What player agency is left?

Not to say there is none, but what control does killer have at this point that is not desired/called for by some survivors to be heavily regulated or limited?

Choice of target: some survivor suggest that killers not be capable of repeatedly targeting the weak link or even the most problematic survivor. As it stands, this choice is already being influenced by the endurance status granted by several perks for various situation and (however effective or not) base bt discouraging the killer.

How many killers would continue to play if forced to take what is currently the least beneficial option?

Choice of action: this one is already fairly limited in option and I mean in reference to killing survivors. What are our options; hooks, mori, and bleedout. In most cases the choice comes down to attempting hooks for a stage 3 payoff or counting on poor survivor performance and bad team altruism for bleedouts. The mori was already changed for survivor benefit and many would like to see something similar for bleedouts despite it being an altruism issue.

Is there really any choice between hooks or failed altruism which can be consitantly applied?

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Comments

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,793

    Choice of target: Not feasible, also the fact that someone suggested it doesn't mean its in anyway a common request.

    Choice of action: As a survivor I have to do gens, I don't have some secondary option where I can find some welding tools and cut the door open. You win the game by putting survivors on hooks, you just can't stand in front of them for two minutes now.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167

    Firstly, I actually enjoyed the pressure the one hook mori provided as survivor. The need to approach the match cautiously and be wary of the Killer's presence until that knowledge was determined was an element I thought was well implemented as a survivor.

    Secondly, I completely agree with playing as desired. Im not concerned with why some players complain as much as how the devs are responding to the complaints. While not every attempt to address certain issues have made it to live, some of the proposed solutions have been questionable. The saving grace to this has been ptb players quickly finding and calling out the exploits.

  • WeenieDog
    WeenieDog Member Posts: 2,184
    edited September 2023

    I guess that just comes with playing a live service game. Things just come and go. I'm sure there are some survivors out there that miss the old hook tech, where you could dodge hits by vacuuming to actions like breaking hooks.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,749

    yeah, not trying to validate those strats and making them a part of balancing, but those are killer nerfs at the end of the day. but the changes will lower kill rates and maybe that makes them consider doing balance changes across the board who knows?

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,749

    it's on survivors' end to punish camping, by doing gens and trading hooks last second especially with hook grabs gone, with some exceptions like basement, hooks in dead zones, oneshot killers etc. to be fair that's not possible for solo queue, so i tend to think that maybe basekit kindred, speedy gens against camping killers and/or slower entity progression against campers would be a better idea. though bhvr don't seem to think you as the hooked survivor shouldn't depend on soloq teammates and the killer to be able to... play the game essentially. the "tactics" should be discouraged instead of being made borderline impossible. you can camp and tunnel but that will lose you the match type of thing...

  • mecca
    mecca Member Posts: 313

    But it is perfectly OK for survivors to have no agency. (ie. camping, bleeding out, tunneling)

    All survivor strategies have been completely removed. (ie. stealth, looping, ......)

    Killers can handle a very small pat on the hand now after survivors have taken a dragged out beating.

  • solarjin1
    solarjin1 Member Posts: 2,135

    "Firstly, I actually enjoyed the pressure the one hook mori provided as survivor. The need to approach the match cautiously and be wary of the Killer's presence until that knowledge was determined was an element I thought was well implemented as a survivor."

    mhh...This might be off topic

    but I'm starting to understand why u say solo q is fine in these other threads.

  • Donkeybqlls
    Donkeybqlls Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 81

    I agree 100% regarding the 3gen and camping.

    The 3 gen is just bad gen management so it only seems fair that this blows up in your face in the end. At this point the killer won ... is that really so bad?

    Regarding the camping, sure I dont like the smelly breath in my face on top of a hook through my body, but I get it as a last resort for the killer to get a kill in there at the end. If you start camping from the start that's just sad you're settling for 3 escapees but ok whatever floats you boat.

    I just think it's sad they keep trying to find ways to make the game "not over till it's over" for survs, even if I'm a surv main. Killer should have fun too ... if you really want to add these mechanics, why don't you add a gen to be fixed before they can escape if 2 or more survivors spend to much time before the finish line. Now that wouldn't seem fair either right ... but why should killers not get a last chance

  • Predated
    Predated Member Posts: 2,976

    I mean, here are some things taken away from survivors:

    Choice of loop: Some killers suggest that survivors not be capable of repeatedly vaulting the same windows or even the most problematic window. As it stands, this choice is already being influenced by the window blocker by several perks for various situations and basekit window blockers discouraging the survivor from staying at the same loop.

    How many survivors would continue to play if forced to take what is currently the least beneficial option?

    Choice of action: this one is already fairly limited in option, and I mean in reference to escaping the trial. What are our options? Finishing all gens, finding hatch. In most cases, the choice comes down to attempt finishing gens before you reach stage 3 on a hook, or counting on poor killer performance and bad strategy for long chases. The BNP was already changed for killer benefit, and many would like to see something similar to hatch, despite it being a strategic issue.

    Is there really any choice between gens or bad strategy which can be consistantly applied?


    If your logic holds up for the opposing team, then your logic is flawed.

    Yes, good coordinated survivors are extremely difficult and require a high mobility killer that either benefits from obstacles, or that turns obstacles against survivors. But good coordinated survivors are not that common, odds are more likely that you find pairs of 2 survivors who are good at cooperating together, and a soloq fill that is basically RNG if they can coordinate well or horribly with their teammates.

    The main issue in DBD from a survivor perspective, is that 1 survivor exits the game before 4 minutes have passed, having only been able to do chase and nothing else, which in most cases means that 3 survivors cannot finish the remaining gens without sacrificing another survivor. While the first survivor dies with at most 11k points out of 40k possible points. And survivors have no basekit strategy to combat this issue.

    The main issue in DBD from a killer perspective, is that they need someone dead before the survivors can work on the final gen if they want to consistently have 2+ kills in a game. However, the problem there is that while you want 1 survivor dead, everyone else has 0 hooks.

    So optimally, you want to be able to 1 hook at least 3 survivors, and kill 1 survivor before survivors can work on the final gen. This is best done by rewarding the killer with a benefit to get back into the game after hooking, but also by punishing the killer more harshly when they stay when hooking.

    Before gens were pushed to 90 seconds, if a killer camped early, survivors could punish the killer by rushing gens. Currently this isnt really possible.

  • Predated
    Predated Member Posts: 2,976

    The problem with 3 genning, is that killers can enforce it. Especially certain killers. It's not bad gen management if the killer 3-gens from the start.

    Camping early on no longer grants survivors a guaranteed 3 escapes unless they are coordinated survivors, which is rare. Let alone that the survivor on hook gets less than 8k BP in a game where you can get 18k BP for just playing. Both are issues.

    Survivors are the ones that have an endgoal. If survivors dont have a "it's not over till it's over" option, they literally have no incentive to try until they are the last one remaining for hatch. Since solo survivors both want the hatch if 2 survivors remain with 3 gens remaining, then you have survivors hiding from the killer at all costs without progressing the game. And you can't punish them for it, as it's not holding the game hostage.

    And I agree that killers should have fun too, but if killer fun is at the cost of survivor chances of escaping, then you have a problem that needs to be solved.

    As for a mechanic that killers need, adding an extra gen is overkill, but they need a mechanic that rewards them for hooking a survivor. Like 10 seconds of 10% haste to give them an incentive to run back into the match. Or guaranteed bloodlust 1 the moment they enter a chase within 60 seconds after hooking which remains for 30 seconds even if you kick any pallets (which to me makes a lot more sense than Bloodlust appearing after 30 seconds of not kicking any pallets or using your power in a chase)

  • mecca
    mecca Member Posts: 313

    DBD. If you actually played survivor at all you would actually know killers have aura perks, they have Ultimate Weapon! Most killers have anti-loop powers, so there's simply nothing going for survivors.

  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,126

    Possible replies to your experience would be:

    1) Use chase perks

    2) Know when to leave chase

    3) Lower your win condition from Kills to hooks

    4) Skill issue

    Ironically, 8-12 hook games would be possible for weaker Killers if Survivors you are matched against are less experienced or skilled which would let you end chases faster. In order for a long and “fun” game for all, you cannot be on the same skill level or weaker than your opponents as Killer.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 379

    Part of the problem is that currently camping/tunneling often works with the lower tiered killers. If someone chooses to do so, and play to win, then their MMR is going to go up because of it. This also means that a lowered skill player can use the same tactic and there MMR will go up.

    Once someone's MMR is up because of using it, it's going to be harder and harder to play for hooks. The survivors will be at a higher skill level at that point. Matchmaking can still be wonky but that's another issue.

    I play a lot of pig and m1 killers. Most of the time I have no issues playing for hooks. It's because I don't play to win with them, by what MMR considers a win anyway. So I'm often matched with people lower or equal to me.

    If I want to play for kills then I will switch to stronger killers. That's what they're good for. Hopefully one day all maps can be balanced and some of the lower tier killers looked into and buffed if needed. With camping/tunneling able to bring those kill rates up though, it's hard to say who or what needs changed.

  • xPrinceHarlequinx
    xPrinceHarlequinx Member Posts: 180

    I agree with most of this. One of the two points I do not agree with is "but if killer fun is at the cost of survivor chances to escape" portion. The killer and the survivor's goals are conflicting goals. Odds are the fun of both sides will always come at a cost of the other's chance of succeeding because that's just how this game is designed. That being said, neither side should be able to completely delete the other sides experience.

    If BHVR is looking to turn this in to a game where 12 hooks is the goal for balance, that is perfectly fine by me. It is what I go for, which frequently leads to me losing games almost on purpose, because I want everyone to have a good time, even if that means I lose.

    They need to find a way to incentivize that playstyle, and "haste" is not a suitable reward for doing so. They should rework pain res, and give a weaker version as a basekit incentive for each consecutive unique hook. Maybe like 10 percent regression on a random gen.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,174

    I usually play to win. Nobody plays to lose to be honest. I try almost always to go for as many hooks as possible. However, some perks and maps make this very hard to do and therefore I sometimes have to tunnel and camp. I think most players can get behind that.

  • Predated
    Predated Member Posts: 2,976

    Oh yeah, but the thing is, that survivors HAVE to be able to escape. It's why early game is so stacked in favor of survivor, and survivors who maintain that early game momentum are the ones who can escape with 4 people. The killer needs to be able to break that momentum in a way that is fun for the killer, for sure. But if a killer is having fun and easily breaks the momentum without really doing anything special, then it's a problem. Because then literally anyone can play that killer and guarantee 2+ kills. A few examples that currently are in the live version(but not in the PTB), is a Bubba facecamping at 4 or 5 gens with Dead Lock, NOED, Corrupt Intervention and either Insidious or No Way Out. Then that is a killer who can, at basically 0 cost, kill 2 survivors.

    But the same is true for the opposite. Survivors shouldnt be able to do 5 gens uninterrupted without the killer being forced to walk across the map all the time.


    As for Pain Res being basekit, no, I dont really think that is needed. We already have a small portion of Pop basekit and there are plenty of generator regression methods that would easily be overkill if there is even a 5% basekit pain res. 10% haste for 10 seconds is insane value for all non-mobility killers. It basically means that a killer is capable of walking 51 meters instead of 46 meters. It means that a killer can close a 5 meter gap between survivor and killer in 5 seconds, rather than 8. With the addition of a free bloodlust 1 if they manage to enter chase in that 10 second period, they would be closing that in 3.5 seconds.

    It basically allows killers to get back into the game and prevent a gen from being finished, where it normally would be finished.

    Haste is truly an underrated killer effect that people consider weak, but that isnt because Haste is weak, its because activating Haste for killers is unconventional.

  • NerfDHalready
    NerfDHalready Member Posts: 1,749

    All survivor strategies have been completely removed. (ie. stealth, looping, ......)

    *laughs in mft*

  • rvzrvzrvz
    rvzrvzrvz Member Posts: 940

    Game is designed for survivors to get caught fairly quickly with bloodlust and unsafe pallets everywhere, dying on first hook because it's impossible to save against a bubba/myers/anything with a one shot ability was the lamest thing in the game, talk about player agency..

    16m is kindred radius it's really not that bad you can still proxy camp easily, it's sad that we're crying to keep facecamp in the game

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 379

    Well that's kind of why the anti camp mechanic is a good thing. Right now some people feel forced to camp or tunnel so they do it. Then there MMR can become inflated because of it. Making it less effective can hopefully show what kill rates can be more like when it doesn't work. Then maybe they can buff some killers accordingly.

    I don't do it simply because it doesn't feel like winning to me. I just figured I played badly or maybe got bad rng and lost the match. Or I might've gotten matched with players far above my skill.

    I don't blame anyone for doing it. It's in the game and is currently effective. It just makes it hard to bring any kind of balance around hooking people while it's still used so often.

  • DemonDaddy
    DemonDaddy Member Posts: 4,167

    It should also be acknowledged that those perks have requirments, conditions, limitations, or timed windows for counterplay to be implemented. Thats before having to use perks as a counter measure. In the time when BBQ was the meta and to this day, I utilize the built in telegraph to employ counterplay before its activated.

    Im personally not seeing ultimate weapon enough to address by changing my build, but we do have a perk that directly counters the scream detection.

    Overall I think the devs have been extremely cautious about giving killers reusable detection perks and attaching some form of action requirements.

  • coco_shotz
    coco_shotz Member Posts: 249

    The issue with the game mainly is the design. Tactics like genrush, tunnel, camp and slugging are just far too easy to exploit in a game like this. It's worse than a fighting game when it comes to capitalizing on mistakes from the other side. Without really redesigning the core concepts of the entire game there is really no way to fully get rid of these playstyles.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,174

    Buff some killers accordingly. That's what i constantly hear. How do you buff killers accordingly? Right now it seems the answer is to literally make killers faster base. Maps are problematic. That's a fact. Survivors have perks that make that problem even worse. How do you buff a character like Pig to compensate for this? Make her crouching faster? Make the ambush faster? That won't help. She's still an m1 killer that has to run around the map.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,174

    I don't Taki it to any extreme. But going for lots of hooks seems to be BHVRs vision for the game right now. Every survivor should have enough time to play and have fun.

    I agree with that, however, the more survivors are in the trial. The harder the trail gets for the killer. There is no better slowdown that a killed survivor.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,792

    But what are you actually basing that on? All we've seen is BHVR tackling the extreme edge cases of the cheaper gameplay tactics- IE, immediately downing someone as soon as they're unhooked, and standing immobile by the hook until they die.

    Camping and tunnelling are still possible, they're just weaker and have counterplay/obstacles. There's no indication that BHVR are trying to force 12 hook matches on everyone, they're literally just addressing the most problematic edge cases of killers trying to circumvent skill expression to get easy value.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,174

    I cant base on any facts, because the only stats we have are not expressive enough for a logical argument. Im basing my argument on the recent changes to the survivor role. Longer playing time for survivors seems to be the route the game is goiung right now. Dont get me wrong, im all for that, as i said before. I do however think that there needs to be compensation for that on killers side. The early game mechanic that was once mentioned didnt even make it to any ptb. Am i wrong? It could have at least been given a try.

    The contrast to being downed immeidately after being unhooked is now that survivors mostly bombrush the hook and dont think about any form of safe unhook. Its most of the time the best play and sometimes definitely the best play (deliverance). Sometimes DBD only goes in extremes. Look at end game. BT at base: you have a good chance to just make it out without the killer having any counterplay. No BT at base: you getting downed right at the hook, without anyone having the actual BT.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 379

    There are lots of things they could try but at the end of the day, I don't know. I wouldn't ever deny that some maps are a problem. It's always been an issue but I do think some have gotten better.

    As far as individual killer buffs it's hard to say what could help. So long as camping/tunneling can get basic killers a win, then it's hard to make bigger changes without making it even stronger.

    For pig they could try changing what traps do. Make the head pop less likely to happen, but still within possibility, but add a movement speed / action speed penalty while they have a trap on. This will make it take longer to run to a machine and remove the trap. Not removing it will result in major slowdowns across the board. It isn't going to do a lot for her chase power but should help make her game slowdown a little stronger. Again though, something like this would just make tunneling stronger. Knowing that the unhooked survivor with a trap is just going to run slower.

    Personally, I think some killers are just meant to be fun. If you want to win then playing weaker killers is just going to hinder you. If you don't want to camp/tunnel then either don't do it or play a stronger killer.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 4,174

    You just showed that you don't understand the problem the pig faces right now. Her slowdown is absutely fine. Her problem is her applying the slowdown. Making the traps better slowdown doesn't help when you get no downs.

    That's just one killer though.

    Every killer should be able to get wins. Saying that if you play a weaker killer you just shouldn't expect to have a chance at winning is bad. Very bad. People want to win. If they can't play their favourite character and win with them, they are encouraged to stop playing. What is fun about playing and knowing that you will eventually lose?

    Basicly you say: just play blight.

    Sorry but I disagree heavily.