Regarding MMR ... yesterday I got matched with a 20h killer
Hello everyone,
I don't want to make a big wave, but yesterday, when soloQ-ing, I got thrown as obvious backfill into a group of three survivors who had all already readied up.
We were thrown into RPD and encountered a Nemesis; I am not the best survivor, as I am more of a killer main with probably a 70/30 split in favor of killer, but most of the time I can at least pull my weight. Well, I got found first, managed to loop Nemi all over the map and eventually shake him off, while the gens were flying. He got a couple of hooks and even got my one time, but during the end game collapse he got a down in front of the main gate and I managed to help that survivor wriggle off by bodyblocking the entry and confusing Nemi long enough.
Well, a lot of things felt odd and in the post game chat is became apparant, that this player got only 20h total in DBD! Thats nuts! The other survivors got various amounts of 300-1000h, but I myself got 2300h. I don't know ... maybe sub 100-200h players should get a special border. Mean spirited survivor will always bully a weak killer, but at least the decent ones could adjust their playstyle a bit. I felt really sorry for that player with their 20h into the game and getting paired up with what was essentially a death squad not playing serious.
Comments
-
If i was new player and get matches like that , i would remove this game for forever.
Garbage matchmaking.
9 -
I don't really remember who I managed to grind through back when I started in 2021, but yeah, it actually couldn't get any worse then this here.
1 -
I mean lobby-shopping is pretty much a necessity for many killers to actually be able to have fun in the game, but yes they should fix the backfilling breaking MMR.
3 -
Oh yeah, I didn't think about that, but thats most likely it.
1 -
It really is not. With the MMR at least somewhat accurate when nobody dodges the Lobby, it means that the Killer will most likely not have a guaranteed 4K, but they also wont be destroyed either. So if they lose, they wont feel powerless and if they win, it will not be easy.
The people who have the big disadvantage because of Killers dodging Lobbies until they find the most inexperienced group are Killers like in OPs post. Brand-new people who got into a game they should not be in. It should just not be the case that Killers can cherrypick their games and inexperienced players have to play against Survivors who are far stronger than they are.
I already wrote it a few times, but I experienced a P0 Trapper (Console, so no idea how many hours) without Tier 3-Perks who went up against our Survivor-Team which consistet of 2 2 man SWFs with 20k hours combined. They did not get bullied, but they surely did not have any chance. And that is because someone else chickend out, possibly a Killer with thousands of hours themselves. And this is just not fair.
And BHVR apparently think the same if they are starting to remove information from the Pregame-Lobby (with testing to not show the Prestige-Level). This is way too less and does not really help (I still have 8600 hours, even if I play my P5-Ellen, so Prestige Level does not really work anyway to see how experienced someone is..), but it is a start. Other possibilities would be to punish Lobby-Dodging like DCs or increase the wait timer for each time you dodge a Lobby. There are multiple solutions.
But having Killers cherrypick their games to have some new Players end up in Lobbies they should just not be in is not a solution.
13 -
I think that is only true for Killers who only queue up for free wins. They dodge until they roll the dice into a baby Surv lobby. Just gotta take the wins and losses in stride. If I get matched with 4 P100s in the same skin, I roll the dice of them being the goofiest group or the sweatiest group. (IME they are more often the goofs than the sweats.)
Also if a Killer never tests their skill against someone who might be better than them, they will never improve, and only raise their MMR by beating people that were never a threat. They will then go against more Survivors that actually are better than them, and will lose because of their own self-sabotage done previously by lobby-dodging/shopping.
10 -
Its wild how the sardonic comments about killers lobby shopping always come out in these conversations, but not enough people say anything about fixing mmr when backfilling. It would fix the issue just as well.
3 -
Because this would further increase queuetimes. And if we consider that Killers who are more experienced at the game are more likely to dodge, this means that Survivors might wait a while before some Killer decides that they want a slight challenge.
3 -
They wouldnt be more likely to dodge if they only had equal matches, since backfilling wouldnt match them with lower MMR. The only reason to lobby shop would be if the survivors had something that indicated it would be a rough game, like 4 toolboxes. Even then, survivors can always last second switch like they do now anyway.
0 -
This is what happens when you have a game with a dwindling playerbase where que times are prioritized over any other metric and the dev just basically go, fine, whatever goes.
There are very few new players so in order to avoid waiting for more than 5 seconds, they are pitted against 1800+ MMR Blights, Nurses etc.
Everyone is throwing backfill around like the second coming of Jesus Christ, so I'm REALLY curious what they will blame once lobby dodging gets disabled (I think Mandy confirmed this was at least on the discussion table, but I could be misremembering). Because even if backfill gets disabled, the rest of the problems don't get solved. Which is that Hockey Based Matchmaking is laughably inept at pairing people of similar skills together and that there isn't a big enough new playerbase to have fast lobbies for complete beginners.
I honestly believe that they should play against and with bots. I understand that people play multiplayer games for the social interaction, but both they and the other survivors are getting shafted while Killers can go around saying that Pig is actually perfectly viable.
2 -
Nope the matchaking is not working to make matches balanced. I get regularly P400 swf squads on killer and P100 killers on survivor. Im not amazing killer or survivor die most my games. On killer maybe I can secure kill or two agains't them but win is out of question unless they mess up. On survivor I mostly face OP wesker and blight players on their M+K pc setup.
0 -
I'm not sure what has been going on with matchmaking but I've also had some survivors that played their first match against me. I'm not a professional DBD tournament player but that shouldn't happen. One game it was the other way around. I have 2.3k hours in the game and consider myself to be somewhat decent but I can't keep up with a 30k hours SWF that runs their strongest builds on a map of their choice. At least I got to have some fun chases against these guys and they were pretty good sports.
I've also noticed this when I play survivor. I'm beginning to suspect that it's not caused by backfilling because if it was, why was it never this bad before? I had a Legacy 3 Dwight with 7k hours as a team mate the other day, who could loop the killer for days.
2 -
It punishes new killers like the example in OP's post, and it punishes survivors too. Sometimes really experienced killers are the ones who backfill into average or low MMR survivor lobbies. I'll have games on where I 12 hook at 4 or 5 gens and it's pretty clear I backfilled into it. I feel bad when it happens.
Zero-logic backfills shouldn't be happening and players shouldn't be able to freely dodge any lobby they want. The game needs a lobby dodge penalty. The type of player who constantly dodges lobbies is typically a player that doesn't actually want a balanced game anyway.
7 -
no it's not. they need to take the losses and lower their mmr.
lobby shopping, causes issues.
4 -
mandy absolutely DID NOT confirm this.
mandy just said it on a whim as an example of what could help mmr work.
people say they want equal matches over fast queues... but that is usually a lie, people wanna get into a damn game fast.
also... who tf says pig is fine?
2 -
New player experience is terrible, its why i think they should remove the level restriction on perk equip, it doesn't matter if you're killer or survivor.
0 -
I have honestly rarely seen it this way. Sometimes I get into games where the Survivors are way below my level, but I always think that I maybe did not play the Killer enough in the past time so my MMR on them dropped.
But yeah, this can also happen, this is true. But we wont see complaints about this here.
IMO Lobbydodging should also go into the DC-penalty. Including quitting out in the Loading Screen. As compensation they could also remove quickswitching so that Killers can prepare.
2 -
And while they are at it, also show the other survivors in the lobby the 4 little perk symbols over their heads or something like that.
1 -
Lobby dodging wouldn’t matter if matchmaking was strict. It’s just reverting to pre 6.1.0 matchmaking.
The question is why devs can’t revert to pre 6.1.0 matchmaking?
Is it really lobby dodging all the time, or are there occasions where a Killer of similar skill level isn’t available for matchmaking, forcing the game to grab someone from higher or lower rank?
0 -
It's not that people don't want to test themselves it's that unless your playing nurse or blight its usually an auto-loss. It's a competitive game and killer's want to have fun too and not just camp a hook and hard tunnel the first survivor downed because of dogmeat gen speeds and broken maps.
1 -
I don't lobbyshop to look for baby teams, those games are miserable for everyone involved. However, if I end up against multiple high prestige survivors or multiple TTVs who are obviously SWFing, then I'm gonna dodge.
Yes, high prestige doesn't -always- mean the survivors are amazing but most of the time it does, and the times when I -don't- lobby dodge and decide to play the game, it's almost always miserable and kills my drive to continue playing.
I'd completely understand if they removed lobby shopping, but as long as it's an option, for my own mental health I'm gonna do it, and it's clear -many- other killer players do the same.
Again, the bigger issue that needs fixing is backfilling ignoring MMR, that shouldn't be a thing.
5 -
Agreed. And sometimes I load into a lobby and see another killer sitting there with the survivors or another blatantly obvious cheater. Been a while, but it has happened in the past. There are legitimate reasons to back out of lobbies.
It could be on an hourly or bi-hourly cooldown. Immediate re-queue on the first, 1 minute timer on the second, 3 minute on the third, and so on. Just something to make it really annoying for killers who dodge any lobby that doesn't look like an easy 4k and survivors who dodge teammates based on cosmetics/prestige/platform.
4 -
It is only an auto-loss if they have trained themself to believe that. If a Killer goes into a match with the mindset "I need the most kills possible" instead of "I want to get the most hook actions possible" or "I want to learn something new this match", then they are sacrificing their long-term enjoyment for a cheap thrill in the short-term.
This can be prominently shown by Killers who utilized Eruption, and fell prey to "Eruption Inflation". Their MMR skyrocketed far beyond what their skill could handle, so they now have to crutch on broken Killers to be nearly as effective. If they were already crutching on those broken Killers, then they now find the game "unplayable", because they set themselves up for failure. If a Killer starts learning with the weakest Killers, then playing any stronger Killer is like taking off the weights, and can then find the game too easy. To an extent this MMR inflation also can happen when relying too heavily on camping and tunneling.
Edit:
Hey, when playing as Survivor in soloq, I encourage everyone to dodge Feng and Mikaela mains. Those matches are a lost cause from the lobby, especially if they are Anon mode and/or have VAC bans on record.
5 -
Seconding this. I do not want to play against TTVs. They are almost unanimously toxic people in equally toxic SWFs who are awful to play against. I do not play this game to be used as a chew toy by clout-chasing streamers. They are the primary reason I dodge lobbies as killer, and I'd dodge TTV killers as survivor too if I could, because both sides are bad and have thrown good amount of abuse at me.
1 -
True. When Lobbydodging is not really possible without a penalty anymore, it should be fine to show the other Survivors the Perks of their teammates in the Lobby without the fear of them dodging because someone does not play full meta or something like that.
I mean, I understand this, but this is also the reason why the DC-Penalty starts low. So even if you would get a penalty, it would be a small one and you would probably not notice it anyway since it is gone when you return to the game.
1 -
Personally I would also remove all the information aside from Characters and Items. Gameplay-wise there is 0 reason why someone should see the Profile of another player before the game starts. This would remove things like dodging because of hours, SWFs or Streamers. I also dont really think that going against TTVs is that different. Most of them only stream to a handful of viewers anyway.
And while you might not lobbydodge to get the easiest games, I know people do. There is a streamer I know (dont watch them, because they are unbearable to watch), but they have 14k hours, are a Nurse-Main since the start (including Legacy) and still check every profile in the Lobby and dodge. This might be an extreme example, but you would guess that someone with that many hours on the strongest Killer in the game might not need to lobbyshop. And if someone like that does it, others do it was well.
When it comes to backfilling ignoring MMR.. This is due to queuetimes. BHVR wants to keep them low and it is understandable. I mean, if I look at my games when I play Survivor (evening, incentive is on Killer at this point in my region) - lets say it takes 1-2 minutes for searching a game. Then we are in the Lobby, Killer checks profiles and dodges. Now the next Killer will need like 20 seconds to be in the Lobby, starts checking profiles (takes maybe 20 seconds as well) and dodges. And this repeats a few times. This adds up. And if we consider that this is with MMR not being that relevant for the Matchmaker, it might just increase to unreasonable times the Survivors have to wait in the Lobby for no real reason. Now WITH MMR being a big factor when it comes to backfilling, it will probably take really long for a new Killer to be in the Lobby (compared to now) and if they dodge again...yeah.
3 -
"I don't lobby dodge to get easy games. However, I lobby dodge to get easy games"
2 -
Stricter MMR would clearly affect survivor queue times, hence why nothing gets done. I’m getting killer games in maximum 30 seconds at perk time. Mostly less than 20 seconds.
In a 4 vs 1 there will obviously usually be slightly longer wait times for the 4, but I have a feeling that with stricter matchmaking those queue times would be too long in the eyes of BHVR.
0 -
It insane. I have 2k hours mostly on killer, but I do play survivor sometimes. I'm never matched with newbies on killer but on survivor imconstantly playing with baby killers and survivors. I mean I'm not the best survivor out there but theres no way im equal in skill to the meg with yellow sprint burst.
0 -
Oh I completely understand why they throw MMR out of the window for backfilling. People already waited to get into the lobby and BHVR doesn't want them to have to wait again every time someone leaves. And it's probably the smart choice, regardless of what people say, more people prefer unbalanced, fast games over long queue times. It's also why I don't think they ever will add MMR to backfilling, which is a shame.
It probably is best to remove information for the killer in the lobby, if they make it impossible to check hours for people who do that, and even to see prestige and player names it'd reduce lobby dodging hugely, I know I'd almost never do it without all that info.
As long as it remains though I'm gonna use it.
Argueably true. Technically I do lobby-dodge to get easier games. However I'd much prefer go against people who are actually closer to my skill level rather than babies. I just don't want to go against people much better than me, and if I can do anything to reduce the chance of that appening, I'm gonna do it.
If matchmaking actually worked, then I wouldn't need to as I wouldn't get matched against much better survivors in the first place, and I also would never get matched against babies.
Post edited by Krazzik on0 -
Backfill is surely an issue (and one they have been saying they want to address for a long time now), but even without it, the real issue is the ridiculously low MMR cap. They say only few players are at the cap, but you have to keep in mind that they think of the playerbase hollistically, meaning that statement includes the, what, about 80% of players that are below 100 hours and launch the game once in a blue moon, if ever? I wouldn't be surprised that, if you were to exclude all players below a beginner-level hour count and look at those that play even just semi-regularly, easily half or more of them will be well at or above the cap. And the players at that cap can range from a 500-hour Meg that even with Windows Of Opportunity has a habit of avoiding pallets, to a 5000-hour Blight whose only difficult decision to make is whether to equip Adren Vial or Alch Ring for his next 4k-at-4-gens-standing match.
There must be reasons for BHVR to have if anything seemingly only gone further and further down with the cap, even in the face of what I assume is more and more people climbing in MMR. Whether it's queue times or the belief that players actually don't want their matches to be all too evenly-matched, I wonder whether implementing the option to pick between "strict" and "lax" matchmaking could be feasible. This would essentially be the "competitive queue" mode, only you don't even have to separate queues, you just change the search parameters, such that these people still can end up in the same lobbies, but preferentially end up with others. And since it's an option the player can pick, they will either accept the potentially increased queue times, or they can always pick the "lax" option if queue times are otherwise too long.
0 -
The last part you said about "not everyone wants even matches" rings somewhat true, I guess. I remember how I notices an uncomfortable increase in sweat, when I played back when the MMR system was implemented. After a string of mostly 3k + 4k matches I suddenly had to sweat like I was playing the finals in a tournament, but it was jsut a casual Tuesday. Back when survivors where at the high of their power, I bet that the good survivors I matched with had a lot of fun looping me and showing off all their tricks, but I burned out so fast from all the sweat every day, every game. I remember a lot of complaints that you shouldn't hesitate as a killer to, well, kill and be punished for being good, but exactly that is what it felt like. The occasional sweaty game was ok, but only sweat all the time burned me out and I probably wasn't alone, as this lead to the decline in killer population and eventually the 6.1 shakeup.
Before somewhat chimes in with some wisecrack "ah, I get it, you only want to stomp babies", no, thats not the case, but there needs to be some kind of middle ground between stomping newbies and sweating your arse off. Or at least a certain range. Evenly matched parties at the higher level means extremely well coordinated teams of survivors, so the killer has to bring their absolute a-game and pay dearly for even the slightest mistake, while many survivors at that level revel at showing off their looping skills and how invincible they are. The skills might be evenly matched, but the stress level is skewered and thats why killers at high level burn out much more easy then survivors. So by widening the MMR brackets and allowing some uneven matches, you give everyone some moments to shine, before it is back to the sweat mill.
At least in theory. Even with wider brackets, matchups like the one in my first post shouldn't be happening.
0 -
I'm a >3kh devotion 16 prestige 55 Nurse and I often get matched against players who don't know what the hatch is.
The MMR sometimes fails, dramatically.
0
