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Was 6.1.0 Mistake?
DbD become very different game after 6.1.0 update. Both sides lost their meta perks. Both sides got some base-kit buffs.
So if you compare pre-6.1.0 DbD with current DbD, which one you would prefer?
Comments
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Refresh my memory:
Was 6.1 was the patch that:
- nerfed gens from 80 to 90 secs
- reduced killer animation after a hit
- added base regression for kicking gens
- nerfed DS
- nerfed Dead Hard
- reduced pallet break duration
etc ?
14 -
For the most part, I think the basekit changes were largely good, with the only questionable decision being not increasing hook timers to 65s when increasing gen timers to 90s. If they are working on the anti-facecamping countermeasures then this is being addressed... eventually. The only strictly bad basekit change was anti-tunnel Endurance not working with Deep Wound. If they wanted Endurance to shoulder all the burdens of anti-tunnel, then both BT and OTR needed to proc and defend someone from going down, but its fair to disallow Styptic/DH. Just because content creators made meme videos showing 11 Endurance hits at the exit gate doesn't mean that was possible in real matches, and this was the wrong message received by the Devs. OTR already is disabled in endgame, and that's all it needed. I'd even go so far as to make Endurance not Deep Wound, and a hit only takes 10s off of the timer. This would help make OTR more unpredictable in terms of how long it works, and a Nurse turbo-tunneling needs like 6 consecutive hits for a down. Wait out a Conspicuous Action if you want to tunnel the Survivor so badly.
The perk changes were everything that was wrong, with some of the most ludicrous choices I've ever seen. Best I can tell, they looked at the what while ignoring the why. What is the reason these perks are picked? Because 80% of perks are trash first off, and 15% are for niche circumstances. Then, even when it is a perk only good in niche circumstances (Calm Spirit), it isn't even proportionately stronger in dealing with that niche, so you might as well bring the generalist perks.
All of the meta perks that were nerfed arguably could have been single-nerfed, but instead were double nerfed. DS went 5s -> 3s, and lost endgame usage. In double nerfing it, they effectively deleted the perk. Pop went from 25% max -> 20% current, and now has been buffed to 30% current, so it is stronger than old Pop as long as the 4th piston is active. They managed to nerf CALM SPIRIT, like who thought that was a good idea?!?!? Heck, with the medkit changes as well, Pharmacy is now worse than Self-Care. It takes ~10s to open, with 24s to med-kit heal, so you better find a chest in less than 12s.
The worst offender to me was the nerf to Thana. They buffed Thana to 5.5% per Surv while also increasing gen times to 90s, this was obviously a bad idea, so they immediately nerfed that. How might you ask? By gutting the perk. They wouldn't revert the nerf so its back to 5% per like how it would still be buffed. It will now give 2% per Surv with a 12% boost only at 4. This makes it so as long as 1 Survivor is healthy, it is nearly a dead perk. This also encourages the current MfT Resilience overuse we are dealing with and people staying injured. If 5% or even 4.5% Thana was still in the game, I highly doubt MfT Resil would be nearly the same complaint factor.
Now there is an additional theory of mine that could explain our current scenario of Killer complaints. 6.1.0 needlessly buffed unearned regression. It was so bad, that a monkey with a spacebar could win with OC/CoB/Eruption. This means a lot of Killers were getting kills they didn't earn, and ascending their MMR to heights they can't compete in. Now that MfT comes out, the Killers that abused that 'monkey spacebar combo' can't compete against normal Survivors of their MMR, and the edge MfT gives now makes this large divide in skill colossal instead. They don't like losing, but refuse to lose enough to correct their MMR, so they play 1 bad match, call it quits, complain, and never reset to their proper 'rank'. I recognized OC/CoB/Eruption was a problem, refused to crutch on it, and I don't have that much difficulty against MfT, so that has to be the reason.
Edit: I think the fairest patch was either immediately prior to Mikeala's release (because her patch that deleted the hatch mechanic), or immediately after her patch while CoH was killswitched. Overall though there are a lot of problems 'fixed' by 6.1.0, with equally as many problems created by it. I'd have to say pre 6.1.0 was better solely for the soloq experience with less tunneling of yourself or a teammate.
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No I think it was one of the best things to happen to the game, especially now that they’ve addressed a lot of the issues the update caused.
- The base kit killer buffs didn’t have that much of an impact and in the end only really helped the weaker M1 killers so a good change in my opinion.
- The reduced post-hit speed being reduced is noticeable though and I think it was a good change to help counter the hold W meta.
- The base kit BT and Haste on unhook should’ve been in the game years ago. The later patches that since buffed it made it even better.
- Same with the 2.5% regression on gen kicks. Should’ve been base kit ages ago.
- 90 second gens are much healthier, especially now that they’ve added a bunch of new gen speed perks and nerfed most of the regression perks.
- The perk changes were for the most part good. Dead Hard needed to go and it’s now a very fair perk.
- Some perks were overnerfed, like DS and Ruin, but I do think it’s better they are needed rather than being as prominent as they were before. But they should still receive some more balance changes.
- Some perks were over buffed (Eruption, Overcharge) but thankfully they’ve been dealt with.
- Calm Spirit and Pharmacy changes were unnecessary though
Overall it’s been better for the game in the long run. It might have been a bit rough at first, but all the changes they’ve made to the update since then have removed most of the bad parts of the update and left all of the good ones and overall had made the game much healthier and more balanced. So no, I don’t think it was a mistake and was one of the best updates in the long run.
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Yea i kinda miss old Dbd but this could also be part nostalgia. I always found ways to play around old meta stuff back then and both sides felt more fun to me. I could play solo without getting mad every time. Killer was more of a challenge, sometimes unfair, but it was more exciting somehow. It feels kinda stale right now which is why i only play 1-2 times per week nowadays. I also think the old looks and animations had way more character, much darker and more horror, now the games looks more casual (some newer killers look like they're from Apex and some of the newer maps too, no horror feeling to it). The new map looks cool though.
It also feels to me like this game is putting out too much content, i can't really keep up anymore as there is just so many perks that i don't even know what they're doing. There are some killers that i have maybe played against like 5 times (Singularity) and that i have never played myself. Some killers where i don't know what their add-ons are doing. The game doesn't really need more characters and perks at this point, but i guess this is how the gaming industry in 2023 works and what all the kids expect, new content every 3 months...
Thana is this kind of perk you just can't make too good because it would be crushing and demotivating. The preconditions are very easy to meet for some killers and then having constantly 15-20% less gen speed would be too OP, especially since solos can't counter it as good as SWFs. The smarter killers also know that the survs will reset somewhere because they have to, which gives them another option to pressure (with Nurses Calling for example).
Same goes for Deadlock or Made for This, these perks are just very cheap by design and that's why they're regarded as strong and are getting used so much. Easy or no preconditions, relatively strong effect.
I think Pop or Pain Res are perks that are generally designed in a good way, they give you reward for achievements, numbers have to be properly balanced of course.
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this is a great update that has fixed it somewhere, and somewhere on the contrary has broken the balance. but despite this, somewhere deep in my soul I feel hatred for this renewal.
After all, most of these good changes have become accustomed to the modern state of the game, which I personally think is bad... let it be that it was caused rather by attempts to "make a good start. I love the change that was made then, but I perceive it more as the beginning of the end.
no seriously, they immediately made 3 for him..3! murderers of the most hated type of which 1 does his job too well...WHAT WERE THEY THINKING? the only normal killer of these 3 is a knight (he has not a bad ability to chase, and his 3gen is not so strong)
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That's why I would at least recommend a nerfed 4.5% instead of the butchered version we have now. I would view that 4.5% value with 90s gens to be as fair as Pop and Pain Res.
With the old 5% and 80s gens, the timers were 80/~84/~89/~94/100. (0/1/2/3/4 injured)
With the 6.1.0 patch 5.5% and 90s gens, the timers were 90/~95/~101/~108/~115.
With the proposed 4.5% and 90s gens, the timers would be 90/~94/~99/~104/110. This more closely follows the old pattern of +10s at each injury level that the basekit gen change was meant to effect. (80/90 84/94 89/99 94/104 100/110) This way Thana is only a problem if it was prior to 6.1, and I would argue it problem wasn't back then, especially if they were planning on buffing it.
I've always been a fan of Thana, because of the free hits it gives you when Survs try to greed a 90%+ gen. I can't tell you how many times prior to 6.1 that I got a down because of Thana exclusively, then got to Pop it from the free hook they gave me. Right now the only possible users I've found for Thana to be Legion, Plague, and Myers.
(Non-Tombstone) Myers can use current Thana only because it works on 2 fronts. The first front is everyone stays injured against Myers since you can just pop T3 whenever, so this forces the slowdown on whether they heal or not. Secondly it pairs well with the Plaything/Pentimento combo, as when you fully stack Thana with Penti, you get 50% gen slowdown, with 180s gens due to how the stacking works. Yes, it only leaves you with 1 more perk to work with, but it is the best build I've found for Myers thus far that doesn't use Tombstones. It does require hooking the first person you find to start the ball rolling ASAP though, instead of stalking a bunch of people a little or hitting and running. Its difficult but fun when you learn to make it work for you. There is a learning curve though, I lost about 3-5 matches before falling into a groove and won ~10 in a row (across multiple days).
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I prefer current more.
The problem is so many balance issues were still left untouched and finally some got changes:
Nurse, Spirit's MDR/Duration add-ons, Eruption, CoH, DH, removal of hook grab etc
but patches have been going so slow and others which need more attentions are still being ignored:
Blight's add-ons, hugely unbalanced maps, the killers that are weak & hard to learn/very boring/countered by survivors massively seem like they were forgotten from devs.
And don't forget they do terrible balancing like Borgo, Red Forest, Abattoir, Deja Vu and release new perks which feel like 2 perks are added in one.
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If 6.1.0 hadn't happened, I would probably have played only survivors and Blight with Alc Ring sometimes. So no, 6.1.0 is the best thing that ever happened to the game.
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It was bad they buffed tunneling/camping massively while pretending to fight it, increasing killrate is cool but not if you do it in the worst possible way by making cheap tactics more viable
DS nerf in particular is stupid it was already weak at 5 seconds especially against blight/nurse, and hook timers are too short in current version with 90 seconds gens and perks like pain res and deadlock, facecamp is too strong these brainless strats should be nerfed very hard to uselessness or adjusted for endgame only
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Pre 6.1 no contest. Before that patch, I actually had fun playing as survivor. I actually escaped sometimes, the game felt better balanced at my MMR. I may be a trash player, but I get stomped all the time in the current game. As a consequence, I play way less. I used to be good for 3 or 4 nights a week of 4+ hours.
Now, I check out the new patch on twitch, and inevitably decide to pass.
I still play, but very infrequently. This was a holiday weekend in the states, I think I got 1 hour of tunnelling, slugging, and just damn overwhelming killer play. I literally don't recognize the game anymore.
8 -
No, a patch like 6.1.0 had been needed for a long time.
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I'd say no, it wasn't. People seem to have forgotten why it happened - constant complaints about the meta being stale for multiple years in a row - but it was more than a good enough reason to do the perk shakeup portion. Add onto that the great basekit changes we received, and yeah, I'd say it was overall not just a success, but critically necessary.
It had some missteps, namely buffing Eruption and Thana when those were terrible ideas and not doing a great job buffing Calm Spirit and Pharmacy, but overall it was a very good idea.
7 -
Honestly 6.1.0 had some really good stuff, but even if I don't think 6.1.0 was a bad idea sometimes I'd still rather it hadn't happened at all. It feels like the game became worse and worse with every update after this one. I don't think this update in particular was the problem, but it's like BHVR did their "tweaks" to it with a hammer and have been hammering one side then the other in an attempt to balance things.
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The Version of dbd right before end transmition and after the healing changes. Dbd felt like it was on a good path. I think the introduction of MfT and other endurance effects have hurt the game overall.
Pre 6.1 was old dead hard with hit validation. That with it's 70% pick rate is a clear no go for me. Never want to go back to that.
I would like to see ds unbreakable again though. I like survivors doing stuff in my face more that survivors finishing the gens in new record times.
That being said: my casual pig build hasn't changed much to be honest. It was stbfl, Bbq, surge and Discordance before and it is Stbfl, Bbq, surge and lethal pursuer now. Not much difference. But I didn't really use the overused killer perks soooooo.... I generally liked 6.1
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What was so different for you before 6.1?
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6.1.0 was a necessaty not a mistake. If you were fine playing with and against the same 4-6 perks every single game, then good for you but most of us hated it. I will not go back to a 75% pick rate on DH. That can never happen again.
6.1.0 also reduced the strength of Shift + W. You see people complaining that the game isn't fun for them, when they actually make the game unfun for themselves. I understand that rushing the gens in 4 minutes is not all that exciting and neither is Shift + W instead of actual chasing. But for some reason this is what many survivors do instead of playing the game normally. And they die for it as soon as something doesn't go according to plan.
Base kit BT was added in 6.1.0 as well. This might be highly controversial but I think it's not such a bad thing that your solo team mates will no longer kill you by unhooking you without BT.
Ruin + Undying was also killed in that patch since Ruin is no longer a good perk. Do you want to go back to Ruin being in every game you play? Because I like that there is more variety in killer perks now. Although the removal of FTP's and BBQ's extra BP was tragic.
The reason why you look back on "old" DBD and think it was better back then is nostalgia. I miss a few things from the time I started playing too. Like the old Coldwinds. I know they were horribly unbalanced but in my opinion they had a better atmosphere the new Coldwinds. I would also like to switch back to old Haddonfield, knowing how bad it was. At least the lighting on that map wasn't as bad as it is now. I don't know why they keep doing this but for some reason there is always a grey-ish filter on the newer maps. Look at GoJ and (worse) Red Forest for example.
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It was a VERY nice change contrary to what some people think. Basekit bt, making m1's more viable (at the time) and removing the god awful unhealthy DH for distance. But now sadly we got MFT which is a perk that reduces mind game potential and makes W holding more viable for simply... getting injured oh yeah and I guess you can't use lithe or sprint burst with it.
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the problem new thana is that you cannot build any injure pressure with majority of killers to make an impact in mid-game with it. the only good usage of current thana is to play Nurse Midwich with distressing+coulrophobia+thana+darkness revealed. the other killers don't have enough chase to justify using the perk over regular regression perks.
I saw thana -action speed on generator as more of incentive to heal then actual main effect of the perk. the perk felt more supplementary anti-heal perk in the previous iterations of the perk. i preferred old version more. the only minor issue with thana in old version was that 4 people injured was not that great of penalty so people powered through it. i wish perk was more hybrid where you get 5/10/15% slower healing but on final stack, you get 20% repair penalty. more incentive to pressure entire team. these small % are too irrelevant to use the perk.
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The problem with basekit BT is it came at the price of all other forms of anti-tunnel. DS was deleted, and OTR is disabled if the Killer activates the basekit BT. If anti-tunnel Endurance could stack, it wouldn't be a problem, but BHVR saw meme videos from content creators that couldn't happen in real matches, and took that as what would happen in every match.
If you are talking about the 2 per surv +12 on all version then I completely agree it is trash. The normal complaint however with M1 Killers is MfT is too juicy for them, and people are staying injured to greed gens because it (alongside Resilience) is so juicy. I also agree that Thana's slowdown is meant to encourage healing moreso, but the current version only encourages healing when ALL are injured. The old/good version of Thana encouraged healing at all injured counts, but didn't require it either. I don't like the idea of Thana slowing down healing though, because the counter to Thana is healing. I feel like it is bad design to have it be a lose-lose. This is one of the times I agree with the dev logic on a perk. (As Thana used to also apply to heal speeds.) Like I said though, the Myers Thana/Plaything/Penti is a juicy (non-Tombstone) build, but it takes getting used to.
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Pretty fair assessment, especially of the OC/CoB/Eruption phenomenon. I was seeing some genuinely terrible killer players getting carried by those perks during that meta. Killers that had absolutely no business winning. And one thing that BHVR doesn't like to mention but has been datamined is that it takes *a lot* of games to fall back below the MMR softcap once you reach it. And I'm wondering if part of the funny business going on with matchmaking is a behind the scenes numbers tweak to try and correct the Eruption inflation.
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"Eruption inflation", that's such a perfect way to describe it. Imma steal that from now on, thanks.
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Both sides lost their meta perks.
Haha, really?
best and most used gen-regression perk before 6.1.0- pop goes the weasel VS best gen-regression perk now-pop goes the weasel.
best and most used exhaustion perk before 6.1.0- dead hard VS best and most used exhaustion perk before its recent nerfs-dead hard.
Best and most used second chance perk before 6.1.0- decisive strike VS most used second chance perk now(not counting dead hard as second chance perk)- decisive strike.
INCREDIBLE LOSES, only meta perk that got truly nerfed and "lost" in 6.1.0.- iron will. Barely see it nowadays.
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Far more the current one. I've started playing in 2020, right at Blight release. Before 6.1.0, i played mostly during events or while the Rift Pass was open.
DH was stupid, DS was kinda stupid in the hands of a good player, 4 man SWF was stupid to face; Blights/Nurse/Spirit using Ruin + Undying + Tinkerer was stupid. I also remember the times where before basekit BT a killer could just wait for a survivor to be Unhooked, down him/her, put him in the hook again and repeat until he/she died.
Really, the game is in a much healthier state now.
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the perk is still lose/lose. it is just that % of repair are too irrelevant for it to matter. the game-delay from that perk suppose to come from the longer healing times. generator delay prospect of the perk is ineffective in current form. when it was improved, it immediately was made worse.
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I dunno, agree to disagree. I much preferred 5% Thana alongside Pop when I wanted 2 slowdowns. The compounding effect is what makes it so valuable. I feel like healing is sufficient counterplay, and still gives the Survivor a benefit beyond removing the perk. Compared to Plaything which also requires a roughly equal time investment to deal with, and doesn't give the Survivor anything unless they brought a perk (Overzealous or Inner Healing for example).
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There were some good things in 6.1. Dead hard for distance and DS persisting in end game needed to be removed or changed either way (tho I still think the nerf to 3s DS stun duration was too much).
The critical flaw in the 6.1 changes was the shift from chase based perks like ruin, pop, pain res - which only function if the killer is pressuring survivors and/or getting hooks, to a 'gen kick' meta.
The gameplay turned into dropping chase to kick gens because it was easier to play PvE gen kick simulator than to chase in a PvP game. Even after several nerfs we still have issues with players holding a 3 gen for an hour until the server times out.
I feel like the gen kick meta has had catastrophic long term consequences for the game, even after perk nerfs. It's like certain players figured out they can hold games hostage and technically win, and now even have a killer specialized in doing so, and there's just no going back from that until BHVR can implement their solution.
In the end, what I really miss is the killer mantra of 'gens aren't worth the time to kick' from before 6.1.0. Chase was the most important thing in the game, and that mentality is mostly gone now.
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I wouldn't say a mistake, as I understand why they did it, but I can say I enjoyed the game alot more before it - and I never used the meta perks, so the perk changes meant nothing to me. But change isn't necessary a bad thing and all you can do is adapt to it.
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It was either 6.1.0 or 20 minute Survivor Queues. Implementing the BP incentives alone would not have convinced people to play more Killer.
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The only change I may disagree with is Survivors getting less distance when being injured, I would have rather had weaker Killers get buffs instead.
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They started to actually improve the game and make meaningful changes
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Overall net gain imo they overnerfed a lot of perks tho but that patch did a lot of good for the game
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DS was weak? Lmao. Ok maybe against a good Nurse or Blight. Besides that the perk was extremely powerful.
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Wish we had more big balance updates like these, at least 1 every year. It makes the game more interesting for a while again, its more exciting to see like 20+ perk changes on both sides and base kit changes than just new DLCs every few months.
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Pop is only back into meta NOW. It was totally absent aber 6.1 patch
DH was way over 50% pickrate before 6.1, took a nose dive after 6.1, survivors adepted to it, making it strong again, and dipped down to 8% after tha lst nerf. It's still strong, esp. with Mft, but I wouldn't call it meta anymore. Even in Mft Builds, Resi, Hope or windows are used way more.
DS was also at insane pick rate before 6.1, and is down to 4% now (according to Nightlight). Even nerfed Iron Will has a highe pick rate (5%). That totally matches with my experience, there's hardly any lobby with one DS, not to mention two of it. Still strong, but far from Meta right now.
Only Iron Will being "lost"? When did you see BT the last time? Basekit BT makes the perk basically irrelevant. Pickrate of 2%.
The Meta Perks before 6.1, DS, DH, BT and IW, ALL got hit pretty hard (DH took some more tries, granted), and all are below 10% pick rate now. Down from 50%+ pick rate.
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My looping skills are mid. The faster weapon wipe, the short speed burst, the longer gen repair times, faster pallet breaking times all contributed to make the killer more overbearing and matches much less successful. Before 6.1 my looping skills, could occasionally loop a killer of my skill level until they gave up. Better killers could still get me down in 1 tile, so <15 seconds. Now all killers win the chases against me in less than 20 seconds, unless I burn every single pallet on the map. Holding 'w' is not a fun chase mechanic for either side, its just what there is.
The increase in generator time gave rise to the worst period of camping and tunnelling the game has ever seen in my 3 years of playing. For some reason these strategies are super effective, so killers learned the wrong lessons (camping = victory). Maybe that isn't true, at Otz, JRM, or OhToFu levels of play, but is demonstrably true at mine. And despite what most people may think, this is not fun!
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yeah 5 seconds was already weak did you play the game ? the only nerf needed was disabling it endgame because it was free escape next to a door that's it, 3 seconds it's not even worth picking the perk now
only decent anti tunnel is OTR and it's useless against actual tunneling because killer will hit your basekit BT anyway
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Yes the game has been slowly and slowly becoming more unfun since that patch
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People really underrate BT. You basically give 26 seconds of speed boost and invulnerability to ANYONE you are saving. Its only save perk that works after last gen repaired. Its not bad and definitely not out of meta.
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6.1.0 could have literally just been the line "We took Dead Hard around the back and shot it" and it would still be one of the best patches this game has ever had
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It wasn't inherently a mistake, but the implementation was horribly executed.
They touched a lot of small and big variables all at once, instead of taking things one at a time, seeing how the playing field was balanced afterwards and tweaked the upcoming nerfs or buffs accordingly.
Despite how big BHVR likes to talk about "taking time to collect data and stats to avoid overtuning" they sure as hell randomly nuked half a dozen of gameplay elements and made the game significantly more miserable to play.
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Some things yes... other things no
Adding more time onto the Gens was decent
But nerfing the "meta" perks just because... is wrong
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Absolutely not. The truth is, metas aren't fun at all, not for either side. If a perk becomes necessary, everyone loses a perk slot. Perks are way more fun now that I'm free to play with them. Weaker perks got stronger, OP perks got weaker. I wouldn't have voted for it if BHVR were a democracy, I didn't see a problem until it was solved. Neither side should win because of perks, it should be decided in-game by playing.
But I'm invigorated. I didn't know what it felt like to have four perk slots, BBQ and Chili existed and I just couldn't turn down the double BP. No advantage could offset that in my mind.
Now we can experiment, in the old days, a killer trying new things usually meant going in expecting to lose even if it worked.
I'm just all around very happy with both DBD and Behavior. I complained my fair share about the devs, but now I got nothing but love for 'em. I'm not saying everything's perfect, but overall, everything moved a whole lot in the right direction.
I honestly can't muster up any negativity. I had to completely redo every loadout, many of my old tricks no longer work, and I couldn't be happier about it.
Ok, I gotta quit wasting time here talking about it and get in the fog.
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Meta is not defined by a perks power / potential, but by its pick rate. And BT with a measly 2% is certainly NOT meta right now. I cannot even remember when I last saw it on a survivor in my killer lobbies, and seeing it in effect actually i even rarer (can't remember a single instance were I counted to 10 after an unhook and did not get the down bc of the perk.
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Im sorry to hear.
Sadly the only advice I could give you is to improve your looping.
I know this sounds dumb and generic.
The changes in 6.1 where done to help out killers that struggle hard. Sadly the ones that already had chill games got stronger as well. Camping and tunneling sadly got buffed because ds was nerfed and spreading hooks was disincentivised due to the nerfs to ruin and pop. Soloq again got punished the hardest.
Im sure that you know but if you struggle hard with tunneling use ofr or ds (still good if it's not a nurse, Blight or spirit). Even dh is still a solid anti tunnel perk combined with the other two.
I appreciate your dislike for shift w though. Agree that it is the most boring way to play the chase.
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