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'Fair' nerfs to Xenomorph
So there are a lot of complaints about the Xenomorph's Tail Attack being too strong and Turrets being too weak. While I think there is something about the Xenomorph that makes it very oppressive in certain scenarios, I first want to address these complaints and why they're a little unfounded or misunderstanding the power.
(TLDR: scroll down to the labelled Nerfs 1/2/3)
1: "Tail Attack should have a longer charge and be more punishing to the killer when missed"
People seem to want the Tail Attack to have a telegraph so that it they can react to it and reliably dodge the attack during chase, and for the cooldown on said attack to be punishing enough to make distance, similar to other killer Special attacks. If the Tail Attack was no better than something like Demo's Shred, with an equivalent telegraph and cooldown for missed attacks... why would there need to be a counter mechanism like Turrets?
Why would it matter if Turrets were reworked, if survivors never needed to use Turrets anyway, because they can just dodge the Tail Attack like you could dodge a Shred?
Counters like Turrets, as well as Singularity's EMP,s or Dredges Locks, are tools given to survivors that allow the killer to have a more impactful and stronger power. Without Locks on lockers, Dredge would be too efficient at teleporting, and would need their base teleport speed reduced to compensate. With Lockers, you provide Survivors with a tool to counter the teleports, thus allowing the killers base power to be more effective and introducing a different element of skill expression to survivors, instead of relying purely on chase ability, you allow them to outplay the killer with strategy by locking the correct locker.
This is why the Tail Attack is as strong as it is. Survivors have a tool to reduce the killers power uptime and slow them down in a chase. With less than 100% power uptime, that power, Tail Attack, is afforded greater strength and impact in a chase. Survivors have the responsibility to counter it through strategy, placing Turrets in a good position, rather than chase ability.
So I don't believe the Tail Attack needs to be nerfed, at all. I think the bug that isn't slowing down the Xenomorph after a successful Tail Attack needs to be fixed, but apart from this, the Tail Attack in itself is deserving of being as powerful as it is due to the built in counter mechanism in Turrets.
Tail Attack is supposed to be unforgiving and difficult to 'counter' while in chase, in order to pressure survivors to make use of Turrets. Otherwise highly skilled survivors would be able to ignore Turrets entirely and rely on their dodging skills to get them by instead. Survivors need to learn to utilise the counter mechanism effectively to avoid being chased by the Xenomorph in Crawler mode. That said...
2: "Turrets are too weak and never work"
Turrets are not intended to work all the time. If they did, then they wouldn't merely be a mechanism to reduce the killers power uptime from 100%, but they would effectively make it 0% when placed correctly. There's a balancing act to play here, they need to reduce power uptime without removing it entirely, which means they can't work all the time.
Even when the killer destroys a Turret, they are being slowed down, they are spending time on an attack and the cooldown and slowdown associated with that attack rather than continuing immediately into the chase. So no Turret isn't 'wasted', even when destroyed, they are serving a purpose either way.
The issue I do have here is that Turrets are an all-or-nothing mechanism. Either the Xenomorph destroys it in time and are only slowed down, or they don't and they lose their power entirely. This results in a skill floor that I believe is too low, where moderately experienced Xenomorphs can almost always disable a Turret in time, and thereby only feel the lesser of the two counters.
Nerf 1: Turrets no longer build up a separate gauge and then either disable Crawler mode or not depending on if that gauge is filled. Instead, Turrets will always knock the Xenomorph out of Crawler mode, but the remaining charge will be relative to the time you were hit by the flames. Similar to when picking up a survivor drops you to 75% charge. Therefore if you do successfully destroy the Turret fast enough, you will regain Crawler mode faster than if you did not.
This would equalise the skill floor a little, so that experienced killers are still moderately countered, but less so than inexperienced still. It would make Turrets feel that they're always doing 'something' for survivors, and be a more proportional counter to the threat of the Tail Attack.
3: "Xenomorph can access tunnels too fast, and make taking a turret too risky"
These I feel are 100% genuine issues. Most other 'teleporting' killers take a while at the start of a match before they're able to access their teleporting power, and while Xenomorph's isn't quite as fast as some others, it's still very quick to find and catch a survivor at the start of a match.
Nerf 2: At the start of the game, maximum speed while traversing tunnels is reduced by 50% (9m/s), gradually increasing to 100% (18m/s) over the course of 45 seconds.
Additionally Xenomorph can emerge from a tunnel as or shortly after a survivor has picked up a turret, when that survivor is completely helpless and out positioned. Some of this you can chalk up to bad luck and needing to be more aware of your surroundings, but usually there's nothing a survivor can do to know if the killer is about to emerge from a tunnel when there isn't already a turret set up there, which is the whole reason for grabbing said turret.
Nerf 3: Once a control station is 'opened' by a survivor (the action taken before you can 'pick up' the turret), for 10 seconds, emerging from that tunnel will force the Xenomorph into the 'slower' exiting animation, the same as is used for emerging from tunnels close to a hooked survivor.
These would make approaching and obtaining turrets, particularly at the start of the match, a little more forgiving for survivors, and make the counterplay to the Tail Attack more accessible, as well as making a surprise ambush immediately upon starting a match a little less likely and less oppressive.
Comments
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Tail attack being no better than Demo's shred is all I needed to read to stop.
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Then maybe you should read more carefully and realise that's in the context of the Tail Attack being nerfed so that it would not be better than Demo's Shred.
You're not making it easy to dispel the 'entitled survivor main' facade.
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You're literally saying that I want the Xeno to have his power nerfed to the ground. I've made it very clear over and over again that I just want Xeno to be punished more for missing alongside many other people.
Yet again, the people yapping about "survivor mains" always exaggerate nerfs.
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I haven't literally said you wanted anything.
Do you think you're the only person calling for nerfs?
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Since you made this discussion AFTER commenting on my discussion multiple times, it's safe to assume I had some influence. No one is saying Xeno needs to be nerfed to that extent, you're just acting like it.
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Again, you're not the only person on this forum. Why are you taking responsibility for everyone? How do you know no one is saying this?
But regardless, what you're asking for IS this very thing. You keep saying you want the attack to be telegraphed, so you can react to it, and dodge it. That's the whole point. If it could be reliably dodged, Turrets would be useless.
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Never did I say I was. Also, I know no one is asking to nerf Xeno to that level because there's not a single discussion about it. Common sense.
Oh I'm such a bad survivor main for asking that a M2 ability can have a visual animation and audio cue like every other killer has! 😡
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No other killer has a counter mechanism to deny their power entirely. Xenomorph is not the same as all of those other killers with easily dodgable special attacks. Turrets exists explicitly to allow Xeno to have a more oppressive special attack.
I'm going to quote this comment again:
I've made a topic that recognises multiple real issues with The Xenomorph and suggests fair nerfs that would alleviate these and make the killer more fair for survivors to play against as is intended by the killers design, by interacting with Turrets instead of running loops conventionally.
I don't think that's unreasonable.
But you've decided to come in here and make it all about you.
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I think it's too early to be suggesting nerfs or changes. Xeno isn't even a week old and is suffering from bugs, like the cooldown bug that allows her to remain 4.6 during her tail cooldown instead of slowing to 2m/s
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the only thing i want personally is for the tail hitbox to be change. it is very awfull like i keep getting hit through standing up pallets, around corners and even through walls sometimes. the hitbox is way worse than huntress hatchets, nemesis tentacle and wesker dash.
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Tail Attack actually is much easier to dodge than Demo's shred. Tail attack has a very skinny hitbox as opposed to the truck-sized hitbox Demo has, can't be buffered, and doesn't cause the Xeno to move at 460%.
Xeno needs no nerf. He's a B-tier killer at best. Learn to play and stop whining.
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Bold of you to say it's easier to dodge when mathematically you cannot react fast enough to dodge the tail attack. Demo has a whole animation and sound cue. He's a B-tier killer according YOU with no imformation to back it up. Learn to argue and stop thinking your tier list is the same for every player.
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100% agree with point 3 (nerfs 2 and 3). Although arguably I would extend the nerf 3 timer to 12-15s and remove the (nerf 2) early game slowdown in tunnels. If you get something like Midwich, that slowdown isn't going to help Survivors, and a longer timer would help all throughout the game. The longer timer or slower starting crawl both have their merits though.
Points 1 and 2 are too linked to really explore independently but my issues are mostly with turrets.
If there actually is counterplay to the crawler form (aka flame turrets being worth a thing), I can't honestly say I have a problem with it. The problem is the lack of counterplay.
Below 3 paragraph TL:DR: kick Xeno out of power at half the partial burn recharge after the damage de-charge delay and Nerf 1 is good.
My main issue with point 2 is that while I am of the opinion that it is too easy to reaction M2 a flame turret, but the time window is tight nonetheless. With the normal 10m flame turret range, the 4.8m whip, and the 1.5s needed to be burnt out of power, you have to close 5.2m (at 4.6m/s) in ~1.13s. You can whip fairly safe during this approach window, as the hitbox lingers for .4s, and with average human reaction times of .25s visual (according to google), that leaves you at 1.38s in the worst case scenario where the turret catches you unaware and are walking parallel to it. So it requires you to be ~50% slower than the average human (which I would argue most gamers have faster reactions than the average, but I digress) in order to fail at a reaction M2 turret break. Essentially, you are designed to be able to reliably reaction hit it with that math, but you'd sit at ~90% burnt every time. With the point 2 idea, the Xeno would average out at a ~32s average recharge (from 35s fully broken out of power). This might work if a partial burn kicked out of power at half the value, (after the Damage De-Charge delay to account for twig turret blocks for a milisecond) yielding a ~16s average recharge for partial burns.
The anti-turret add-ons would make this all the more effective, with the Cereal Rations and Light Wand allowing for easier turret 'spawn kills' out of tunnels (learning the timing for the invincibility timer post tunnel). Minimizing this timer of downtime to nothing with perfect timing, or near nothing playing it safe. The 8m turret add-on would yield an average (worst case caught unaware) ~22s/11s half recharge, and the Emergency Helmet yielding an average ~23.6/11.8s half recharge, and both combined yielding an average 16.2s/8.1s half recharge. Personally I would find it odd a Brown add-on would be better than a Yellow or Green, so I'd probably swap the E-Helmet and Cereal Rations in terms of rarity if the Xeno changes took this route. Also the Light Wand would be a counterplay to the emerging counterplay with this new system. People would place turrets further to prevent 'spawn kills', and this would allow Xeno to close the gap for the new 'spawn kill'.
Also for the math above, I didn't include latency because I don't think that matters for the Killer (for burns). When I reviewed footage of Xeno burns, the bar instantly stops filling up on the Killer's screen when they break it. If latency would matter for determining turret breaks and flame duration, the math would need to be adjusted accordingly. Also there might need to be a minimum 3-5s recharge timer when kicked out from a partial burn, just so the sound cues don't overlap with the 'spawn kill' short timers.
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That quote just means the game is not interesting if I can't 4k semi-reliably. Yesterday I played about 10 surv games against xeno and 5 games as xeno. 9/10 I died, 5/5 times I won (well technically I didn't, because 2x I let 2 survivors out as they helped me practice those insane overloop shots once the game was clearly won). That's not healthy IMO.
But going to your nerfs - #1 is absolutely huge because of things @mizark3 mentioned. This nerf alone would create viable counter to the killer's power and would be enough on it's own (probably even with proposed half duration)
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"Nerf 1: Turrets no longer build up a separate gauge and then either disable Crawler mode or not depending on if that gauge is filled. Instead, Turrets will always knock the Xenomorph out of Crawler mode, but the remaining charge will be relative to the time you were hit by the flames. Similar to when picking up a survivor drops you to 75% charge. Therefore if you do successfully destroy the Turret fast enough, you will regain Crawler mode faster than if you did not."
This is a fair enough nerf but i would honestly also give Xeno a little help by giving turrets a brighter light, increase their size a little bit or something so spotting it in grass is a bit easier, this is a massive pet peeve for me when playing as him, especially since the camera is so uncomfortably close to the ground.
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in what world? i get hit by that thing when i shouldnt.
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it is same with demo. you cannot mathematically dodge a pointblank shred from demo. it is why a lot of player use STBFL on him. to dodge attack, it relies on opponent not aiming shred well. at further distances, the attack has travel time so it is more of prediction between survivor and killer however in certain situations, demo can make survivor respect the attack in attempt to dodge it but cancel attack to m1. that might as well be called the deathslinger effect. despite this, demo is still loses large % of games because you can entirely avoid mind game by dropping pallets which forces him to break it due to charge time. The pallet break is slow so survivor gets to next loop in most situations.
Xeno has no pallet break at base-kit. his entire game plan is outplaying dropped pallets. the stats he has on tail strike are justified for his gameplay style. Xeno makes pallet look like actual mind games where loops are fair interaction where killer is in the advantage for loop but survivor still has some opportunities to waste killer's time at said loops.
telegraphed tail strike would be like slinger shot. you always miss until survivor makes a poor play. by that time, all gens are done. you brute force win. no point in using turrets when the killer can be runner mode entire game and still loses to gen speed because the attack is ineffective.
I don't understand your tunnel change. your essentially complaining about lethal pursuer xeno. the idea that killer need slowdown at the start of trial makes little sense. that is something that many player have said that killer have no pressure at the start of the trial so suddenly a killer using a perk that disappears after 9 seconds is overpowered because he can get into chase quickly? he used perk slot to potencial get a strong early game. the very start of the trial for survivor is often identifying the nearest pallet to run to and identifying killer your going against. Xeno has control stations so half of the challenge is already done. Countering lethal is as simple as camping a pallet for 9 seconds. as soon as killer begins a chase or 9 second elapses, your free to work on gens/setup turrets. if you successfully deny first hit by dropping pallets, your essentially playing vs killer with 3 perk slots.
the other killer having cooldown like dredge or freddy on their TP is poorly thought out game mechanic that hurts killer early game then required. Only Sadako's makes any sense because of mori condemn mechanic. The others make a lot less sense.
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Try dodging.
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Well. That's it though. You can try to dodge, but it will just stay at that. Trying.
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yep
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.2s tail windup with .25s average visual reaction time for a total .45s reaction Xeno tail against a Resilience ~.46s fast vault is currently impossible for the Survivor to dodge.
Demo Shred takes .66s for the minimum charge and 1s for the full charge, which is still possible to dodge even without the reaction timer going into the equation. That just means it is on the Xeno to fail, rather than the Survivor to dodge. If you are 'dodging' a Xeno tail at a vault, you were going against a baby Killer, you didn't outplay them, they outplayed themself.
The major difference with Demo/Nemmy is when they fail to hit against a pallet, they break the pallet also. Xeno can only fail to hit against a pallet if they throw the game.
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So far it seems Xeno is going to end like poor Deathslinger... Predictions are overrated for survivors.
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A little brainstorming on how Turrets could be reworked:
Currently, there is a separate gauge with 100 charges, and being hit by flames increases that gauge by 66 c/s, once it reaches 100, Crawler mode deactivates and goes on full cooldown.
But Crawler mode itself is a 35 charge gauge that increases by 1c/s (8c/s in tunnels).
I think instead, flames should increase the hidden gauge by something like 150c/s instead of 66c/s, so that it fills in less than a second. Then once that gauge is filled, instead of completely resetting the power, it instantly knocks out Crawler mode at full charge and reduces the gauge by something like 15c/s. This should work out to something like 3 seconds in the flames completely depletes the gauge, but 1 second only depletes by about 25%.
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Being able to instantly appear next to a survivor before they've even had a chance to move and attempt to hide or make their way to a loop is incredibly oppressive with zero counterplay, literally no chance to play, let alone counter. It's one of the things that often leads to an instant DC. It's simply not fair in any sense.
It's precisely why teleport killers have a cooldown at the start of the game and that's for a very good reason.
Xenomorph isn't a teleporting killer though, it's more similar to the likes of Billy or Nurse, and we all know how oppressive they can be with Lethal Purser. But Xenomorph does not need Lethal Pursuer to achieve this. They can rapidly scout out all the gens within the first 10-15 seconds of a game, and see footsteps, to pounce on a survivor before they've had a chance to do much if anything.
I said this isn't as bad on Xeno as it would be on someone like Dredge or Sadako if they could TP instantly, but it's half-way there. And my suggestion isn't all that restricting. Halving the initial tunnel speed, and increasing it gradually over x seconds, wouldn't 'feel' all that different for the killer, and it wouldn't be all that impactful, as after say 10 seconds it would be up to 11m/s and then 20 seconds it could be 14m/s, etc. It would simply soften that jump start. It would still be less restrictive than Dredge/Sadako's cooldown.
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After a couples of days playing Alien, I can say that people are starting to learn not just how to avoid the tail attack effectively, but how to position the turrets so they would do what they are meant to do: Make Alien having to chose between destroying the turret and giving you a chance to get away, or lose his power while chasing you.
Some people still need to realize that because how the tail attack work the killer is able to do hits over more loops that Nemesis would be able to do, so they get overconfident thinking they are safe (specially if you fail a couple of attacks) and they end getting hit by it. Also, for the people that really thinks there is no "punishment" for failing the attack, just see the cooldown it has, and we have to take in count that you can't hold your attack to aim / mindgame like Nemesis can do with his whip.
So, who would have thought that instead of just nerfing the killer after not even a week have passed people just needed to learn how to play against it! Or in other words: There shouldn't have been any talk about any changes so soon.
Post edited by Batusalen on5 -
This clip just shows you can't use the ability effectively yet. You are trying to directly hit over obstacles (and miss fair share of those of course - that's hard). If you were dragging cursor down, all those misses would be easy hits.
Also people complain that his CD is too short - but technically this is wrong. 3s are indeed long time. What people don't realize is, that the problem is, that xeno can very quickly follow you because of 50% speed during miss CD = you are not really punished for missing hit
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Those clips are literally my second day with him, maybe game number 5-6 (I didn't count them), and I'm testing angles and in what loops I can get away with hitting with his attack. That doesn't change the fact that in this second day I already have seen people dodging it successfully and using turrets in an effective way, in contrast with my first day where it was basically free hits as they always got the turrets in places that was easy for me to destroy or avoid while in chase.
And about the 50% speed, I would agree if it wasn't because you can literally take his power away. If your power can be taken away and it is a complete burden to use it when you got it, we would be closer to another Singularity case.
I'm not even saying he doesn't need changes (maybe make the audio cue more obvious so people can hear it easily), but people wants to nerf it before even having the chance to really learn how to play as / against it, and in a couple of weeks more good survivors would be making the Alien sweat to get hits with his tail as they make Nemesis have to work to get his hits with the whip.
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The power can be "theoretically" taken away. In reality 1 addon makes it "impossible" (meaning you can loose it only if you choose to loose it).
Like this is the result of me playing the killer (and I don't blame them - the hits I got were pretty disgusting)
Notice I don't even use any turret addon to make it little bit more fair. Still... I don't blame them (2 were deadhook, 2 had 1 hook, no camp or tunnel, just Xeno play)
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The dude posts a clip compilation of other survivors being able to read and dodge the tail attack, and instead of admitting you were wrong and that you CAN and HAVE time to dodge the tail attack you go on a tangent claiming he had skill issue as xeno...
Yall trying to grasp at anything in order to justify nuking xeno so survivors can turn their brains off as usual, very disapointing.
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but they did have a chance to move. d/c on first down is one biggest survivor entitlement in this game. I do not really understand it and likely never will.
It's precisely why teleport killers have a cooldown at the start of the game and that's for a very good reason.
for very good reason. why? so killer can lose 3 gens in 1 chase? should killer d/c when their early game is sub-optimal?
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So you want him to be nerfed to the ground. The slightly lower charge time, slightly faster cooldown movespeed, and aimable vertical hitbox are the only things Xeno has over killers like Demo and Nemesis. Demo and Nemesis can break pallets. Demo, Nemesis (in tier 3), and Pyramid Head have longer range. Nemesis' attack doesn't stop when strafing past an obstacle while swinging. Pyramid Head can hit multiple people through solid objects. Demo catches up to Survivors even if he misses. Demo can choose where to put his teleportation points and Survivors don't know where they are until he uses them. And most importantly of all, Survivors have turrets against Xeno which gives them a 41m motion tracker indicating if the Xeno is nearby, how close, and how fast it's moving towards you, even while it is traversing tunnels, and also distracts the Killer and blocks its sight while you make a clean getaway.
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LITERALLY worse than Nurse and Blight combined, 4ks every game against pro level players, trust me bro I went against it 8 times in low MMR.
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The tail has travel time. It's around 0.7s from hitting the tail attack button to the Survivor getting injured. Nemesis is around 0.8s, or 0.4s if he's pre-charged his whip, which can can do when initiating it while coming around a corner, which Xeno cannot do without hitting the corner 4/5 times.
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First reasonable criticism of Xenomorph I've seen. I've had a few occasions while playing as and against him where a Survivor was trying to pick up a turret at the very start of the match and it broke in their hands as the Xenomorph came out of the tunnel at the same time.
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Just revert most of the ptb changes tbh
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Using number of DCs as a basis for a system of data collection is like using strange women lying in ponds distributing swords as a basis for a system of government.
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There is no travel time. .2s after the button is pressed, it spawns the full hitbox, and during the .4s you can 'drag' the hitbox, or more accurately it creates a new hitbox every .05s (not sure the specifics here, I saw 6-8 hitboxes in one of the tests, so that makes it likely every .05s) and checks for hits with each new hitbox. You can see that here in the sandbox test. There is no travel time, it might be you confusing the new hitbox spawn delay after you re-aim mid tail attack.
Hitting corners is probably just the player not being used to such a short delay on a Killer attack, and needing to unlearn the old muscle memory to learn Xeno's specific delay instead. It also could be like when you round a corner with a Huntress wind-up and hit the corner of the wall instead of the Survivor, so poor aim, but Huntress' hatchet is visible to see how you miss and can fix it. Xeno's miss sometimes is unclear what you are hitting.
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I mean to be fair, the Star Map is the best anti-turret add-on (only a tiny-fraction of a second better than the Green helmet). 8m Turret range means you only have to close 3.2m instead of 5.2, which shaves nearly half a second off of the reaction M2 timer. The Light-Wand also can be used to 'spawn kill' (break a turret the instant it stops tunnel malfunctioning) further turrets out of tunnels, but requires learning the timing.
Still though, Xeno is super oppressive in power, and unlike Plague/Oni, there isn't much anything to do in order to prevent Xeno from getting power back. Even if you perfectly place a turret and burn it out, it can hop back in the tunnels and jump on another gen across the map in less than 10s. If the Survivor immediately jumps back on the gen, the Xeno gets the footsteps to know not to crossmap instead. It's a lose-lose for Survivor.
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I'm cool with it not being telegraphed as long as there's punishment for missing. You should be rewarded for making them whiff and they should be punished for fumbling a hit with it.
I do like the idea of reducing the speed by half for the first 45 seconds. The gradual concept is neat since it's like the goober's warming up. :>
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But xenos right click is a far better neme whip when learned and essentially doesn't punish you for missing. Demo shred is trash in comparison.
I really don't know how people could defend the current state of missing a xeno tail. It's like if I whiffed on blight and got the affects of canker thorn + the brown add-on with the same affect(except those add-ons only affect blight if you use them intentionally).
It's why I hate adren, it's a hard add-on to use but it doesn't matter when the punishment for fing up is 2 seconds.
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I absolutely would. Same way as if someone showed me how bad Leatherface's saw was while him never using any tokens to recharge the ability. Sure it's bad if you use fraction of it's potential. Same as in the clip.
The ability shouldn't be balanced around people not knowing, that tokens recharge your ability/tail's hitbox can be adjusted mid-strike.
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It's all about statistics. This didn't happen to me before in - I don't even remember if it ever happened (then again, I shun skull merchant and knight and camping/tunneling "playstyles" and other unfun interactions). I absolutely get why they would DC against Xeno when getting hit behind tall objects. It is frustrating. That's the whole point of me giving feedback about how ######### it is going AGAINST this killer (but sure enough, it's fun to play as Xeno)
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This is the only part I'll agree could use a tweak for Xeno. Missing the tail could stand to be a little more punishing.
That being said, Canker+Foxglove don't affect Blight if you whiff.
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Xenomorph should lose his power when he gets stunned by a pallet, if that happens to Plague it should happen with him too
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No just use the flame turrets
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That was the comparison. Imagine if those add-ons did do something if you whiffed, then you combined them. That's what xeno is right now.
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The Xenomorph is fine. Survivors just need to get good.
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Plague only loses the charge she's holding, not her power. Pallet a Plague while she has her damaging vomit and she still keeps the damaging vomit until the timer naturally runs out.
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...no, plague loses her corrupt if she eats a pallet.
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oh boy. The number of times when I disabled her corrupt purge... It 100% disables her power. Like it's very risky, because if she baits it, that's 100% hit for her. But believe me - it's one of THE counterplays against her power (it's not with other types of stun, just with pallet).
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