Hot Take: Hope is overpowered
+7% Permanent Haste for the rest of the whole end game while not effected by Exhausted or anything really is too strong.
It makes any M1 Killers technicaly -45% slower to catch up and any 110% Killers almost as fast as them.
You can stack it with other hastes and you can pair it with any Exhaustion perk as well.
I think it should be max 5% and while not exhausted.
Its end game perk yes, it might not get value every game yes, but when it works its almost free escape.
Comments
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The only issue with it is it stacking with other haste perks. On its own it's fine.
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Yeah , this is definitely hot take.
Hope is fine. The only problem i see , it should not stack with other haste effects.
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Why would you pick an endgame perk if it's not strong ? It's not even that good it's countered by NOED and bloodlust is basekit
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Nobody cared about Hope until MFT was released... Nobody even talked about her...
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your not wrong. the perk is end game perk. it is overpowered because you need finish all 5 gens to get the effect. It is like saying Adrenaline is overpowered because it instantly heals you and grants sprint burst.
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It's not. It just feels bad to be against sometimes, just like noed and like every other powerful effect tied to a hard to get/out of your full control effect.
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No one complained about “Hope” over the past many years until after the advent of “MFT.”
I can say that "NOED" is overpowered and needs a nerf because it is paired with "No Way Out".
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Agreed, as a killer main I can say Hope is fine. I’ve never minded it, but put that with MFt and the survivor can tbag and loop me almost indefinitely at some points on an M1 Killer like Myers. But with Boons logic, a killer taking 2/4 perks is a lot different than a survivor taking 2/16 perks of combined survivors
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I can say that "NOED" is overpowered and needs a nerf because it is paired with "No Way Out".
I don't think that NOED is overpowered, since it's endgame only and it is gambling a bit, since all totems could have already been cleansed by then. Also, if I remember correctly, the totems Aura didn't reveal/expand a few years ago when I played. So it has been kinda nerfed already? I don't remember if it was displayed as a hex totem already from the beginning before, but the expanding thing is new as far as i regcognize. Changes have been made, that's for sure.
For "Hope" goes the same in my opinion; it's endgame only. So you run the most time of the game "with three perks only", just like the killer does with NOED.
My opinion is that perks like these which work only for a short ammount of time have to be powerful. And also, they make the endgame a more thrilling experience and can turn the tide for either side.
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For a community that commonly accepts that NOED is "op" or "dirty" when it can be pre-emptively countered by doing totems , and in case you didn't, you can still do it when its active without having to as much as search for it.
It makes no sense to not qualify survivor endgame perks as overpowered too, Hope giving you a 7% permanent speedboost for finishing up all the gens is quite frankly ridiculous and just guarantees an escape if theres more than 2 survivors in the end game, essentially bypassing the final leg of the match for free.
People keep making the argument of "well hope and adren weren't complained in the past, idk why you'd think its op now!!!" its quite frankly very simple, back then (DH,DS,UB,BT Meta) people didn't run adren or hope in the quantity we see today so nobody had enough experience against them to formulate an opinion and as it turns out, perks with extremely strong effects are to nobodies surprise, overpowered.
The extremely high pickrate of survivor end-game perks also indicates theres something wrong with the core game, only a lunatic would hamper themselves for 90% of the match with 2 less perks if they didn't think they'd make it to end-game, this is evidenced by killrates being in the high 40s to low 50s, and survivors being able to pull off 4man escapes in ~3 minutes in normal matches.
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They didn't say NOED is overpowered. Their argument and what they meant was "We can't say NOED is overpowered just because it's a strong combo when you bring No Way Out with it." Drawing a parallel between "MFT+Hope" vs. "NOED+No Way Out". Just because MFT exists now doesn't make Hope overpowered or nerf-worthy all of a sudden. Hope has been the same perk for a long time. This means MFT should be dealt with individually. Hope wasn't even considered strong until the MFT combo was possible.
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Just say you hate MFT with Hope
It is normal for survivors to be rewarded for completing their goals
No one complained about the perks that reward killers for completing their goals. As for NOED, it never rewards you for your success, unlike your failure to prevent survivors from repairing all the generators, and its previous version was much worse than now.(NOED was not a Hex perk It was active throughout the rest of the match and gave the killer 5% speed, and you could shoot down survivors with just one hit. this is its first release, and there was a bug that made it activate after activating the exit doors and not after opening the exit doors)
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While Hope is active and survivor is injured, Hope applies permanent exhausted? Thematically you're ignoring the pain to keep running faster in a final bid to escape, but you're at your limit with nothing left, with only your "hope" to keep you going...
Simple change to resolve the problem?
Although that is still actually a nerf as it also kills it when injured with any other exhaustion perk... most notably Dead Hard, and Blood Rush can't get you to both Hope and MFT either, or get you your exhaustion perk back. Is that a reasonable sacrifice? Adrenaline is still good with it.
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EDIT: The problem with preventing Haste effects from stacking on Survivors is you get a lot of grey areas, like Clown Antidote, Sprint Burst/Lithe/BL and both Basekit/Perk Borrowed Time, Boon: Dark Theory becomes even more pointless, Hope and an Exhaustion Perk. These interactions are all fine in of themselves... and what you want to avoid is a situation when the code has to say "you can have all these stacking effects", then branch off the code to say "except MFT".
It's like For The People needs to be an "exchange of a health state" instead of a "healing a health state" for the purpose of game effects. It's not implemeneted like this as we see with Buckle Up, but it should be because FTP working with Buckle Up but not MFT doesn't make sense, and likely has this ugly exception written in to code.
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I never understood the "prevent Haste effects from stacking" trend that started all of a sudden. Why are we balancing the whole game and the haste status effect around MFT all of a sudden? Haste hasn't been a problem until survivors had easy access to haste via MFT. This means if MFT is a problem it should be dealt with separately. There are already bunch of useless haste perks like Dark Theory, Blood Pact etc. and this would make them even more meaningless. So I agree with you.
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Tell me again what kind of goal you've acheived when the killer smacks you and you're rewarded with 3% haste + 9% action speed boost.
What kind of goal did you acheive by getting hooked and being rewarded with DS , OTR, DH, and a couple other "on hook / unhooked" perks.
What kind of goal did you acheive by *literally tapping shift* to run to be rewarded with SB?
What goal did you acheive by vaulting a window and being rewarded with Lithe?
What goal did you acheive by *sliding down a 2 foot tall hill* and being rewarded with no stagger + 150% speed via Balanced?
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You know very well the "its normal for survivors to be rewarded..." spiel is bullcrap , a good and balanced game has elements of back n forth , Perks that let you win harder like hope and Adren fundamentally break the back n forth element and as such, break the game balance. The game isn't over because you popped all gens, a perk giving you a free escape because you did 90% of your objective is fundamentally broken.
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It’s a dollarstore version of Adrenaline.
The perk is fine. It’s only problematic with MTF.
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Hope with 7% is fine.
MFT just shouldn't be stacking with Haste perks.
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We were talking about Endgame and I did not defend MFT at all.
Well, Hope is a perk that rewards you for completing your goal and the same goes for “No Way Out,” so no one is complaining about any of it because it rewards your successes.
So, as long as no one complained about Hope until after the MFT was released, this means that the problem is in the MFT, not Hope.
Therefore, no one guarantees that you will survive until the end game, and this is the reason why some do not choose Hope, because they prefer to obtain perks that will benefit them throughout the game.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
hopes strong, only remotely OP with mft.
on the 110 killer comment, duh. thats the point of 110 killers. they dont NEED to gain distance, they just need some consistent los and they can down you with ease. Deathslingers got an 18m range with a 2m margin for error at max range. he will be able to catch a hope user with some trouble.
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You're still missing the point.
Hope and adren came to the spotlight because the meta shifted.
we went from DS-DH-UB-BT to current injured chase meta.
Of course nobody complained about hope or adren back then because *it was never used* , you can't formulate an opinion on something that *wasn't used back then* , Now hope and adren are used in almost every build and its plain obvious to see that "Win harder" perks are fundamentally unhealthy.
Permanent haste effects in general are fundamentally unhealthy.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
So by your logic "Blood Pact - Boon: Dark Theory - Teamwork: Power of Two" are all unhealthy.
If you said no because these perks have requirements and conditions, then you are contradicting yourself because Hope has a requirement that requires you to stay alive until all the generators are repaired, which is the longest requirement of all the speed perks.
If you said yes, this indicates that you are only arguing and not discussing because you do not have a convincing argument that these mentioned perks will significantly affect the match and in some cases may harm the team.
It is natural for the perks used by players to change (if the survivor has the endurance after being rescued from the hook, then why should he use BT? And also DS)
The game changes, so you have to change your way of playing as well. You can't play the same way for a long time and then expect good results. Survivors have tools to repair generators faster, so you have to focus on that and that.
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Here we go with blatant false equivalancy arguments...
The requirements to activate Bloodpact, Dark theory and Power of two, require you to do something you wouldn't normally do in regular gameplay to activate their effects.
Getting hit, doing gens, etc etc ***are not valid*** limiting requirements , they are things you expect to happen, and you're guaranteed to get value out of the perk just for having it equipped.
A permanent 7% speed boost because the match is 80-90% finished is fundamentally unhealthy , it just took the meta to change from Super unhealthy pre-6.1 to Unhealthy in post 7.0 for people to start realizing that perks that guarantee escapes aren't balanced in the slightest.
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Well... the logic is you basically take a perk that has no benefit throughout most of the game for a strong bonus at the end.
There are not many killer games where you get to end game and are looking at more than 1 more kill than you already have, unless you have built for it with a combination of NOED, blood warden and/or no way out. Usually, the killer wins before the generators are powered... if more than 1 survivor is alive when the gens are powered, you are probably not getting a 4k.
Hope and Adrenaline MUST have strong bonuses that really help you escape at end game to offset the fact you can well lose before you even get there. If you do get there, you get a powerful haste buff to make it a lot easier for you to escape. The Killer is still faster, but will have a much harder time catching you, so it isn't truly free escapes... but it is a strong advantage that without it, the perk is literally useless.
Now is it too easy to get to end game? That's a different argument, but the perks themselves are fine... if you ignore the MFT bonus...
So my point is, if you've made it to end game as Killer when you had no end game perks, your main objective is already lost, and you're trying to grab what you can at this point. If the survivors have beaten you whilst they do have end game perks, they should be in the winning position, because you had your window to win while their perks weren't active.
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Hope is ok. Has strong effect, but at the end game, where most teammates should be killed (in avarage).
Problem is that haste effects stacks. Those should never stack, but instead ot should be the strongest active effect being in use.
(And mft haste should be 2% but boon haste should be 3%)
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Two beginnings are fighting in me about hope.
First one: hope is endgame perk and you kinda should deserve and earn it, so it should be strong.
Second one: i don't think survivor should be faster than 105% with any perks. 7% is literally free escape and player even shouldn't be good with looping. One or two times in a week i usually have a match where survivor with Hope just hold w from one side of the map to another, maybe with one predrop, and make it to gates anyway.
Maybe I would agree with 7% if starting all gens would really be a difficult task, and not one that can be completed in less than 3 minutes. Current meta "i'm doing gen no matter what just to become untouchable in 4-5 minutes from the start" is boring as hell.
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The thing with endgame survivor perks is that you're essentially saying "I expect to make it to end-game with only 2-3 perks because right now the game is that easy"
This is reflected in the loadouts and killrates, under no circumstance should survivors feel like they will pump out all 5 gens consistently enough to bring Hope and Adren that often.
Hope and Adren being this opressively strong just compound the problem because killer has no realistic way of coming back or even securing a few couple kills EVEN IF killer also brings an end-game delay build.
both perks essentially remove the agency in the final 10-20% of the match to the point where they might aswell just teleport the survivor to the exit gates as soon as all 5 gens get completed.
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If hope is OP, then that's skill issue. Most games where I win last gen does not even pop. In those game survivors having hope or adrenaline just makes it that much easier for me
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Hope itself is fine, its the stacking that makes it op with say made for this. Both perks tbh with their haste stacking potential are actually huge design limiters, like imagine if there was another super easy haste effect like made for this? It would be impossible to add.
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You are unable to kill a survivor who can only use 3 perks before the end game?
No Gunrush perks No any healing perk No any support perks for other survivors and they only have one information perk
If you said MFT, congratulations, the problem is in MFT, not hope.
I mean they use 2 chase perks in most of the game and yet you put the blame on Hope
I can clearly see that the Survivors are skilled, and add MFT to them and things will become more difficult, so it is natural for them to survive until the end of the game.
Post edited by EQWashu on3 -
If there was a killer perk that gave killer a 7% perma haste because he killed 2 survivors, i can guarantee survivors would be up in arms demanding a nerf , yet the perks would be fundamentally the same, a permanent reward because you did a majority of your objectives.
Win harder perks like adren and hope are fundamentally unhealthy and there's no way around it.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Let's remember to keep the discussion civil, please. You can disagree with others, but please do so in a constructive and respectful manner. Thank you.
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Haste should just not stack and just get the highest value and that's it. Hope is fine as is on its own since it's an end game perk.
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1.16+.35+.28 = 1.79% Hope + MfT
If 2% of Survivors are (taken to the extreme) 'unkillable' in endgame, yet more easily killable in mid game, I'd say that isn't a problem. They don't expect to make it to endgame, they are relying on the law of large numbers to eventually have that single match where they get to use their haste perks where the Killer doesn't just facecamp the basement hook in endgame. Remember, you need to be alive and not on hook to use hope, and since (at the time of this post according to Nightlight) ~91% of Survivors don't bring Hope, that means the Killer can easily chase the other remaining 91% of players in endgame instead (if they failed to get a 4k before the gens pop anyways).
Using dead by stats eu, we can find gen protection stat, or when you win (as Killer) before the Survivors pop the final gen.
I'm sitting at 74%. Even if we were to assume the final Survivor gets hatch every time (3k), and I get 0k in the unprotected cases (as opposed to the full range of 0-4k after the final gen pops), I still have 55.5% kill rate, which is still killing more than half the Survs when stacking the stats of the deck against me, and I even let people go when they bribe me with BPS/Anni Cakes. Still, 74% of my matches, Survivors don't even get to use Hope. It's fine as is, and haste stacking with it is also fine, because of the opportunity cost (of picking another, better perk) prevents them from having anything of real value.
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I think tunning down Hope to 5% so it serves as a counter-measure NOED would be sweet.
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countermeasure? Then it means it should be 5% + permanent endurance (it does not mean invincibility, because endurance during bleeding does not protect you) - but maybe make it (map-wide) boon totem. Then it stands. Otherwise it's not comparable.
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The math you've done, im going to assume is missinformed.
Those percentages are how many people are running *the exact same build*.
This is the more correct dataset - https://nightlight.gg/perks/viewer?role=survivor&sort=pick&shown=pick&start_days=28
The data shows that in ~24k matches (96k survivors) -
26%~ used MFT (25k survivors)
25%~ used Adren (24k survivors)
9%~ used adren (8640)
The problem lies in the fact that survivors *aren't* easier to catch or outplay in mid-game because of the current meta giving you permanent benefits for being injured, and incase you break chase or get off hooks, you can slam gens 9% faster thanks to resi, then to top it all off they get an extra 7% Speed permanently because they inevitably cranked all the gens out.
Survivor endgame perks being used so frequently indicates that the core game *isn't* considered difficult by survivors, why else would you handicap yourself with less perks? Much like playing 1 perk nurse or blight, its because fundamentally the game is easy enough to not need the extra boost.
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I used the numbers you provided, but even if we were to assume every Hope user is also an MfT user, I already accounted for that in the previous post. Hope was still only in the ~9% usage rate among sweatlords self-reporting, hardly a menace across every match. You were specifically complaining about the combo of the 2, and I used the combos summed together that you listed (3 usage rates included Hope+MfT). ~91% of Survivors are still chaseable, downable, and killable in endgame. This also completely ignores how much easier it is to kill people down a perk slot.
If the Survivor is injured the entire match, then the macro skill of dropping chase, pressuring gens, snowballing downs, and so on is far more important than the micro skill of mindgames mid-chase. It then took significantly less time to down them in the deadzone they created by being forced to drop juicier pallets sooner, than being able to greed them while healthy. Too many people think micro/chase is the only skill in the game, and they self-report every time they complain about matches being too difficult on the whole.
Endgame perk selection most certainly doesn't correlate to SUCCESS in reaching endgame, merely the desire. I have proven with data that 74% matches won before endgame is most certainly easily attainable, and I'm not the greatest Killer. 26% success rate is garbage in terms of perk selection.
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It's 7%. You can still catch up the survivor and There are big differences when you give killers speed perks and give survivors speed perks.
Also, if you are having difficulty and hate facing Hope, why not go after another survivor?
It's just that you hate hard things, well DBD wasn't designed to be an easy game and that's why Skull merchant received a rework.
For a skilled player, he can deal with situations when they become difficult and not in his favor
In general, removing things just because you hate encountering them is not a good way to balance the game.
I can say that Hex: Devour Hope is OP because it's hard to find the hidden totem and because I hate facing him even though this perk rewards the killer for his hard work , and the game should alert me that the killer will use this perk so I can prepare a map
Act smartly when things get out of control and not blame everything
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Hope is not OP.
Hope incentivizes survivors to do all generators. Hope is balanced around the fact you need to do all 5 generators. It's a reward.
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7% on killer is fundamentally the same as 7% on survivor, you can't argue out of this lmao.
"Just go after someone else" is not valid advice, what do i do if the other guy also has hope? Just curl up and die?
There's a difference between being "hard" and impossible, catching a good looper is hard, catching someone running faster than you is impossible.
Nobody uses devour hope because it's quite literally a perk that can be removed before you even get value from it with the way totems spawn either out in the open or next to a gen, this while glowing like a las vegas casino sign. Don't try to compare hope to devour.
There's no "acting smart" about countering a free 7% speed bonus in the last 20% of the match.
Playing 110s? Enjoy a 70% longer chase... try to use your power? You slow down to a crawl and the survivor just lightning McQueens over to the next loop or out the door.
Playing 115s? Enjoy a 60% longer chase... and chances are your power doesn't have a catch up mechanic so youre stuck w keying (myers, pig, GF, Trapper,doctor etc etc).
Realistically my only option would be see into the future, notice the survivors will be running hope, and queue up as nurse/blight so the game doesn't even reach the the halfway mark before i 4k.
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If players crutch on camping/tunneling/Nurse/Blight, they never develop the skills to win without crutches. Hens and other Killers showcased being able to master Killer to the point of getting a ~92% winrate without power/camping/tunneling/excessive slugging. They don't have cheats, or anything you or I couldn't accomplish. Play to learn, learn to lose, and lose to learn, then we can improve our winrates to their levels.
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Alternatively,just dont let all the gens get done.
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Made for this quite a decent perk combined with hope i was quite surprised you can be pretty untouchable when using it against most of the killer roster
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This whole "recreate a golden age of DbD" thing has really backfired.
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