfed because of the lose / lose situation Xeno's tail currently creates. If not for balance BHVR will probably nerf Xeno for consistency sake, but they'll wait for sales to slow down first so enjoy it while you can 👍️
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I have had this thought since Xeno released reading the complaints that people really aren't used to fearing the killer anymore.
It very much feels like new killers come out and the first thought is "how do I loop them for 5 gens and put them in the montage" which is a bit depressing.
Xeno breaks this trend by returning this game to it's horror roots. This isn't a killer you can loop for 5 gens this is a killer you defeat by creating a detection and decoy system. Hear the beeping run like hell and pray the turret bought you enough time to get away.
For the first time maybe ever it's a killer where playing slow and immersive IS the correct choice. Playing against Xeno created a type of tension I haven't felt since maybe 2017 when Cannibal first released and it was another killer that could one shot you. It felt like I was playing a horror game again where when the killer was coming my way it wasn't "meh w/e I'll just loop them for a couple gens" it was "oh ######### time to get out of here and hope they don't find me" which I never realized how much I missed that from DBD.
This chapter is the best thing that could have happened to this game and I hope we get more chapters like it.
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Amen!
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This is one of those posts I wish I could upvote more than once.
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just because you got used to it, doesn't mean it's not horror
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I will say the patch notes do state his tail cooldown movement speed is 2.0m/s which is not the case most of the time. If xeno misses, he should be slowed down and survivors should get distance, but it's just simply not doing that.
Though really we just have a killer who has a bug making them stronger and people keep asking to nerf him instead of fix the bug.
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Actually I want survivors to use the counterplay the devs give them and wait more than two days before crying for a killer to be nerfed.
Also getting hung up on the word “powerful” is just a matter of semantics. Like I said in the OP, the killer should feel powerful in the 1 v 1. How is that controversial?
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So for you guys, horror = die fast?
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Sadly most Survivors dont want to Play against Strong Killers that can be a Challenge most Survivors just want to have easy Killers like Trapper, Freddy , Pig and Onryo they CAN loop for ever and CAN be bullied At the Exit Gate
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So if killer is op, they will be scary to face which is so wrong. They will just be annoying.
Blight with add-ons or Nurse is not scary. It's just annoying to face.
But killers need to feel powerful. Toxic survivahs should stop complain and just die.
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I think the devs should just nerf survivors
Kill rates should skyrocket to 85% to make everyone happy
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Well I would be happy because that would make my road to 10K kills lot easier. My personal kill rate is around 70% now. But other than that I would be done with solo survivor if that ever happens.
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If they nerf the tail to have bigger cooldown which is fine what I have experienced but they should still buff him other ways. Make the tail faster and hitbox bigger. Maybe add autoaim to it to help console players more.
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Hive mind much?
Wheres the downvote button at?
TLDR: Killer not scary anymore!
😣😢🥺
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The problem with that is it's not really a 4 v 1 game. It's a 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 V 1 game
and it's always going to be a problem in this game just by its very design but unfortunately, I have zero idea how you'd go about fixing it. If you make every killer be something one survivor can run for half the game, SWFs become so stupidly powerful that a killer might as well not even boot up the game but it would allow solo survivors to actually thrive and survive but if you make it where you HAVE to rely on your teammates to have a defense against something (like...say placing a flame turret in spots where it'll actually do something useful because you're too busy trying not to get stabbed in the butt by a razor sharp tail), SWFs become good but Solo Queue becomes a bit of a living hell.
With the newer killers, the game does seem to be focusing more on the 4 v 1 game rather than the 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 V 1 game and I think a lot of players don't like that because a lot of players are solo queue players (hence the complaints).
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If you play like you're the first victim in a horror movie, yes.
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You know what would make for a really fun to play against killer?
One that doesn't pose any threat to the survivor whatsoever.
At least according to the survivor players I see on the forum.
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I don't know what game you are playing, but it certainly isn't DBD. Also, highly suggests that you haven't faced a moderately skilled Xeno as a survivor.
As of right now, Xeno hitting or missing with tail is 100% on the killer side, it is un-reactable. Even killers with similar powers (Nemesis, Deathslinger) have to prime up the power (take out tentacle, aim) which gives a delay long enough that it can be avoided. And in Nemesis case, the attack is thinner than Xeno's
"But Xeno going into crawler mode is their power, just remove it out of crawler mode!"
Sounds good but at the moment it's a botched implementation. Similar to Singularity, who has to tag you before becomeing much oppressive in chase, Xeno also has to "activate" its power before it can come online, at which point it is massively stronger.
All of Singularity's power can be turned off by carrying an EMP, doesn't slow you down, prints by itself and can potentially have 8 of them available.
Xeno is MEANT to be kept in check by the flamers.
HOWEVER
Being hit by a flamer isn't a guarantee of knocking out Xeno's power. Very frequently, Xeno players can be caught by surprise by a turret, tank the effect, destroy it and not even lose its power.
And don't forget that survivors have to fetch the turret from a station, the same station where Xeno exits its tunnels from. Any Xeno player knows that they can just wait below for a survivor to fetch a turret, emerge and easily get a hit on them, because carrying a turret slows survivors down MASSIVELY.
And don't forget that you can't just "hide" the turret (like too many posters here suggest) because the turret is very restricted on where it can be deployed - it can only be deployed in open ground. The most you can do is put it in a bush or close to a window and hope the Xeno player doesn't notice the beeping, light and flame the turret emits. And remember that there can only be 4 turrets in action at any time.
But fine, let's say you play versus a new Xeno player or get lucky and manage to knock them out of crawler mode. Well, one of their best addons cuts the cooldown by a third. A brown addon, I might add. But let's say you don't have that addon, or that you want your power back sooner. Luckily, you can just hop back into a tunnel and while going to a new gen you get it back in less than 5 seconds. Hell, you don't even have to do that, you can just wiggle in place and get out in the same hole.
"Ah, but then the Survivor escapes, counterplay achieved!"
... Escapes to where? Another generator, which has a tunnel exit literally next to it? To a deadzone to get someone else to heal them, which is a massive slowdown?
Xeno has Sadako level mobility (actually better if I'm honest) with release Deathslinger level oppressiveness in chases.
At this point SOMETHING has got to give.
A good start would be for missed tail attacks to be a bit more punishing. It makes no sense to have a Xeno miss tail attacks and still be able to easily catch-up for an M1
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You can make it more fair without making it weak but it's hard to understand for binary brains I guess, like losing some distance if you miss tail is reasonable, even nurse/blight/wesker lose distance if they miss their abilities what's wrong with that ?
he can spam tail infinitely, miss without losing distance and still gain bloodlust, you're dense if you think it's fine, "but muh 4v1 surv are afraid of me" ok lol, hope devs have a bit more complex thinking or we're in trouble
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I don't care about being a part of some guy's weird power fantasy. I want a balanced PVP game with fair counterplay on both sides. If Xeno is going to be as oppressive as he is in chase then buff the turrets. Right now they are useless and only slow survivors down. The turrets do literally nothing if you bring the right addons and have a basic level of awareness. I have played over a dozen games as Xeno and probably 30 against him so I know from experience.
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Keeping Bloodlust while using Tail Attack is a bug. Xenomorph not properly slowing down to 2.0m/s is a bug.
People need to realize that Xenomorph has something aspects of his power that are not working as intended causing him to be stronger than intended. Once those bugs get fixed, we can start to asset whether or not his kit is an actual problem. Otherwise demanding for nerfs when the killer has bugs making him stronger is just going to put him in a far worse state.
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Everyone knows the tail whip is not working at intended. You can defend the M2 all you want.
But it doesn’t take a genius to understand that the turrets are horrifically under tuned, waste your time with movement speed, and are negated by unseen addons you cannot account for until you realize Xeno wasn’t burned after missing an M2 and getting shot at for 5 minutes only to still retain their power.
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You can assess how horrifically under tuned the turrets are because they’re not bugged like Xeno’s tail is. They’re mutually exclusive.
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You can assess how weak the turrets are compared to Xeno’s tail whip because they’re not bugged. They’re mutually exclusive and are part of the problem.
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Did I say anything about a power fantasy? I was saying all that from the PoV of playing survivor it's good to actually be scared of the killer again as opposed to thinking they're just a nuisance and bringing horror back to this horror game but thanks for missing my point completely very cool.
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I've played a few games against Xenomorph today with at least 3-man escapes. Turrets are not weak. Too many survivors are just ignoring turrets or placing in them right in front of the control room which are just asking for them to do nothing.
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They are weak. How many of those games are Xenos who aren’t running turret resistance?
It takes far too long to bring them to desirable positions because the walk speed is terrible, only for them to be near useless with the resistance addons. Most Xeno are capable of just tapping the turret with M1 and resuming chase. It isn’t hard. The ONLY time it’s useful is when you double stack turrets near each other. But guess what, doesn’t take a genius to realize they can get their power back within seconds by jumping into a tunnel and being the best zoner/chaser in the game.
you waste time setting them up for little reward. Plain and simple.
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Continue to not set up turrets and complain that the killer rolls over your team.
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But if you set up turrets you delay the game meaning the killer steamrolls anyway
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I agree with you I was really angry about Xeno feeling overpowered and someone explained that it is a bug which will hopefully soon be fixed. Today I have had some good maches now that I have gotten used to him a bit and the turrets.
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I am truly overwhelmed by the depth of this response.
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I agree with this. Alien feeling like a 'threat' is absolutely good for the game. I pray that more Killers in the future have that feel to them, but also counter play, which Alien does indeed have. The turret mechanic is so enjoyable to use too. Why would Survivors NOT want to use them?
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Fine let Xeno lose distance. But let’s also ditch flame turrets then- a fair trade yes? Seeing as you can’t deny Nurse, Blight or Wesker their power we should hold Xeno to this same balancing standard right?
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But How else am I going to get clips for my I made this baby xeno rage video
I must have an easy time or else they're broken
(Obvious sarcasm is Obvious)
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Let me ask you about this balance you want. In the 1 v 1, so the chase, should the killer have the advantage or not?
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I think whoever wrote this post wrote it with anger and the sound of a Device crashing can be heard
Remember it is a game, not two parties fighting
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Praise the lord we got a survivor on this forum who initially having issues with a new killer is learning the matchup instead of just complaining about a new killer constantly and never taking time to learn how to face them and is now having good matches
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The 1v1 is the soul of the game, if you don't respect it with killer design people won't stay on survivor. There's a healthy way to balance the 1v4 along side of the 1v1 and killer powers that minimize or remove the skill expression of the survivor in the 1v1 isn't the correct way to do it. I had really hoped that bhvr figured that out when they released wesker but oh well.
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Because, if it's not singularity Level of counterplay in terms of ease and effectiveness then it's not enough anymore nowadays. /S
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I spit my Dr. pepper on my keyboard when I saw "... should stop complain(ing) and just die."
Such a genuine joy. TY @MikaelaWantsYourBoon I always enjoy your thoughts :)
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Thank you I was angry because I didn't know that the movement speed thing was a bug. I just wish more survivors have more understanding that Xeno just takes a bit longer to learn how to counter. Now killer mains have their flaws too but most people particularly on survivor side only see issues when a new killer with a good but confusing power to counter. survivor mains see no issues with some perks like mft. Though I think killers aren't innocent I've seen plenty saying game is survivor sided. I play like 75% survivor and 25% killer so the only perks I can think of is old eruption. I also think Xeno players are going to be mad when the bug gets patched and they fix his movement speed blaming it on survivors demanding nerfs which I don't agree with.
I say all this as a survivor main sorry this is so long.
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I am glad you are enjoying with my comments 😝
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Haha IKR.. That Singularity EMP stuff isn't basic counter play.. It's the Survivors being able to neuter the Killer whenever they wish.
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They are bugged though. There are many instances where you hit them and they dont break. When you as the Xeno come out of a station, turrets are on cooldown for a few seconds. If you hit these turrets on cooldown, nothing will happen. You will get your hit cooldown and the turret will activate. Then it will blast you while your are locked in cooldown, making you lose crawler mode. I have made it a habit to just wait in front of the turret until it activates and the hit it. This wastes a TON of time.
If this is intentional, it feels absolutely horrible.
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