Why will Trapper still need to go away from Survivors & Generators to get/use his power?
Per the update, "The Trapper fills a very unique role in Dead by Daylight. Since he is all over the cover and is unlocked right away, he ends up being a lot of people’s first experience playing as Killer. Because of this, we try to keep him as simple and straightforward as possible: See a trap, set a trap."
So, people's first experience as Killer is needing to go away from Survivors & Generators to get/use their power? How does that experience prepare a new player to use any other Killer on the roster?
What's the rationale for keeping Trapper uniquely handicapped?
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well you see...
they wanna keep him simple and straightforward.
starting with all your traps is complicated... I guess.
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Or just make him like Huntress/Trickster and let him take traps from his lockers. I'm pretty sure no new player ever lost a game because grabbing new hatchets from a locker was somehow complicated and counter intuitive. If anything it makes it easier to understand for new players.
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It's not that deep. If you read further he does quite well in lower MMR. Apparently it's not much of a handicap for new people.
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They refuse to listen to the players that is all. They should give Trapper the purple bag as basekit, and then people who wants to play pick up Trapper can do so by using the green bag addon so that option of playing old Trapper still exist. The haste thing is a good change and also survivors should have to mend if they escape a bear trap so that addon should also be basekit.
Trapper will still be the worst killer in the game after next patch. Poor poster boy!
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The issue is with giving him basement bag every match is in higher levels he can very easily lockdown the basement or certain hooks. Even with this new unhook camp thing he could do this.
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Giving him all his traps at the start of the match is a bad idea even disregarding what the devs want wrt keeping him simple. It's not a feasible way to improve him.
No matter what, Trapper is going to collect his traps from elsewhere, even if the devs decide to radically overhaul him somewhere down the line. Starting with all his traps encourages his most unhealthy gameplay while doing nothing to enable the healthier alternatives.
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This.
The proper solution to trapper is to identify the biggest problems he has, and they aren't around "collecting his power". But the fact that he requires so much setup time, his traps are often in bad places (RNG) and the fact that his power is useless during a chase and that RNG can dictate survivors getting out of traps super quick. On the flip side, he is miserable to go against because he can lock down areas so that he can 3 gen like crazy or make basement impossible to escape. So to fix trapper, i would do at least some of the following:
- Trapper now always starts with 2 traps, and can hold 3, rework all bag addons (even purple) to use a new mechanic listed below
- Trap setting speed is increased to 1.5 seconds (from 2.5 seconds) to make it faster to set up in a chase.
- Disarming a trap now takes 8 seconds (from 3.5 seconds). (Rework coil addons, basically they become basekit)
- Remove the RNG escape time, right now its 1.8 seconds, with a 16.67% chance but guaranteed at 6 attempts. So that means that on average, it'll take 3-4 attempts to free yourself. Just normalize it, so its a single 8 second bar to make yourself escape
- Keep the bonus for rescuing another survivor so it takes 1.5 seconds still (encourages survivors to stick together)
- Trapper gets a secondary ability that allows him to spend 3 seconds on a trap he has placed to "bury it/disguise it" effectively making it, nearly invisible to the survivor. However, once buried, the trap is no longer able to be picked up, survivors can still disarm it if they see it, and once it has been disarmed or activated, it is no longer buried, but can be picked up again. This deals with some maps just not having grass, or indoor maps like the game.
- Rework the iri addons so that one of them ties into this "bury/setup" playstyle.
- If a trap is placed within 16 meters of another trap, the previous trap is disarmed (to fix basement camping and 3-gens), might need to lower to like 12 meters
- Can't place traps within 16 meters of a hook, and any traps around a hooked survivor are automatically disarmed to prevent hook camping.
- Normalize trap RNG placement such that a single trap spawns next to every single generator, so that the trapper no longer has to go out of his way to collect traps.
- Unset/disarmed traps can now be picked up while moving, but set ones must still go through the animation.
- Fix the hitbox of traps so that survivors can't vault over them, or any weird shenanigans like that. Either the hitbox, or make it so if you place it RIGHT next to a window survivors will get trapped by it when they vault to make placement a bit easier.
So, in summary. Traps become stronger in a chase, traps are nerfed for basement/3-genning/area denial RNG is normalized so trapper can reliably grab traps around the map, and survivors can know exactly how long it takes to escape a trap. To fix maps that just have no good trap spots, trapper can "hide" a trap by basically making it invisible, at the cost of not being able to move it (so if survivors see you do it for example, the trap becomes useless/weak). Make it faster for the trapper to pickup traps that are at those gens by allowing him to pick up disarmed traps while moving. Traps have to be spaced out more, so no more 3-genning or basement camping with them. And you can't place them near hooked survivors to prevent camping.
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Fine idea, I would say we should keep an eye on that no traps next to each other thing to make sure we don't limit his anti loop potential too much. But overall I do like all those changes, can work for low and high level players.
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Yes i love it fixes almost all the issues trapper has in one go.
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He can already do that.
Extra traps do not change this.
Having few traps encourages you to keep them closer and not spread them out too much. So basement trapper becomes more atractive.
Also having few traps, and having to go back and pick them up, means you can't really afford to actually use them in chase.
So... literally the reverse of what you said.
Amount of traps is not what will stop basement trapper. Set a max range between traps, or something else. This ain't it.
Gut reaction... why do I need to spend 4.5 seconds setting a trap on 90% of the maps?
But I'm in a hurry... let me come back to it later
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Numbers could be tweaked, but this would basically make the trap invisible, so you can put it out in the open and it will not be seen.
I'm basically saying, slap these changes on the PTB and make tweaks from there.
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It's the fact that traps don't do anything without you there to follow up on them that encourages you to place them in the same general area, and that's also not the same as basement camping or immediately setting up all your traps around your first hook, which are the two things people take issue with and think giving him all his traps at the start will encourage.
You're right, you can't really afford to both set up a web of traps and use them in chase. You have to pick, and that's not really a genuine flaw. He's a setup killer, that's how he's designed.
I think the problem here is highlighted by your last line in your response to me, where you talk about stopping basement Trapper. That isn't the point, the point is that players will take whatever shortcut is easiest and shows the least resistance while using powers. Take a look at Artist or Knight, who share the issue of people forcing survivors to run away from loops to eventually get an M1. Is that their strongest playstyle? No, not at all. Is it how they're designed to be played? No, it isn't. Is it easy and straightforward and gets just enough results to not be counterintuitive? Yes, and that's why it's so prevalent.
If you give Trapper all his traps at the start of a match, basement Trapper and just setting everything down around your first hook for proxy camping become the easiest way to play him by far. That means players will do it, and that would be bad, because it's both more stale gameplay and it's not reaching Trapper's potential from a design standpoint.
Stopping Basement Trapper is another matter entirely, but you'd have to do that well in advance of ever considering giving him all his traps from the start. Once you have done that, and it is completely solved, you can start to think about how to change Trapper's kit such that players are still incentivised to place their traps tactically instead of either forcing survivors to leave loops mid-chase or proxy camping their first hook if you were to give him all his traps from the start. Naturally, Trapper can do those things already, but they have a higher barrier for entry and you do not want to make them easier for him to do.
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^ This is actually really a good idea.
Also that would open up for some interesting builds with him, making locker perks viable
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I do that 90% of the time when i play trapper as he is now, i do not camp but if i do see other survivors near im not moving away.
Give the killer some time to move from the hook before going near.
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I think the logic is thus:
-at the top level, starting with all your traps AND being able to pick them up & relocate them is too strong
-at the bottom level, placing your traps and then not being able to relocate them is too punishing on people who don't know how to play just yet
personally i do think trapper needs quite a bit more to become viable and i agree he should be given more; i'm simply trying to fathom their reasons for keeping it this way
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There is a different between "I want to do it because I want to but its not effectively" and "I do it because its too effective"
No one uses Hope with Dark Theory because its not effective. But everyone use Hope with MFT because its too effective. People always want to do the most effective options available (want to camp with most traps and want to stack multiple haste perks).
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I'm of the opinion that keeping his traps on the ground is fine... so long as they make them spawn in the middle. There is no reason that I should spawn in on Autohaven and have to walk to a McMillan map just to gain control of my power.
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the barrier of entry is... the exact same. 2 or 20 traps. it makes no difference, congrats.
You're right, you can't really afford to both set up a web of traps and use them in chase. You have to pick, and that's not really a genuine flaw. He's a setup killer, that's how he's designed.
you are the one saying we can't give the setup killer their setup in the first place... I'm saying, let him have his traps. adjust the power some other way if needed. walking around to pick them up is just busy work and not interesting or fun.
bubba exists...
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I now have time
The proper solution to trapper is to identify the biggest problems he has, and they aren't around "collecting his power".
just mostly really annoying and unnecessary
But the fact that he requires so much setup time,
I think if he had all his traps this would be mostly fine... probably still need some sort of recall power.
his traps are often in bad places (RNG)
this falls under "collecting his power" btw
and the fact that his power is useless during a chase
mostly useless. you can do stuff like faking puting a trap down so they run, or putting a trap down in a loop before hand so they have to take a long way around the loop but you have the addon that allows you to walk on traps so you catch them... it's mostly useless.
and that RNG can dictate survivors getting out of traps super quick.
I've been wishing for a fixed timer for awhile now...
On the flip side, he is miserable to go against because he can lock down areas so that he can 3 gen like crazy or make basement impossible to escape. So to fix trapper, i would do at least some of the following:
he can certainly do those...
depends on the 3 gen really.
Trapper now always starts with 2 traps, and can hold 3, rework all bag addons (even purple) to use a new mechanic listed below
Trap setting speed is increased to 1.5 seconds (from 2.5 seconds) to make it faster to set up in a chase.
so far so good
Disarming a trap now takes 8 seconds (from 3.5 seconds). (Rework coil addons, basically they become basekit)
this is quite insane...
Remove the RNG escape time, right now its 1.8 seconds, with a 16.67% chance but guaranteed at 6 attempts. So that means that on average, it'll take 3-4 attempts to free yourself. Just normalize it, so its a single 8 second bar to make yourself escape
I would say 12 seconds... feels better. we would need to test the numbers
Keep the bonus for rescuing another survivor so it takes 1.5 seconds still (encourages survivors to stick together)
god no... 3 seconds. like, at least give me a chance to catch up...
Trapper gets a secondary ability that allows him to spend 3 seconds on a trap he has placed to "bury it/disguise it" effectively making it, nearly invisible to the survivor. However, once buried, the trap is no longer able to be picked up, survivors can still disarm it if they see it, and once it has been disarmed or activated, it is no longer buried, but can be picked up again. This deals with some maps just not having grass, or indoor maps like the game.
no idea how I'm burying stuff in cement... but 3 seconds is too much. in most maps this is basically necessary if you want hidden traps at all.
Rework the iri addons so that one of them ties into this "bury/setup" playstyle.
in what way? auto bury?
If a trap is placed within 16 meters of another trap, the previous trap is disarmed (to fix basement camping and 3-gens), might need to lower to like 12 meters
I say whatever the distance of one shack door to the other is. plus a meter or 2 to make sure
Can't place traps within 16 meters of a hook, and any traps around a hooked survivor are automatically disarmed to prevent hook camping.
can we do victor rules? if it was already there, it doesn't count. feels more in line with the planning type of character trapper is supposed to be
Normalize trap RNG placement such that a single trap spawns next to every single generator, so that the trapper no longer has to go out of his way to collect traps.
still hate this rng... we need something else. like... give him a timer.
at max there's 8 traps on the map after the update plus whatever trapper starts with right? let's go with what you said, starts with 2, max 3 carry capacity.
so, just to have a number, every 1 minute, when trapper has an empty slot for a trap, a trap appears in his "inventory".
if he has no space, the timer just loops and nothing happens.
traps on the map can never go over the max number. which is 10 I believe.
we can even rework an addon to make the timer replace a disarmed trap on the map for a new one on the inventory.
just really tired of trap rng...
Unset/disarmed traps can now be picked up while moving, but set ones must still go through the animation.
as in, I just passively get them from walking over them? why even have the trap spawn rng in the first place then? just give trapper another way to get traps. or just give him his traps. give me a more interesting or engaging way to waste time.
Fix the hitbox of traps so that survivors can't vault over them, or any weird shenanigans like that. Either the hitbox, or make it so if you place it RIGHT next to a window survivors will get trapped by it when they vault to make placement a bit easier.
well, yeah.
So, in summary. Traps become stronger in a chase,
because you set them faster? not really. will achieve the same as fake putting a trap down. but you do set up faster which gets you in chase faster.
traps are nerfed for basement/3-genning/area denial
kinda
RNG is normalized so trapper can reliably grab traps around the map,
if it's reliable, is it really rng?
To fix maps that just have no good trap spots, trapper can "hide" a trap by basically making it invisible, at the cost of not being able to move it (so if survivors see you do it for example, the trap becomes useless/weak).
yeah it does. and that thing happens frequently. with much faster trap times. so... hard to justify spending the time on it.
Make it faster for the trapper to pickup traps that are at those gens by allowing him to pick up disarmed traps while moving. Traps have to be spaced out more, so no more 3-genning or basement camping with them. And you can't place them near hooked survivors to prevent camping.
why are people so married to the idea of trapper picking traps around the map at the start of the match? just why?
it's not fun. it's not interesting. it's not engaging. it's just busy work that sometimes even ######### you over with rng.
it's like when someone always keeps their old thing and works around it's many many issues, instead of just getting a new thing that actually functions properly.
the old does not work anymore, get a new thing
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As a trapper especially with basement bag you want to lockdown a basement. It is just objectively the smartest thing to do since you can proxy camp to a disgusting degree whilst 100% denying a save.
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There's already a killer that starts the trial with all of their traps, and that's hag. Not saying that they can't share that trait, but think about the gameplay.
Hag hooks their first survivor and spends the next minute setting every trap at the hook.
You can do that with the purple bag for trapper, but the trade off is that those traps can't ever be moved again.
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I would increase the amount of traps you can carry to 3 and make the iri add on which reset traps as basekit maybe just slightly longer cooldown.
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The barrier for entry is the time it takes to collect your traps and put them up around your first hook, and it's also way harder to proxy camp with a ton of traps because you can only carry two at a time without addons. With all traps carried at the start of the match, there is now no barrier for entry, you can immediately set up everything you have around that hook.
The barrier for entry is also the same for basement Trapper, though that one is a little easier since you only really need to set up three traps.
This makes these strategies, which aren't the healthiest in the game even if they aren't necessarily "too strong", a little less accessible. Improvements to Trapper should look to keep them a little less accessible, rather than making them more so.
For example, there are two ways of addressing Trapper's problem with his early game that would both address the issue without causing the same issues as just giving him all his traps from the word go;
- Have traps spawn closer to the centre of the map, trending towards the side that Trapper started on. No more traps spawning on the opposite side of the map, or against map borders. Much easier to move around and juggle your traps by placing some and picking up others.
- Have traps spawn in loops already, not in random spots. They don't have to be optimal, they can just be on the side of pallet loops and next to some windows, but this would allow Trapper to just walk by and set some traps without having to pick them up first.
Neither of these suggestions would improve Trapper's ability to employ the two strategies we've been talking about, but they would do a lot to help Trapper with his legitimate problems.
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Cause devs have no idea whats good for the game. Otherwise you cannot explain such changes while ignoring everything said so far.
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why do people always say "improve traps spawns" and not "why even have trap spawns"?
just give him a more engaging way to get more traps if starting with all of them is such an issue.
still think making him thor and pull the traps to him like mjolnir is a good idea (only disarmed ones). but the timer idea I gave earlier in this discussion is also fine.
maybe something else... but can we at least entertain the idea of not going to a place, picking up a trap, walking back and then continue doing what we were doing? that entire tangent required to have our power? can we just think of a new thing? one that keeps us in the game? or that takes at max as much time as opening a locker?
I think reinami is right in giving him a minimum range between traps, so he can't just lock down shack or some other small area and needs to spread them out a bit. there. he can still play base defense but by nature the base needs to be bigger. so now we can afford to make it do stuff in chase aswell. so an actual chase trapper can exist.
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Two reasons.
The first and biggest reason is that the devs have stated they do not want to fundamentally alter Trapper's power. I'm sympathetic to this, their reasoning is valid and it isn't really necessary to fundamentally change him either.
The second and smaller reason is, as mentioned above, that you don't need to. Part of Trapper's gameplay and core identity is juggling traps, that's just who he is; it doesn't need to be as annoying and detrimental to you as it currently is, but it probably should remain. I wouldn't be against a reasonable trap-recall system (though it being tied to lockers would be more thematically appropriate than giving him telekinesis for them), but it's also not the only way to fix him.
Better trap spawns would fix the problem. You personally may not enjoy playing Trapper because of collecting traps, but that doesn't make it an actual flaw.
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1- you do not fundamentally change trapper's power by changing how he gets his traps. his traps still do the same thing. you just make it more convenient. it's like doctor not needing to switch modes anymore, convenience. don't know if you were around for that...
2- it can be anything really... but trap telekinesis also solves travel time by default (you can make the trap take longer to reach the further away it is to compensate. also put it in a timer so you can't just spam it. the more I think about it, the more I think it's actually a good idea)
better trap spawns to me are just a bandaid on top of a deep wound. they gotta actually fix the issue at some point, might aswell do it now and skip the bandaid.
I complain about trappers issues, because I love trapper, and I want him to be the best he can.
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The fact remains that the devs want to keep him as close to how he is right now as possible, and that's a fair thing to want. Considering it's not necessary for fixing him, it's fair to work within those constraints.
The "deep wound" you're referring to is the time he has to invest to set up, not the fact that he has to collect traps at all. If the traps were in the right spots, the wound is stitched up just as well. Better, even, because it doesn't leave the metaphorical scar of removing a part of his identity.
They have to actually fix the issue at some point, you're right. Better trap spawns is the fix.
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guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
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When I saw Trapper got 2 more traps I thought "oh cool, 2 more traps for me to go to corner of map away from survivors to grab if I want to use them." I don't think Trapper should start with all traps, that basically guarantees 1 hook death for first survivor caught - most players go for the easiest way to secure a kill even if it isn't the best play. I do think they need to adjust the trap spawns so he doesn't have to go all the way to a dead zone in a corner to pick up his traps. I think traps should spawn near gens. Spawns near gens would be on the way when he's patrolling so he doesn't have to move away from where survivors would be and it also would help new players learning to patrol the gens. Being near gens also accounts for maps like Midwich where gens spawn around the edge instead of the middle. If they moved spawns near gens and spawned traps could start armed that would be great for Trapper.
He needs some other buffs that would help him for all Trapper players.
Since they've nerfed him with realm beyond removing ground cover and new maps being brighter they should increase ground cover on all maps and make his traps blend more with the ground of the map. Most times either the survivor can see the trap from far away or it ends up being in predictable spot that's easy to avoid - they only step in it because not paying any attention or made bad choice in path during chase. It doesn't need to be invisible, just not stick out like it does now.
The RNG to escape a trap needs to go, just make it so it's a set number of seconds to get out of a trap. Also give the survivor deep wound for stepping in a trap that way if they're already injured they need to deal with consequences of stepping in trap even if they escape.
I'm against limiting range of traps that are close to eachother. I love doing back to back window traps or on Yamaoka doing window into doorway on some tiles where they are basically right next to eachother with some grass. It's hilarious seeing someone step in one, escape, and then immediately step in the next one. Or they see first one, disarm it but then immediately step in second one. Limiting range would remove some of the random fun trap placement and that would be a bummer.
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As the trapper is now, i think thats the only valid way to play him, if you want to have a fair chance.
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